patrick.net

thunderlips11 says

The Donbass is Russian, it was forced into Ukraine by the Soviets to balance out the Kulaks of Western Ukraine. Just like Crimea. The Donbass was Russian under Catherine the Great.

Parts of Russia used to be in Finland and Germany, and since I don't see Russia giving those back, why should Ukraine?

Ukraine should just round up all their Russians and march them across the Russian border. It's nothing that the Russians haven't already done many times over.

Peter P says

Perhaps this is why the Jewish state has been and will continue to be triumphant.

Silly me: I thought it was because Israel's enemies are frickin' disorganized, and because of the $3,000,000,000 in annual U.S. aid, totalling $115,000,000,000 cumulatively.

Do they have the radar and C3 systems (separate from the launcher), required to reasonably detect and shoot down targets at that altitude?

Also, do you think the Ukraine, worried about a possible Russian strike, no-fly zone, or even invasion, didn't place any BUKS along the Border?

Now the process of determining where the missile came from has begun. An unconfirmed video has emerged showing a pro-Russian group driving a 9K37 Buk-M1 SAM, a missile operating system which was developed by the Soviet Union and is designed to fight enemy aircraft, missiles, smart bombs, and unmanned aerial devices. The video allegedly shows the Buk-M1 driving back towards Russia yesterday, with two missiles missing from the system chamber. Here is the video in full:

Additional video obtained by the Daily Mail shows a similar vehicle moving the missiles into place.However, official confirmation has still not been received from intelligence officials.

I can't see anything in the video that ID's the drivers as DPR, or the destination. The DPR is apparently so well equipped, they even have flatbeds capable of carrying tracked SAM vehicles.

zzyzzx says

Parts of Russia used to be in Finland and Germany, and since I don't see Russia giving those back, why should Ukraine?

The difference is that those parts of Germany and Finland doesn't have an innate, Russian speaking minority.

The Donbass and Crimean People were never given a choice to either be attached to or leave Ukraine.

In recent times, the duly elected and world-recognized legitimate government they voted for was overthrown by $5B of US "Democracy" Promotion.

Also, those regions were never part of, or propagandized, by Austria into thinking of themselves other than Russian, unlike Western Ukraine.

Lvov, for example, was built by Poles and Jews who made a majority of the population in 1930s - where are they now, Bandera?

Peter P says

Strategist says

Religious wars never end well for anyone.

It may be a religious war for Israel's enemies but it is an existential war for Israel. Perhaps this is why the Jewish state has been and will continue to be triumphant.

Those who reject this-worldly reality to embrace other-worldly promises are doomed to fail in life. Is the afterlife any good? The review is not available on Yelp!

It may be an existential war for Israel, but not for the people of Israel. They can always come to America.
I still support Israel, not because God gave the land of Israel to them, but any victory on the part of Muslims over Israel will give added impetus to Muslims in other parts of the world to carry out even more violence.

thunderlips11 says

The difference is that those parts of Germany and Finland doesn't have an innate, Russian speaking minority.

So what? Is that the standard now? If there's a minority that speaks a different language, another country is allowed to annex that property?

thunderlips11 says

Do they have the radar and C3 systems (separate from the launcher), required to reasonably detect and shoot down targets at that altitude?

Also, do you think the Ukraine, worried about a possible Russian strike, no-fly zone, or even invasion, didn't place any BUKS along the Border?

lol--yes you can maintain your shadow of a doubt defense, but I think it's pretty clear that the vast proponderance of evidence points to Russian supplied rebels as shooting down the plane. Almost certainly it was a mistake, but that's one BIG eff up.

Strategist says

I still support Israel, not because God gave the land of Israel to them, but any victory on the part of Muslims over Israel will give added impetus to Muslims in other parts of the world to carry out even more violence.

You do realize that the whole place has been Islamic for 1400 years.

Do we give back America to the Indians, then?

tatupu70 says

So what? Is that the standard now? If there's a minority that speaks a different language, another country is allowed to annex that property?

No, it's that a region that is forced by an authoritarian government to be forcibly annexed into another, should be allowed to vote itself out of the country it was forced into - specially if it happened within the lifetime of living people.

Gibraltar gets votes, why not Donbass?

tatupu70 says

thunderlips11 says

The difference is that those parts of Germany and Finland doesn't have an innate, Russian speaking minority.

