patrick.net

mell says

Instead, forget about left and right and look at the data within the same profession(s). There is NO pay gap.

That's the thing. The Rightwing will say there is no pay gap. Then they say, "if there is a pay gap, it's because women have children". Then they say, "if there is a pay gap, even among women without children, it's because they choose lower paid professions".

They use the "all of the above" argument with Climate change too. It's intellectually dishonest.

http://blogs.marketwatch.com/capitolreport/2014/04/07/women-earn-less-than-men-even-in-woman-dominated-jobs/

Dan8267 says

Really, I'm making shit up? Well, not according to Google's autocomplete.

So what? You want to label everybody using the word thug as a racist now? People coining these "trends" and ingraining them into peoples' heads are not better than your closest racist.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/DbO5h8Ctfs8

I like the new title

lostand confused says

That is in an utopian world. in the real world, there are other skills-kissing ass, willing to bob your head in endless meeting, pretending your boss' new idea is the next best thing to quantum physics etc etc. That person ought to receive more money-for willing to crush his soul that much.

I've seen that a lot..Much of the time it has nothing to do with competence. Unwavering blind loyalty to your superior is also a factor.
Also the willingness to take a dressing down by the boss just because he's in a bad mood.

mell says

So what? You want to label everybody using the word thug as a racist now?

A implies B does not imply B implies A.

Why is basic logic so difficult for the masses?

CL says

http://blogs.marketwatch.com/capitolreport/2014/04/07/women-earn-less-than-men-even-in-woman-dominated-jobs/

I don't want to post the countless studies and articles "debunking" this data from the Institute of women's policy research. Everybody has a bias towards looking up studies corroborating their claim. I have worked in tech management and (over)seen salaries, and there simply was no pay gap. Obviously I cannot speak for every sector, but I have insight into a few other sectors (medical, restaurant/service, education) and I have never observed a pay gap there either, nor did the women I know in these fields report one. The last point is simple logic. There is zero reason for a (male or not) manager to incorporate a pay gap (no personal gain, no gain for the company). Occam's razor would dictate then that it is highly unlikely.

Dan8267 says

A implies B does not imply B implies A.

I'm quite comfortable at math, so are you trying to say that

Every racist (A) now switched to using the word thug (B), but not everyone using the word thug (B) is a racist (A)?

I'd still question the truth of the first half of that statement.

Aside from that, character assassination, justified (provable) or not is very hard to take back these days and can ruin somebody's career/life forever. Hence I'd like to see proper and ample evidence in each case, similar to a trial and when there is no sufficient evidence you have to give the benefit of the doubt. Interestingly pointing fingers with heavy allegations is very close to denouncing people and IMO much much closer to Nazi practice than being a (closet or not) racist that abides by the law but voices their opinion (anonymously or not).

mell says

I have worked in tech management and (over)seen salaries, and there simply was no pay gap

A quick google search shows headlines that say "Wage gap in technology exceedingly small", especially in San Franciscco.

mell says

I have never observed a pay gap there either, nor did the women I know in these fields report one.

Were the salaries public knowledge?

mell says

Occam's razor would dictate then that it is highly unlikely.

Not necessarily. If you get a salary range approved, you can award the high end based on your notion, or the low-end based on the same. Women can get the low-end, and will likely accept it if they encounter discrimination at every prospective employer.

I've seen deliberations in my past, and seen firsthand concerns for people (men) who have children, families, etc. They "need" it more, the logic goes. Haven't you?

mell says

Every racist (A) now switched to using the word thug (B), but not everyone using the word thug (B) is a racist (A)?

I'd still question the truth of the first half of that statement.

Racists are using the word thug, but not everyone using the word thug is a racist.

Note that not all racists have to be using the word thug, but plenty are.

CL says

've seen deliberations in my past, and seen firsthand concerns for people (men) who have children, families, etc. They "need" it more, the logic goes. Haven't you?

Such employers will not last very long. A market participant should not respond to the need of others. Just his own profit motive. The is an obvious inefficiency.

CL says

But, if the rightwing argument is that women simply choose low paying professions, then with the disparity even in "their house"? Hmmm?

I've seen women who make a lot of money, so I don't really see an issue there. People get paid what they bargain for.

