patrick.net

But it is the private citizens that have hired the police to treat them as slaves under the laws the private citizens constructed themselves.
When you set up a situation where you are to be policed, and then go out and hire the people to do the policing, at minimum it would be expected that you would tolerate the situation you set up.

Dan8267 says

We should not tolerate the police treating the private citizens as slaves.

what threat did he avoid? What safety did he risk? A titty slapping from the commanding officer? OMG, sure glad he got out of there without boning up!

Dan8267 says

So yes, this guy is a hero who risked his safety to stand up for liberty.

SoftShell says

what threat did he avoid? What safety did he risk? A titty slapping from the commanding officer? OMG, sure glad he got out of there without boning up!

Dan8267 says

So yes, this guy is a hero who risked his safety to stand up for liberty.

Dan does not know the true meaning of liberty.

Only because obama forgot to collect our two trillion barrel severance upon leaving iraq...
thunderlips11 says

We can't afford Team America:

Bigsby says

The past is the past. The issue is what is to be done now with the very real threat of ISIS.

Stab the heart of the beast. Stop playing whackamole. Stop cutting off the hydra's heads.

But I'm sure you know as well as I do that it will never happen. Who will pay for the Presidential Library, the University Chairs, Political Campaign Contributions, etc?

Until the USG gets goes about stopping terror at the source, the Gulf States, I know it isn't serious.

That's the problem with empires, they have conflicting interests. They need the Wahabis to help win against Gaddafyi in Libya, to be funded via Saudi Arabia, to overthrow Syria, but not to overtake Iraq, or get TOO powerful in Libya (or Syria if they win) so they overthrow the Neoliberal Oligarchs.

Bigsby says

They don't have to literally control all of it, do they? Some oil fields and major cities can supply a substantial amount of funds.

The Kurds have had a tough time of extracting it, AND a tough time of exporting it. Those fields are damaged and ancient; the infrastructure is also in lousy shape.

The oil rich areas of Iraq (and much of the densely populated areas) are also where all of ISIS' strongest and most hated enemies are, the Shi'a and Kurdish regions. The Shi'a alone are ~65% of the population. Toss in the Kurds and other minorities, it's 75%.

Wahabis hate Shi'a more than they hate "Crusaders" or "Zionists". The hate is at 1600s Germany levels.

Hezbollah has already been fighting with ISIS along the Lebanese-Syrian border. Hezbollah "advisors" are in Northern Iraq.
http://www.juancole.com/2014/06/radicals-showdown-hizbullah.html
http://www.vox.com/2014/8/4/5968181/lebanon-isis-town-arsal
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/01/hezbollah-s-widening-war-spreads-to-iraq.html

Bigsby says

Yes, because the two situations are obviously the same...

We sanction countries over a lot less than executing Sorcerers and Adulterers. Saudi Arabia is the wellspring. Unless you dam it up, it's whackamole over the entire Muslim World - even Nigeria and Kenya.

Bigsby says

You have a lot of experience living in Europe, do you? If someone was stopped for speeding in Europe and produced a driving licence, then they wouldn't be asked for their 'passport and visa.'

That depends. If they were obvious foreigners - like the 9/11 hijackers - they would probably be. If they were Euro or American tourists, probably not. Cops can't check for immigration, and we don't have random ICE/DHS checks (and shouldn't). Let cops check immigration status.

As for the EU states, they have been turning against immigration generally, and now there's even blowback against Tomas/Stoyan the friendly Polish/Bulgarian Plumber and EU "internal migration"

This is something a couple hundred titty bars situated on the gulf of aden would solve rather quickly....
thunderlips11 says

Until the USG gets goes about stopping terror at the source, the Gulf States, I know it isn't serious.

thunderlips11 says

Until the USG gets goes about stopping terror at the source, the Gulf States, I know it isn't serious.

As ISIS has basically become self-funded, then that becomes far less important (and it's obviously not just the Gulf states doing the funding).

thunderlips11 says

The Kurds have had a tough time of extracting it, AND a tough time of exporting it. Those fields are damaged and ancient; the infrastructure is also in lousy shape.

The oil rich areas of Iraq (and much of the densely populated areas) are also where all of ISIS' strongest and most hated enemies are, the Shi'a and Kurdish regions. The Shi'a alone are ~65% of the population. Toss in the Kurds and other minorities, it's 75%.

Wahabis hate Shi'a more than they hate "Crusaders" or "Zionists". The hate is at 1600s Germany levels.

And your point? A group hell bent on regional dominance at any price is going to extract money any way they can. The more land they control, the more money they will gather. They don't have to control every city or every oil field to cause havoc both in the region and elsewhere.

thunderlips11 says

That depends. If they were obvious foreigners - like the 9/11 hijackers - they would probably be.