So what? Is that the standard now? If there's a minority that speaks a different language, another country is allowed to annex that property?

Sure, the US invades other countries all the time for dominion, fun and profit. Russia at least has a somewhat legitimate reason for being interested in the Ukraine.

thunderlips11 says

tatupu70 says

So what? Is that the standard now? If there's a minority that speaks a different language, another country is allowed to annex that property?

No, it's that a region that is forced by an authoritarian government to be forcibly annexed into another, should be allowed to vote itself out of the country it was forced into - specially if it happened within the lifetime of living people.

Gibraltar gets votes, why not Donbass?

Agreed. People would argue though that those votes are forced and/or falsified. However, if Europe and the US would be truly interested in what the people of Crimea want, they would support a referendum, but they are fearful of the outcome, like the EU "leaders" (crooks) were when they stopped having referendum in countries constantly voting njet.

thunderlips11 says

No, it's that a region that is forced by an authoritarian government to be forcibly annexed into another, should be allowed to vote itself out of the country it was forced into - specially if it happened within the lifetime of living people.

Gibraltar gets votes, why not Donbass?

I'm not necessarily opposed to that, I just think that Russia should have to pay for it instead of stealing it, like they did with Crimea.

mell says

Sure, the US invades other countries all the time for dominion, fun and profit. Russia at least has a somewhat legitimate reason for being interested in the Ukraine.

How dare Russia not be concerned with what happens right over it's own border!

Whereas it's fine for the US to worry about what happens on the far side of the world...

And there is no political dimension to all of this...

Funny how the map above looks a lot like the first map at the top of this post.

Speaking of justice, have the Ukies settled the Odessa Trade Union deaths, yet? Where did the Police Chief run off too?

Strategist says

It may be an existential war for Israel, but not for the people of Israel. They can always come to America.

Organizational behavior works very different from individual behavior.

Moreover, people in Israel want to protect the essence, nature, and meaning of Israel. This also has a philosophical sense of existence. One that is above and beyond physical being.

thunderlips11 says

Lvov, for example, was built by Poles and Jews who made a majority of the population in 1930s - where are they now, Bandera?

Well, to be historically correct the blame goes to all: Germans, Ukrainians and Russians. First, Germans and Ukies killed the Jews, than Ukies started killing Poles (not in Lviv maybe, but outside of it in Eastern Galicia - Volynia Massacre), while Russians expelled remaining Poles after WWII.

Why are people so ethnic focused? I just fail to comprehend.

Capitalism cleanses the world of prejudice.

Peter P says

Why are people so ethnic focused? I just fail to comprehend.

It's more than ethnicity. A Moscow Cop makes $2000/month. A Ukrainian one $250/month.

Russia keeps key industries functioning at a loss. Ukraine is about to undergo IMF Austerity. If you were a Donbass resident, why not join the growing BRIC country that speaks your own language, rather than stay in a country with the GDP per head of Sri Lanka.

Not to mention, in the East, our glorious fathers in the Soviet Union destroyed the burning, looting, murdering Nazis. In the Western Ukraine, our Nazi friends and Glorious OUN fathers were defeated by the Commie Hordes!

thunderlips11 says

If you were a Donbass resident, why not join the growing BRIC country that speaks your own language, rather than stay in a country with the GDP per head of Sri Lanka.

Nobody is preventing them from moving to Russia.

thunderlips11 says

Strategist says

I still support Israel, not because God gave the land of Israel to them, but any victory on the part of Muslims over Israel will give added impetus to Muslims in other parts of the world to carry out even more violence.

You do realize that the whole place has been Islamic for 1400 years.

Do we give back America to the Indians, then?

I understand and agree with your point. In a sense it's not fair to them, but I don't want to be fair to people who want to kill my children, and other people's children. As far as I am concerned they lost all their rights when they crossed the red line of targeting babies.
Secondly, any victory by the Palestinians will be seen by the Muslim world as a sign from God to carry out atrocities in other parts of the world.
There are clearly more important issues to consider, then granting Palestinians a victory.

Did you guys know that the airframe of Flight 17 first flew on July 17, 1997, exactly 17 years before the crash on July 17, 2014.

July 17 also marked the anniversaries of TWA 800 and TAM 3054.

Perhaps numerology plays a significant role?

