patrick.net

Heraclitusstudent says

This is not special to Italy. The same is true for France, England, the US, Japan, and basically all developed countries,

No not really. Specifically this is about mercantilism. The central players are China, Germany, and the US. The US being the consumer. China and Germany the exploiter. Economists do say the trade balance does not matter. But that is not entirely true as is the case with Germany and the PIGS or China and the US.

This started with Japan in the 70s and China since then. But this has been going on for decades, that DOES have a consequence.

Jobs that have been offshored were a consequence of this. For sure some were going to leave no matter what but not as many if there had been no mercantilism. China's people have been living at a much lower standard of living than they had to if the Yuan had not been devalued. This is true because their buying power has been greatly reduced.

It is all about the current accounts, which very mechanicaly record the mercantilism.

"In its heyday, Olivetti’s cutting-edge products enjoyed profit margins of up to 35 times production costs. It ploughed that income into research and innovation at laboratories in Ivrea and in California."

"Business magnate Carlo De Benedetti bought Olivetti in 1978, and enjoyed initial success. But in the early 1990s, as competition from the United States and Asia grew, De Benedetti began to focus on the rest of his portfolio: finance, food and publishing"

There you go.

thunderlips11 says

Yet Italy has two sportscar companies.

yup, I was thinking the same. Of course a town dependent on Olivetti is going to crash, Windows 95 wiped out native IT stuff globally.

"The biggest rise in exports was for the carmakers, which saw a 13.9 percent increase from February 2013, Istat said."

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/breaking_news_detail.asp?id=48945

http://www.saxobank.com/news/blog/surging-exports-catapult-italian-trade-surplus-higher

Non Sequitur my @ss.

Italy's NIIP/GDP ratio is negative 24%, much better than us.

As a percent of GDP, Italy’s net international investment position is relatively modest and has been broadly stable—with net liabilities reaching 24.5 percent of GDP in 2012.

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/publications/occasional_paper/2012/pdf/ocp107_en.pdf

They can support their economy much better than we can support ours.

We're $5.5T in the hole, -32% NIIP/GDP score.

http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/international/intinv/intinvnewsrelease.htm

indigenous says

China's people have been living at a much lower standard of living than they had to if the Yuan had not been devalued. This is true because their buying power has been greatly reduced.

my God that is perhaps the most ignorant, fact-free "A, thus B" construction I've seen you write, and that's saying something.

So obviously wrong I don't know how to respond, like I'm talking to a talking radish or something.

Power of a silly ideology to totally warp a mind I guess. Same thing happens with scientologists.

Heraclitusstudent says

And Obama has more coming, in the form of new free trade pacts.

yeah, Obama getting exposed to the crazy people at U of C econ department was not helpful.

Bellingham Bill says

my God that is perhaps the most ignorant "A, thus B" construction I've seen you write, and that's saying something.

Tell that to Michael Pettis, of course you are smarter than him too.

Bellingham Bill says

So obviously wrong I don't know how to respond, like I'm talking to a talking radish or something.

I would say a radish is more sentient than you...

Bellingham Bill says

Power of a silly ideology to totally warp a mind I guess. Same thing happens with scientologists.

Again with the projecting.

Bellingham Bill says

Non Sequitur my @ss.

That is surprising I guess all the money printing has boosted the sales of luxury items for Italy. I would not count on that in the future...

Italy is one of the PIGS for a reason.

vague appeal to authority noted

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

indigenous says

Specifically this is about mercantilism.

This has nothing to do with mercantilism.
Mercantilism is about countries managing trade, looking for a trade advantage. This is not what we see.

This is about competition with countries where wages are a tiny fraction of Americans.
This is about a trade system where companies send abroad their capital, their technology and their jobs, in exchange for a quick profits. Doing this, they pretty much destroyed developed countries industries, with the benediction of authorities in these countries.

In other words, developed countries have deliberately accepted the destruction of their industries. That's the opposite of mercantilism.

In the meantime they continued their keynesian BS as if debt 'stimulus' could replace what they have destroyed.

Heraclitusstudent says

This has nothing to do with mercantilism.

Mkay.

If you look into it you will see it is...

BTW do you ever order eggs benediction, hmm Aunt B that is some good eating.

indigenous says

Italy is one of the PIGS for a reason.

Hey, I love my pancetta.

Peter P says

Hey, I love my pancetta.

I love me some Prosciutto as well.