But left doesn't care, they just want to trumped a fake made up issue just for Hillary's 2016 campaign. And that mantra of "women are oppressed" is just laughable in this day and age.

But I know that won't stop the BS train from the Democratic campaign machine. Should be entertaining to watch Hillary try to do that sell to the nation.

FortWayne says

Should be entertaining to watch Hillary try to do that sell to the nation.

She doesn't have to. But the GOP will have a much harder time because they will need to show they can present a candidate who isn't a utter joke.

CL says

A quick google search shows headlines that say "Wage gap in technology exceedingly small", especially in San Franciscco.

exceedingly small = Zero. Maybe it's a local bay area phenomenon, I cannot speak for every area and sector in the US, but Occam's razor would dictate to be skeptical of claims of pay gaps.

CL says

Were the salaries public knowledge?

Some have administrative/managerial function and had info about other salaries in their hospital etc. But probably not public by default.

CL says

I've seen deliberations in my past, and seen firsthand concerns for people (men) who have children, families, etc. They "need" it more, the logic goes. Haven't you?

I haven't.

CL says

Women can get the low-end, and will likely accept it if they encounter discrimination at every prospective employer.

Like Peter P said businesses who discriminate against better suited workers don't stay in business for very long, it's against their own interest. Now, all the affirmative action and harassment and pregnancy laws do make women a potential liability for their employers, so they may be citing other reasons for not employing her but really don't want to take on that liability. Those laws are not only unfair to the other genders/races, they can end up hurting those they were "intended to help". Next stop then is the law mandating to employ a certain percentage of a gender or race, which are even unfairer, but also doom the competitiveness of the company and the country.

mell says

Now, all the affirmative action and harassment and pregnancy laws do make women a potential liability for their employers, so they may be citing other reasons for not employing her but really don't want to take on that liability.

In a perfect world all leaves (sick, vacation, maternity, paternity) would be unpaid.

Prospective parents need to fully comprehend the costs before they skip the condom.

Peter P says

In a perfect world all leaves (sick, vacation, maternity, paternity) would be
unpaid.

In a perfect world for walmart cult?

The problem of sexual harassment is overblown. Very often, the employer is the vulnerable party simply because of their deeper pocket. There are already criminal laws against sexual assault, and I think that should be sufficient.

Fearing for one's job is not an excuse for not saying no. It is just a job.

Peter P says

In a perfect world all leaves (sick, vacation, maternity, paternity) would be unpaid.

Prospective parents need to fully comprehend the costs before they skip the condom.

What is your definition of "perfect"?

dublin hillz says

Peter P says

In a perfect world all leaves (sick, vacation, maternity, paternity) would be

unpaid.

In a perfect world for walmart cult?

It is only fair. People should be taking a lot more vacation than the 2-4 weeks per year they are "earning."

FortWayne says

Peter P says

In a perfect world all leaves (sick, vacation, maternity, paternity) would be unpaid.

Prospective parents need to fully comprehend the costs before they skip the condom.

What is your definition of "perfect"?

Maximum economic efficiency.

Peter P says

dublin hillz says

Peter P says

In a perfect world all leaves (sick, vacation, maternity, paternity) would be

unpaid.

In a perfect world for walmart cult?

It is only fair. People should be taking a lot more vacation than the 2-4 weeks per year they are "earning."

Seems to me like a lot of small biz owners in united states are afraid to take vacation precisely since they cannot make any money when they close up shop.

mell says

I cannot speak for every area and sector in the US, but Occam's razor would dictate to be skeptical of claims of pay gaps.

See? I don't think it does. If I create a new position, and get approval for 50-65K to start what factors do I use to assign value to that employee? Resume, sure. Experience, sure. But Occam's razor would say that the shortest path is likely the most accurate, right?

So, isn't it a bit more esoteric than that? The candidate "feels" right? "Seems like a great fit"? "Has the right attitude?".

Consciously or not, humans grant deference to certain people, except through mental effort. It's the same reason that white male Christians disproportionately hold the levers of power, in the Congress and all elected offices, as well as Executive positions on corporations.

If there is a disturbance, and there are 2 middle age white men and 2 black youths, who will get investigated first? Is justice blind? If not, what is different about a hiring scenario?