According to popular numerology, both #800 and #17 compute to #8.

thunderlips11 says

tatupu70 says

So what? Is that the standard now? If there's a minority that speaks a different language, another country is allowed to annex that property?

No, it's that a region that is forced by an authoritarian government to be forcibly annexed into another, should be allowed to vote itself out of the country it was forced into - specially if it happened within the lifetime of living people.

Gibraltar gets votes, why not Donbass?

Should Texas get to vote?

Peter P says

Did you guys know that the airframe of Flight 17 first flew on July 17, 1997, exactly 17 years before the crash on July 17, 2014.

July 17 also marked the anniversaries of TWA 800 and TAM 3054.

Perhaps numerology plays a significant role?

OMG. More evidence the Israelis did it.
I told you.

thunderlips11 says

We'll find out soon enough.

Do you agree now that it was the pro-Russian rebels?

komputodo says

tatupu70 says

thunderlips11 says

We'll find out soon enough.

Do you agree now that it was the pro-Russian rebels?

You and i will never know what REALLY happened..

Uh, I'm pretty sure we will. In fact, I'm pretty sure we already do.

tatupu70 says

komputodo says

tatupu70 says

thunderlips11 says

We'll find out soon enough.

Do you agree now that it was the pro-Russian rebels?

You and i will never know what REALLY happened..

Uh, I'm pretty sure we will. In fact, I'm pretty sure we already do.

No we don't.

Malaysians have got to have the world airline in the world. And I always though American Airlines was crap. This sure puts things in perspective. At least our planes don't go crashing or missing bimonthly.

komputodo says

Ah, to be so young and naive...

lol--it has nothing to do with young or naïve. It's more like old and experienced. Understanding that conspiracy theories are usually told to the simple minded to sell books. I tend to go with Occam's razor.

FortWayne says

Malaysians have got to have the world airline in the world. And I always though American Airlines was crap. This sure puts things in perspective. At least our planes don't go crashing or missing bimonthly.

I still can't get over the fact that comemrcial airlines are flying over war zones. I think I read that on that day something like 17 airplanes flew the same route??? I mean come on?? How much extra mileage would it be to fly around the war zone?? Must be some corporate accountant/MBA number crunching type who made them fly that route???

lostand confused says

FortWayne says

Malaysians have got to have the world airline in the world. And I always though American Airlines was crap. This sure puts things in perspective. At least our planes don't go crashing or missing bimonthly.

I still can't get over the fact that comemrcial airlines are flying over war zones. I think I read that on that day something like 17 airplanes flew the same route??? I mean come on?? How much extra mileage would it be to fly around the war zone?? Must be some corporate accountant/MBA number crunching type who made them fly that route???

Jet fuel costs money. More miles means higher cost.

Airline passengers are highly price-selective. If your competitors offer the same flight for $10 less, you lose.

Call it Crazy says

lostand confused says

How much extra mileage would it be to fly around the war zone?? Must be some corporate accountant/MBA number crunching type who made them fly that route???

Maybe it saves on having to give more frequent flyer miles to the passengers??

Best to check if your plane is going over a war zone, and not go if you're not sure.
Does LA count as a war zone?

HydroCabron says

Jet fuel costs money. More miles means higher cost.

Airline passengers are highly price-selective. If your competitors offer the same flight for $10 less, you lose.

Well it looks like some airlines took precautions and others choose to fly the dangerous route-probably for fuel savings. Which means their senior mgmt. probably looked at the risk and decided money was more important.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/10975344/Asian-airlines-stopped-flying-over-Ukraine-months-ago.html

tatupu70 says

Uh, I'm pretty sure we will. In fact, I'm pretty sure we already do.

If there was any clear evidence, the US/NATO would be out with it already - even the Ukie ATC should have pretty good evidence without revealing radar/sat capabilities.

Don't expect the US to say "I'm sorry, Russia or DPR, for accusing you without evidence." Even if the State Dept and Admin and Congress *know* it wasn't DPR/Russia, they'll keep beating the drums.

I recall Yellowcake, the assertion 2003 Iraq could use Chemicals within minutes, and of course Syria. Not to mention the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

lostand confused says

Well it looks like some airlines took precautions and others choose to fly the dangerous route-probably for fuel savings. Which means their senior mgmt. probably looked at the risk and decided money was more important.

