patrick.net

Dan8267 says

We need to disarm cops

Shouldn't we be disarming criminals first?

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

We need to disarm cops

Shouldn't we be disarming criminals first?

That's exactly what dan is suggesting

errc says

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

We need to disarm cops

Shouldn't we be disarming criminals first?

That's exactly what dan is suggesting

LOL. I don't know how to react to your statement. Guess you deserve a "like" even though I completely disagree.

Call it Crazy says

Dan8267 says

Crime is at it's lowest rate,

See, as we've always said, an armed society is a polite society...

The reduction in crime happened before the militarization of the police. So there is no causality.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

We need to disarm cops

Shouldn't we be disarming criminals first?

That's what I said. Disarm the cops.

Dan8267 says

That's what I said. Disarm the cops.

While some disarmament is warranted (tanks to podunk town sheriffs, really?), more important are stronger protection for civilians. We also need accountability for cops when they use these weapons. Cops are not soldiers; they're law enforcement. They're meant to be part of society, not outside it.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

We need to disarm cops

Shouldn't we be disarming criminals first?

That's what I said. Disarm the cops.

And watch crime shoot up.

Call it Crazy says

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

We need to disarm cops

Shouldn't we be disarming criminals first?

That's what I said. Disarm the cops.

And watch crime shoot up.

Doesn't matter if you disarm the cops, the majority of the time they show up AFTER the crime has already taken place, just to write up the report...

Hello? They need to finish their donuts first.

We need transparent and universal surveillance. Real-time footage of every corner of public space must be available to anyone. This should improve accountability.

To solve the crime problem, we need robotic law enforcement agents. May be even micro drones or land drones.

A global cap-and-trade birth permit exchange will also indirectly reduce crime rate. It is becoming increasingly clear that the people should NOT have the right to unrestricted procreation.

Peter P says

We need transparent and universal surveillance. Real-time footage of every corner of public space must be available to anyone. This should improve accountability.

Be careful....Dan will have a fit.

We need to de-criminalize this society, too.

Problem is, too many people, not enough work.

What money communities do receive via honest work is quickly drained out of it by all the rent-seeking going on.

Bellingham Bill says

We need to de-criminalize this society, too.

Problem is, too many people, not enough work.

What money communities do receive via honest work is quickly drained out of it by all the rent-seeking going on.

What would you like to see de-crimanilized, outside of marijuana?

Dan8267 says

The reduction in crime happened before the militarization of the police. So there is no causality.

Too add to that, Reduction in crime also happened in similar Western countries with similar demographics that never militarized the police nor greatly expanded the prison population.

We have the highest rate of incarceration in the world, almost 3x our nearest competitors, Israel (with Palestinians) and Chile (long history of inquisition and political imprisonment), and about 7x the OECD average.

And our crime rate is right about average for OECD countries too. It's expensive, it endangers liberties, AND it doesn't even work.

errc says

What would you like to see de-crimanilized, outside of marijuana?

Drugs in general, yes. But also all the dynamics that create a criminal caste here. There's a lot of feedback loops going on, fixing things isn't going to be easy (we tend to address symptoms and not causes anyway), and in our current political environment impossible.

Maybe our forebears had the right idea . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_transportation

In 1787, the "First Fleet" departed from England, to establish the first British settlement in Australia, as a penal colony. They arrived at Port Jackson (Sydney) on 26 January 1788, a date now celebrated as Australia Day.

Maybe the US has become a penal colony and we just don't know it yet . . .

errc says

What would you like to see de-crimanilized, outside of marijuana?

Prostitution. Gambling. All drugs. Fewer laws lead to fewer crimes.

Any "crime" with no victims or only voluntary "victims" should be legalized.

Peter P says

errc says

What would you like to see de-crimanilized, outside of marijuana?

Prostitution. Gambling. All drugs. Fewer laws lead to fewer crimes.

Any "crime" with no victims or only voluntary "victims" should be legalized.

Agreed.

Peter P says

errc says

What would you like to see de-crimanilized, outside of marijuana?

Prostitution. Gambling. All drugs. Fewer laws lead to fewer crimes.