Whether it be by 5k or 15K, the women will, over time, get the short end of the stick. I've seen married males get bumps in salary, and single males get none or less. Unless the salaries are publicly available, there is little way to know until a grievance is filed, ala Ledbetter. Or via surveys, but a skeptic will write those off.

Slavery isn't very efficient.

Peter P says

FortWayne says

Peter P says

In a perfect world all leaves (sick, vacation, maternity, paternity) would be unpaid.

Prospective parents need to fully comprehend the costs before they skip the condom.

What is your definition of "perfect"?

Maximum economic efficiency.

edvard2 says

super right wing' = irrational, xenophobic, and out of touch with modern society.

Was it irrational to be displeased by a law that was passed with out reading it?
Was it irrational to be concerned that wide open boarders would lead to Mexican gangs and cartels gaining a greater foothold on America and would flood depressed workers to further strain our Employment numbers?

We're not out of touch with Modern society, we're just not Allowing the confused and morally bankrupt left define "Modern Society"!

You say trashy posts like it's a bad thing!

This is Damning Evidence.
All Damning Evidence....
CaptainShuddup says

Was it irrational to be displeased by a law that was passed with out reading it?

Was it irrational to be concerned that wide open boarders would lead to Mexican gangs and cartels gaining a greater foothold on America and would flood depressed workers to further strain our Employment numbers?

CaptainShuddup says

Was it irrational to be concerned that wide open boarders would lead to Mexican gangs and cartels gaining a greater foothold on America and would flood depressed workers to further strain our Employment numbers?

Bleeding heart liberals are a confused bunch. They think it's ok to bring millions of poor to lower wages across the border, yet they complain about outsourcing. But say something about closing borders, and they call you racist.

It's as if they only use half the brain and only figured half the equation of wage slavery. It doesn't dawn on them that desperate poor they want to bring will always accept a shittier station in life just to have a job, which will reduce wages and benefits for all Americans.

Just wait till edward or his liberal friends have to compete with a million of Juan's and Jose's from across the border for a job, he'll change his tune on illegal immigration pretty darn fast.

FortWayne says

Bleeding heart liberals are a confused bunch. They think it's ok to bring millions of poor to lower wages across the border, yet they complain about outsourcing. But say something about closing borders, and they call you racist.

And the straw man award of the year award goes to...

If I was going to write a comeback he could understand, it would be about gullible morons and not about right wingers.

"Darrrrr, guhuh... I know what let's do. Let's blame it on the liberals."

The propaganda works so well on a certain gullible and ignorant segment of the population.

FortWayne says

he'll change his tune on illegal immigration pretty darn fast.

Obama has been tougher on border security than any other President. He basically doubled it.

As for allowing illegals to stay ? Even most right wingers understand you aren't going to deport all those people.

How come Fortwayne got through saying what he had to say with out sounding like a sbh and Rush love affair?

FortWayne says

It doesn't dawn on them that desperate poor they want to bring will always accept a shittier station in life just to have a job, which will reduce wages and benefits for all Americans.

But those immigrants are also consumers, and the stuff they consume is being sold by Americans in America. Where does money we send abroad go?

We have a problem in supply v. demand. and it's not on the supply side. Importing consumers is not the same as exporting jobs.

sbh says

He'd be OK with importing them if they were actually "natural conservatives"

Many of them are Catholic. That is conservative in a way, for example with respect to "family values." I think you mean natural right wingers, which is impossible for a minority immigrant group.

sbh says

They are conservative in other ways as well.

Some of that is hype, drummed up by the right. The majority of Catholics support birth control, despite the hierarchy. Latinos are no exception, and support gay marriage as well.

They make the (false) assumption that, Catholicism is conservative, Mexico is a "Catholic" country, therefore Mexican immigrants are naturally conservative. I needn't remind you that a combination of Catholicism and Latin America is also the foundation for liberation theology, which has been deemed "Marxist" by many conservatives.

It's filled with untruths and logical fallacies.

So, ultimately, it is simply a thinly veiled attempt to define Latinos for themselves, to give them a framework to eventually vote Republican. It's a racist one at that, because if demographics don't reveal what conservatives WANT them to reveal, then it's back to the brown heap they go. They are no longer useful to the right.