Especially since their stock took a nosedive because of the other crash, they were probably desperate to save every dime. However, Ukie ATC still has explaining to do.

thunderlips11 says

tatupu70 says

Uh, I'm pretty sure we will. In fact, I'm pretty sure we already do.

If there was any clear evidence, the US/NATO would be out with it already - even the Ukie ATC should have pretty good evidence without revealing radar/sat capabilities.

Don't expect the US to say "I'm sorry, Russia or DPR, for accusing you without evidence." Even if the State Dept and Admin and Congress *know* it wasn't DPR/Russia, they'll keep beating the drums.

I recall Yellowcake, the assertion 2003 Iraq could use Chemicals within minutes, and of course Syria. Not to mention the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

The group that is covering up the evidence is the guilty party - Ukrainian rebels.
The group that is supporting the guilty party is just as guilty - Russia and Putin

Strategist says

.

The group that is covering up the evidence is the guilty party - Ukrainian rebels.

The group that is supporting the guilty party is just as guilty - Russia and Putin

Really? Where is the Ukie ATC records? Seized by SBU and not seen since.

The only evidence provided so far by the MediaMIC complex is a grainy Youtube video of a BUK system being transported by flatbed over country roads, no insignia or markers as to who it belongs to.

Apparently, social media assertions and an unprovenced youtube video are evidence.

Compare that to the Russian Press Conference, complete with pictures of the mysterious removal of Ukrainian BUKS the day after the shootdown. Plus radar showing a Ukie Su25 flying towards MH17.

The question is, where is the US NATO Radar and Satellite, and the Ukrainian ATC records?

Its Yellowcake Part Two. As Jen Psaki said, there are no refugees, tens of thousands of people are just suddenly deciding to visit relatives in Russia. Also, 70 others died to today in Gaza. Damn Others, where do they come from? How did all these Arabs immigrate to Israel in the past decade or so?

Enjoy the media these days, its a one sided desperate attempt to tell more blackwhite goodevil Empire Stories. When I get sad, I think George Carlin and having a front row seat to the circus.

thunderlips11 says

Compare that to the Russian Press Conference, complete with pictures of the mysterious removal of Ukrainian BUKS the day after the shootdown. Plus radar showing a Ukie Su25 flying towards MH17.

They are creating a circus because they are being held responsible. Obama is clearly blaming the rebels, and it's common knowledge the rebels are being supported by Putin.

thunderlips11 says

Also, 70 others died to today in Gaza. Damn Others, where do they come from? How did all these Arabs immigrate to Israel in the past decade or so?

They have been there for generations and will naturally have certain rights. Land ownership the world over has continuously changed over time. If I was an Israeli or a Palestinian I would just leave the crazy place. My family is more important then land. But for Hamas to do what it does is not acceptable. I blame Hamas.

Strategist says

They are creating a circus because they are being held responsible. Obama is clearly blaming the rebels, and it's common knowledge the rebels are being supported by Putin.

Accusations are not evidence. The Russians are not accepting responsibility because there is nothing to show they are responsible.

As for the rebels, they are supported by Putin the same way the recent Putsch was supported by the US.

When Svoboda and Right Sektor thugs shot at police and demonstrators (several police were killed by Ukie ultranationalist brownshirts), the US sternly warned Viktor Yushchenko not to use violence. Now, the Ukraine is using plenty of violence against civilians, and not a peep from the State Department. Nice Double Standard!
Strategist says

They have been there for generations and will naturally have certain rights. Land ownership the world over has continuously changed over time.

Too bad the Palestinians didn't have a Lou Dobbs on their side back in the day.

Ah, here is the Russian Press Briefing. Don't expect to see it in the US/UK MSM.

http://www.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/0/ECD62987D4816CA344257D1D00251C76

After all, the Russians must be lying because the MSM says Russia always lies.

thunderlips11 says

Strategist says

They have been there for generations and will naturally have certain rights. Land ownership the world over has continuously changed over time.

Point taken. We stole everything from the native Americans. But now what? Americans today have nothing to do with what happened in the past. Most Americans came well after the genocide. Today's Americans cannot be held responsible.
As for Israel, I really don't care who gets Israel. Today's Israel consists of both Jews and Muslims. It's just religions. Who cares what people call themselves.
Intentionally targeting children is what I will never ever accept.