Obvious foreigners? When was the last time you were in England, France or Germany? What exactly is a citizen of one of those countries supposed to look like? Close to 3m muslims live in England. Add up every black, Asian, Arab or mixed citizen in England and that's 8m people.

Bigsby says

As ISIS has basically become self-funded, then that becomes far less important (and it's obviously not just the Gulf states doing the funding).

And next time, in the next place? India-Pakistan border? Chechnya Part 2? Egypt? Morocco? Nigeria?

Bigsby says

And your point? A group hell bent on regional dominance at any price is going to extract money any way they can. The more land they control, the more money they will gather. They don't have to control every city or every oil field to cause havoc both in the region and else where.

Good luck controlling the a place where 3/4 of the population is opposed to everything you stand for.

The pipelines and highways either go up through Turkey or down the Rivers to Basra.

North is Kurdish land, nice and hilly too, and the South is loaded with Shi'a.

If you think the US convoys got attacked a little bit, just wait until you see ISIS try to move some gas out of Iraq.

Bigsby says

Obvious foreigners? When was the last time you were in England, France or Germany? What exactly is a citizen of one of those countries supposed to look like? Close to 3m muslims live in England. Do you think they are all white?

Actually, a French Court only overturned the indefinite police custody of illegals ("Sans-papiers") about a year or so ago. 2012 was a record year for deportations in France, too.
http://www.thelocal.fr/20130122/france-expels-record-number-of-illegal-immigrants

20,000 Roma in 2013 alone.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/1/14/france-deports-recordnumberofroma.html

http://www.voanews.com/content/reu-libya-deports-hundreds-of-african-immigrants-state-news-agency/1798655.html
Italy is turning away illegals and deporting them whenever they are found.

Double digit percentages of Hispanics in the US doesn't stop the BP/DHS patrols, or their raids to help packers/plantation owners get rid of them after the busy/harvest season is over.

thunderlips11 says

Bigsby says

As ISIS has basically become self-funded, then that becomes far less important (and it's obviously not just the Gulf states doing the funding).

And next time, in the next place? India-Pakistan border? Chechnya Part 2? Egypt? Morocco? Nigeria?

Your point?

thunderlips11 says

Good luck controlling the a place where 3/4 of the population is opposed to everything you stand for.

The pipelines and highways either go up through Turkey or down the Rivers to Basra.

North is Kurdish land, nice and hilly too, and the South is loaded with Shi'a.

If you think the US convoys got attacked a little bit, just wait until you see ISIS try to move some gas out of Iraq.

They don't have to move anything out of anywhere to have the kind of funds that they've never had before. That's already the case to a certain extent after over running a substantial number of banks in the region. And if they looked to push back the Shia or the Kurds in the future, then who knows what might happen.

thunderlips11 says

Actually, a French Court only overturned the indefinite police custody of illegals ("Sans-papiers") about a year or so ago. 2012 was a record year for deportations in France, too.

So what? Everything you said there is an irrelevance for stopping someone with a valid driving licence for speeding. As I said, once you're in a country, it's not that difficult to disappear.

Bigsby says

Dan8267 says

This guy is a hero.

Seriously?

he does have balls

Bigsby says

Your point?

It's like going after recurring stomach ulcers with Antibiotics and Painkillers, over and over again, instead of getting surgery.

Bigsby says

So what? Everything you said there is an irrelevance for stopping someone with a valid driving licence for speeding. As I said, once you're in a country, it's not that difficult to disappear.

The French certainly deported 20,000 Roma (again). Operation Wetback worked in the 1930s.

When the government wants to, it can and will deport foreigners easily.

There is no irrelevance - most European police can check Visas and Passports at will, and can and do take people in to the immigration authorities.

American police cannot.

http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/diaspora/artikel.php?ID=249424

A country serious about fighting terror will monitor foreigners in the country.

thunderlips11 says

The French certainly deported 20,000 Roma (again). Operation Wetback worked in the 1930s.

When the government wants to, it can and will deport foreigners easily.

So what? All that is a complete irrelevance when talking about your point about a bloody traffic stop.

Bigsby says

So what? All that is a complete irrelevance when talking about your point about a bloody traffic stop.

Again, European cops can check Immigration or Visa status. American ones cannot.

Had the cop who pulled over the 9/11 hijackers, and asked for their papers, they would have been sent to the DHS and deported for visa overstay.

Totally Relevant. The fact that cargo containers are uninspected, that millions cross the border, that US cops can't check Immigration status, shows the US is utterly unserious about terrorism, it's just an excuse to meddle.

Like Humanitarianism.

Looks like the terror thing is pitter-pattering out, and we're swinging into Cold War 2: Containment Strategy Comes Back.

thunderlips11 says

Again, European cops can check Immigration or Visa status. American ones cannot.