CL says

They make the (false) assumption that, Catholicism is conservative, Mexico is a "Catholic" country, therefore Mexican immigrants are naturally conservative.

When I say conservative (above) I don't mean right wing.

I meant conservative more like Eisenhower conservative. Pro family values, strong work ethic and so on. I wasn't suggesting they will ever vote republican. Tha't for scared white folks and the whole "fuck you I've got mine" crowd.

sbh says

They are conservative in other ways as well. But the wetback beaners just don't seem to vote right, do they, and in the end that's what matters to the real americans who are naturally terrified of dark people.

In america, I was taught that all dark people are shiftless and criminals and rape white women.

Peter P says

People should be taking a lot more vacation than the 2-4 weeks per year they are "earning."

If you want that then don't take a job that doesn't offer it. When you accept a job you accept the job. It's not like - "Okay, you're hired, BUT, we're not going to tell you how much we're going to pay, you'll find out on pay day. You don't know how much vacation you get, but ask for some time off for a vacation and we'll tell you if you've got enough time." Look, you don't like the job for WHATEVER reason, then don't accept it. I've quit jobs for better pay elsewhere or better benefits elsewhere or because I thought I wasn't being treated well.

sbh says

They are conservative in other ways as well. But the wetback beaners just don't seem to vote right, do they, and in the end that's what matters to the real americans who are naturally terrified of dark people.

The "wetback beaners" would vote for whomever if they felt they had a good shot at a green card.
OTOH, latinos born in the USA have no interest in legalizing illegal mexicans. It's just human nature.

StupidBiggotHonkey says

They are conservative in other ways as well. But the wetback beaners just don't seem to vote right, do they, and in the end that's what matters to the real americans who are naturally terrified of dark people.

It's blatant racism...but what else would you expect from the rabid left?

CaptainShuddup says

StupidBiggotHonkey says

They are conservative in other ways as well. But the wetback beaners just don't seem to vote right, do they, and in the end that's what matters to the real americans who are naturally terrified of dark people.

mmmarvel says

Peter P says

People should be taking a lot more vacation than the 2-4 weeks per year they are "earning."

If you want that then don't take a job that doesn't offer it. When you accept a job you accept the job. It's not like - "Okay, you're hired, BUT, we're not going to tell you how much we're going to pay, you'll find out on pay day. You don't know how much vacation you get, but ask for some time off for a vacation and we'll tell you if you've got enough time." Look, you don't like the job for WHATEVER reason, then don't accept it. I've quit jobs for better pay elsewhere or better benefits elsewhere or because I thought I wasn't being treated well.

True, but putting a price on everything promotes communication. It will be good very everyone.

The very idea of a "job" is corrupting on the human spirit. It really should be pure commerce.

CL says

. The majority of Catholics support birth control, despite the hierarchy. Latinos are no exception, and support gay marriage as well.

HUGE differences between Latinos. It's like saying Hungarian Rednecks and Paris Night Club Owners share similar views about Homosexuality.

Cubans (inc. Cuban-Americans) are generally down with Abortion. "Private Abortion Providers" feature in after page of these 1/8th ads in the local ad rags, about as many as the Divorce Lawyers.

Mexico City only legalized abortion for the 1st Trimester a few years ago, it remains totally illegal throughout most of Mexico. Gay Rights is also hotly debated and marriage illegal in most of Mexico (where Marriage is entirely Civil after a violent struggle against Superstition).

marcus says

CL says

They make the (false) assumption that, Catholicism is conservative, Mexico is a "Catholic" country, therefore Mexican immigrants are naturally conservative.

When I say conservative (above) I don't mean right wing.

I meant conservative more like Eisenhower conservative. Pro family values, strong work ethic and so on. I wasn't suggesting they will ever vote republican. Tha't for scared white folks and the whole "fuck you I've got mine" crowd.

But you're not racist, right? RIGHT?

I'll tell ya something, and even though you have me on ignore I suspect you'll wind up reading it.

1.) you are incapable of judging people on their character and actions. More than any other poster on pat.net you love to place people into boxes, label it, and toss you're own bias and prejudices in there. You define racist.

2.) you had better hope you don't lose it like Ribas did and let out too much personal information. Secretly holding looney beliefs seems to have a way of biting teachers in the ass.