Bellingham Bill says

my God

I thought all of you were atheists.

thunderlips11 says

Yet Italy has two sportscar companies.

Lamborghini is owned by Audi (VW) and uses Audi()VW) components:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_V10

Ferrari is owned by Fiat so its still Italian.

Italy also has a large shipyard (Fincantieri).

The country even makes interesting planes (Piaggio Aero).

indigenous says

China and Germany the exploiter.

Is that a specifically Austrian term?

New Renter says

thunderlips11 says

Yet Italy has two sportscar companies.

Lamborghini is owned by Audi (VW) and uses Audi()VW) components:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_V10

Ferrari is owned by Fiat so its still Italian.

There's also Maserati, owned by Alfa Romeo, in turn owned by Fiat. All HQ'd in Italy.

Speaking of Fiat, they're now competing in the US domestic market.

Bellingham Bill says

"The biggest rise in exports was for the carmakers, which saw a 13.9 percent increase from February 2013, Istat said."

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/breaking_news_detail.asp?id=48945

http://www.saxobank.com/news/blog/surging-exports-catapult-italian-trade-surplus-higher

Non Sequitur my @ss.

Exactly BB. I've been seeing Fiat ads and dealerships now in the US, so they're expanding into the "Regular" vehicle market, not just high end.

thunderlips11 says

Is that a specifically Austrian term?

No

a lot of ph.D's and their Nobel prize winning theories on the downfall of European countries. a lot of thoughts (and fantasies) are put into those theories but mine is the best and the truth: they are slowly running out of colonial loot.

European countries invaded and looted other continents and kept the resources and technologies (developed using said free/robbed resources) to themselves.

it started with America. due to geographical luck, Europeans got to America first and the free slaves and natural resources jumped started the Industrial Revolution in England. then the robbing began.

robbing someone else was much easier back in the day since there were no nukes and they had the firepower. but these days even Indians have nukes (LOL) physical robbery can no longer be done. but there clever ways (i.e petrodollar, RE bubble scams).

but the elites have betrayed the peasants giving away the technologies in exchange for cheap labor/profit. now you need to ask WHY now? again it's because the elites themselves are running out of colonial loot. it makes perfect sense.

now only hard work and intelligence prevail. China and Asian countries better build a lot of nukes because when the pigs are hungry, they will go hunting (or maybe scavenging) this time? if history is of any indication of the future.

Mark D says

they are slowly running out of colonial loot.

Imperialism has been gone for quite a while, that does not add up?

I think it is more a growth of socialist characteristics in those countries, in other words they are eating the seed corn.

thunderlips11 says

Very conceivable the most socialist country in the world today is the US.

If you think Mark D says

they are slowly running out of colonial loot.

What colonial loot?
How long has it been since Europeans lost (or got rid) of colonies?
What loot were they taking out of North America? What about from African countries?

America is looting as much more today than anything Europe ever did. Look at what Chevron is doing in Africa, or Hedge funds in Argentina.

It's BS. Colonies are a huge cost and probably paying for themselves at best. And they resulted in huge immigration from countries that now speak their languages. Bad idea.

indigenous says

I think it is more a growth of socialist characteristics in those countries

If so, explain why France (very socialist) has a bigger economy than Britain (quite liberal).

Answer: because Britain valiantly decided to get rid of all its industries up-front and replace it by toxic finance, while France is managing the slow death of its own. France still has a car industry for example.

Heraclitusstudent says

And they resulted in huge immigration from countries that now speak their languages. Bad idea.

LOL, I hear ya.

But England did pretty good with its colonial empire. Yesterday via reddit I learned this happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_occupation_of_Manila

sheez, ~200 years later the Japanese do the same and now they're the bad guys : )

China, same thing. Especially the case in the mideast. What the Europeans did there stunk so much it still stinks a century later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calouste_Gulbenkian

indigenous says

the most socialist country in the world today is the US.

Bellingham Bill says

Heraclitusstudent says

And they resulted in huge immigration from countries that now speak their languages. Bad idea.

LOL, I hear ya.