Any "crime" with no victims or only voluntary "victims" should be legalized.

Your lips to God's ears.

The Prostitutes lips to my ears.

Strategist says

And watch crime shoot up.

And your evidence for that?

Strategist says

Peter P says

We need transparent and universal surveillance. Real-time footage of every corner of public space must be available to anyone. This should improve accountability.

Be careful....Dan will have a fit.

Actually, that system would be far better than what we have. The problem with the NSA is that only they have access to the data. If we all knew what everyone else was doing, the power would be evenly distributed.

So, if the government wants to spy on my phone conversations, I and everyone else should be able to spy on its. I suspect that the members of Congress will be caught doing far more crimes than the typical citizen.

thunderlips11 says

Too add to that, Reduction in crime also happened in similar Western countries with similar demographics that never militarized the police nor greatly expanded the prison population.

Exactly. Look at the evidence instead of what your gut tells you. Conservatives simply don't understand the concept of verifying intuition against objective observable reality.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

And watch crime shoot up.

And your evidence for that?

It's common sense.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Peter P says

We need transparent and universal surveillance. Real-time footage of every corner of public space must be available to anyone. This should improve accountability.

Be careful....Dan will have a fit.

Actually, that system would be far better than what we have. The problem with the NSA is that only they have access to the data. If we all knew what everyone else was doing, the power would be evenly distributed.

So, if the government wants to spy on my phone conversations, I and everyone else should be able to spy on its. I suspect that the members of Congress will be caught doing far more crimes than the typical citizen.

What? I don't want my competition knowing who my customers are.
I don't want my wife knowing what I got for my girl friend on her birthday.
I also don't care what politicians is screwing around with whom.
Zero privacy? Not a chance in hell.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

And watch crime shoot up.

And your evidence for that?

It's common sense.

What one person thinks is common sense is what another thinks is idiot.

In any case, empirical evidence and observation beat "common sense" any day. It's common sense that the Earth is flat, and that's wrong.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

And watch crime shoot up.

And your evidence for that?

It's common sense.

What one person thinks is common sense is what another thinks is idiot.

In any case, empirical evidence and observation beat "common sense" any day. It's common sense that the Earth is flat, and that's wrong.

Look...if the cops gave up all their guns, and the criminals still have theirs, do you think that would encourage more crime or discourage more crime.
Put yourself in the shoes of the criminals.

Strategist says

Look...if the cops gave up all their guns, and the criminals still have theirs, do you think that would encourage more crime or discourage more crime.

Quit with the straw man argument. This thread is about removing the military weapons from police forces. Tanks, grenades, assault rifles, etc.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

And watch crime shoot up.

And your evidence for that?

It's common sense.

Common sense (conventional wisdom) is littered with bad information

errc says

Common sense (conventional wisdom) is littered with bad information

People like Strategist use "common sense", which is code for their gut feeling, as a reason to refuse to even look at evidence which may counter their beliefs.

More people in prison than the entire Military, or the combined populations of 15 entire states.

That graph is from a recent report by Prison Policy Initiative, an invaluable resource on mass incarceration. (PPI also has a disturbing graph comparing state incarceration rates with those of other countries around the world, which I highly recommend looking at here.) "Although our level of crime is comparable to those of other stable, internally secure, industrialized nations," the report says, "the United States has an incarceration rate far higher than any other country."

Some individual states like Louisiana contribute disproportionately, but no state is free from mass incarceration. Disturbingly, many states' prison populations outrank even those of dictatorships and illiberal democracies around the world. New York jails more people per capita than Rwanda, where tens of thousands await trial for their roles in the 1994 genocide. California, Illinois, and Ohio each have a higher incarceration rate than Cuba and Russia. Even Maine and Vermont imprison a greater share of people than Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, or Egypt.

But mass incarceration is more than just an international anomaly; it's also a relatively recent phenomenon in American criminal justice. Starting in the 1970s with the rise of tough-on-crime politicians and the War on Drugs, America's prison population jumped eightfold between 1970 and 2010. (The graph below does not include local or territorial prisons.)

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/07/the-leader-of-the-unfree-world/374348/

thunderlips11 says

More people in prison than the entire Military, or the combined populations of 15 entire states.