But England did pretty good with its colonial empire. Yesterday via reddit I learned this happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_occupation_of_Manila

sheez, ~200 years later the Japanese do the same and now they're the bad guys : )

China, same thing. Especially the case in the mideast. What the Europeans did there stunk so much it still stinks a century later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calouste_Gulbenkian

In the good old days conquering distant lands made you a "Great Empire"
Today the same thing makes you an "Evil Imperialist"

Strategist says

In the good old days conquering distant lands made you a "Great Empire"

Today the same thing makes you an "Evil Imperialist"

Those were the good ole days! Conquering and pillaging... Just taking all the resources and enslaving whoever... Those were the days when you got something for winning. Now, you get nothing but some moral obligation. Then you have to twist yourself into knots figuring out how to get the loot while still appearing to have the moral high ground. If only things could be simple again.

turtledove says

Strategist says

In the good old days conquering distant lands made you a "Great Empire"

Today the same thing makes you an "Evil Imperialist"

Those were the good ole days! Conquering and pillaging... Just taking all the resources and enslaving whoever... Those were the days when you got something for winning. Now, you get nothing but some moral obligation. Then you have to twist yourself into knots figuring out how to get the loot while still appearing to have the moral high ground. If only things could be simple again.

And they became immortalized heroes with titles like "great"
Alexander the Great.....Genghiz Khan......Napolean Bonaparte....Ceaser....
Prophet Mohammad.....Peter the Great.
And look what poor American Presidents get accused of...baby killers....imperialists....its the oil.....regime change, and they did not even get to rape, plunder and pillage. Such a pity.

Heraclitusstudent says

If so, explain why France (very socialist) has a bigger economy than Britain (quite liberal).

They are almost equal?

Heraclitusstudent says

explain why France (very socialist) has a bigger economy than Britain

That would be because they sell more stuff than Britain.

Bellingham Bill says

Considering that the US numbers don't include public transfers to the po folk. And I would be suspicious that they show numbers after taxes for the rich folk.

But remember this is for a country with 300+ million people. With what 11 or 12 million on permanent disability. They say that one way or another 50% of the people are dependent on government to one degree or another.

How many countries can say that their government supports 150 million to one degree or another?

indigenous says

Heraclitusstudent says

If so, explain why France (very socialist) has a bigger economy than Britain (quite liberal).

They are almost equal?

Heraclitusstudent says

explain why France (very socialist) has a bigger economy than Britain

That would be because they sell more stuff than Britain.

There is not much difference between GDP and population of France/UK
California is the 8th largest economy in the world, and soon we will be overtaking France.
We should declare our Independence from the USA.

Strategist says

We should declare our Independence from the USA.

But can we declare our independence from Sacramento?

indigenous says

Strategist says

We should declare our Independence from the USA.

But can we declare our independence from Sacramento?

hhmmmm. I forgot about the losers up there.

Ask any Keynsian - yes we can outsource our way to prosperity! This is why most of the Keynsians in decision making positions have degrees in Political Science, Art and Humanities.

Aside.

I had a visit over the weekend of an Electrical Engineering professor. He teaches a lot of foreigners (obviously).

Recently a Chinese PHD student graduated, and went back to China, and he told my friend " You'd better be learning Chinese" before leaving.

True story.

Entitlemented says

You'd better be learning Chinese" before leaving.

True story.

Very arrogant of him...

indigenous says

How many countries can say that their government supports 150 million to one degree or another?

you . . . have a point : )

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=FHk

shows per-capita gov't spending is $24,000 or $2000/mo .

But to count DOD as part of socialism is stretching things, since socialism requires public provision of wealth, and there's no wealth being created there.

Now that, that's a remarkable graph.

Strategist says

California is the 8th largest economy in the world, and soon we will be overtaking France.

Very arrogant.
I'm counting CA is 10th at $1.95T

1 United States 16,244,600
2 China 8,358,400
3 Japan 5,960,180
4 Germany 3,425,956
5 France 2,611,221
6 UK 2,471,600
7 Brazil 2,254,109
8 Russia 2,029,812
9 Italy 2,013,392

And soon India will overtake you.

Heraclitusstudent says

Strategist says

California is the 8th largest economy in the world, and soon we will be overtaking France.

Very arrogant.

I'm counting CA is 10th at $1.95T

1 United States 16,244,600

2 China 8,358,400

3 Japan 5,960,180

4 Germany 3,425,956

5 France 2,611,221

6 UK 2,471,600

7 Brazil 2,254,109

8 Russia 2,029,812

9 Italy 2,013,392

And soon India will overtake you.

Old data.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_California

We are #8 folks. We will soon conquer France, then UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_California

Eventually the top economies will be:
China
India
USA
EU