We could shoot them all and become civilized like Norway.

Dan8267 says

errc says

Common sense (conventional wisdom) is littered with bad information

People like Strategist use "common sense", which is code for their gut feeling, as a reason to refuse to even look at evidence which may counter their beliefs.

Common sense
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For the American revolutionary war pamphlet by Thomas Paine, see Common Sense (pamphlet). For other uses, see Common sense (disambiguation).
Common sense is a basic ability to perceive, understand, and judge things, which is shared by ("common to") nearly all people, and can be reasonably expected of nearly all people without any need for debate.[1] The everyday understanding of what common sense is derives from philosophical discussion, involving several European languages. Related words in other languages include Latin sensus communis, Greek κοινὴ αἲσθησις (koinē aísthēsis), and French bon sens, but these are not straightforward translations in all contexts. Similarly in English, there are different shades of meaning, implying more or less education and wisdom: "good sense" is sometimes seen as equivalent to "common sense", and sometimes not.[2]

If you're on the left, you shouldn't be arguing for disarming police. You should be arguing for banning weapons. Ideally the cops could get the job done with whistles and billy clubs because the crooks don't have anything better.

If you're on the right, you shouldn't be arguing for disarming police. Police weapons don't hurt people, corrupt police do. Put the corrupt cops in jail and let the honest ones keep their equipment. Impose rules. Demanding police disarm because some police break the rules is no different than banning weapons because some people use them for crime.

Thunder lips, I'd love to see those numbers along with % of prison population that is illegal aliens. Ive repeatedly read the stay that California's prison population is 33% illegal aliens and I'd bet that is low. Would love to know that number in all the southwest states.

Look, I'm all in favor of decriminalizing all the victimless crimes...I see no point in legislating morality. And I'm also against police getting crazy military grade weaponry. But there's still going to be a lot of criminals based simply on what our society is and how it's constructed. And all the government sponsored programs and all the gun control in the world isn't going to eliminate that.

I think part of the problem is that some of you still view prison as punishment for committing a crime. IMO it's actually to keep predators out of the general citizenry for a length of time. And THAT does in fact prevent crime.

FWIW the only place where cameras should be placed is in every nook and cranny is in prisons and jail.....to watch both the prisoners and the guards, all monitored at a remote location staffed with civilians only and an entire different state entity, not associated with the prison system. And IMO if you commit a felony level crime while in prison, there is another prison you get sent to where you stay in solitary confinement for your entire sentence...a little small elevator size cage...that goes for inmates and guards.

And oh yeah, spit, piss, shit on, or assault a guard, they get to kill you.

Dan8267 says

Call it Crazy says

Dan8267 says

Crime is at it's lowest rate,

See, as we've always said, an armed society is a polite society...

The reduction in crime happened before the militarization of the police. So there is no causality.

Side effect of living in a free society, coupled with lax immigration enforcement.

thunderlips11 says

More people in prison than the entire Military, or the combined populations of 15 entire states.

We need to criminalize unemployment.
This will create more inmates, thus creating more jobs as prison guards.

Bellingham Bill says

Problem is, too many people, not enough work.

SoftShell says

Cheerleading is bullshit. I prefer to improve America rather than brag about it as it fails. Of course, you wouldn't understand that. It's a liberal thing.

SoftShell says

Side effect of living in a free society, coupled with lax immigration enforcement.

thunderlips11 says

More people in prison than the entire Military, or the combined populations of 15 entire states.

Canada isn't Free?

Oh yeah, you can't have Glocks with 22 round magazines up there. Only an Unfree Commie Socialist would ban handgun mags with more than 10 rounds capacity.

Dan8267 says

SoftShell says

Cheerleading is bullshit. I prefer to improve America rather than brag about it as it fails. Of course, you wouldn't understand that. It's a liberal thing.

Dan, you don't want to improve America.You want to destroy it and turn it into your version of a utopia.

Strategist says

Dan, you don't want to improve America.You want to destroy it and turn it into your version of a utopia.

Yeah, my vision of utopia where cops who throw grenades into baby cribs have to stand trial. That would totally destroy America.