Had the cop who pulled over the 9/11 hijackers, and asked for their papers, they would have been sent to the DHS and deported for visa overstay.

And once again, this was for speeding. They had a valid driving licence. Why would they ask for a passport and visa? They wouldn't in the US and they wouldn't in Europe.

thunderlips11 says

Totally Relevant. The fact that cargo containers are uninspected, that millions cross the border, that US cops can't check Immigration status, shows the US is utterly unserious about terrorism, it's just an excuse.

It doesn't show that at all. That is simply not an effective way of fighting terrorism.

Bigsby says

And once again, this was for speeding. They had a valid driving licence. Why would they ask for a passport and visa? They wouldn't in the US and they wouldn't in Europe.

And once again, that point is moot because the cop couldn't check if he wanted to. Perhaps from their accents or behavior he had reason to be suspicious, and decided to check their immigration status?

thunderlips11 says

And once again, that point is moot because the cop couldn't check if he wanted to. Perhaps from their accents or behavior he had reason to be suspicious, and decided to check their immigration status?

If, if, if. There is no reason for any cop anywhere in the US or Europe to demand a passport or visa for a traffic stop for speeding. Your point was that if that traffic stop had happened in Europe, then they would have been arrested and deported. I'm telling you that wouldn't have been the case.

Bigsby says

It doesn't show that at all. it shows that that is not an effective way of fighting terrorism.

No, it's a way of fighting terrorism that interferes with cheap labor and imports, vital to the profits of the 1%. It's much better to have huge lines at airports and take off your shoes, since that is not as much of an imposition on Business. Repeat Elite Travellers have special programs via the TSA, so it doesn't effect them much, only Betty and Bill visiting the kids.

thunderlips11 says

No, it's a way of fighting terrorism that interferes with cheap labor and imports, vital to the profits of the 1%. It's much better to have huge lines at airports and take off your shoes, since that is not as much of an imposition on Business. Repeat Elite Travellers have special programs via the TSA, so it doesn't effect them much, only Betty and Bill visiting the kids.

How many Muslim terrorists do you know have crossed the border via Mexico?

Bigsby says

How many Muslim terrorists do you know have crossed the border via Mexico?

Exactly.

That's how you know terrorism is a baloney problem. We'd be safer, richer, and better off cutting the military budget in half and using it to repair our crumbling infrastructure, build up the smart grid, make highways safer, and invest in R&D.

thunderlips11 says

Exactly.

That's how you know terrorism is a baloney problem. We'd be safer, richer, and better off cutting the military budget in half and using it to repair our crumbling infrastructure, build up the smart grid, make highways safer, and invest in R&D.

Good grief. Talk about switching topics.

thunderlips11 says

That depends. If they were obvious foreigners - like the 9/11 hijackers - they would probably be. If they were Euro or American tourists, probably not. Cops can't check for immigration, and we don't have random ICE/DHS checks (and shouldn't). Let cops check immigration status.

No they wouldn't, they would be ticketed and sent on their way if they had a valid drivers license same as here.

Giving the police the job of immigration is just a bad idea. It's not what they are trained for and I don't like the idea of giving the police more powers to abuse. I don't buy into dan's juvenile hysteria that 99% of cops are terrorists, but there are without a doubt some percentage that are just bad news that don't need any more reasons to harrass people.

Illegal immigration is like drugs, if you don't eliminate the demand then trying to stop the flow is useless. As long as people can hire illegals cheaply without any fear of repercussions you won't stop people from coming in.

What makes you think that terrorists are going to be illegals in the first place. How hard is it to get a tourist visa, business visa, or student visa? They wouldn't have to overstay. How hard would it be to put a large bomb on a cargo ship into port elizibeth or port baltimore? or a foreign flag airliner into jfk? the possibilites are endless. the only way to be "safe" would be to wall up the entire country and stop all entry and exit. We would be a lot safer if we stopped making enemies by playing kingmaker around the globe, but that's not going to happen.

bob2356 says

How hard would it be to put a large bomb on a cargo ship into port elizibeth or port baltimore?

Already addressed this.

thunderlips11 says

Totally Relevant. The fact that cargo containers are uninspected, that millions cross the border, that US cops can't check Immigration status, shows the US is utterly unserious about terrorism, it's just an excuse to meddle.

bob2356 says

How hard is it to get a tourist visa, business visa, or student visa?

It used to be easier:
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=130051

bob2356 says

Giving the police the job of immigration is just a bad idea. It's not what they are trained for and I don't like the idea of giving the police more powers to abuse.

How will you detect illegals and visa overstayers then?

Cops don't find criminals in the process of performing routine traffic stops?
I get your concerns, but how else, once they are in country, can we find them?
bob2356 says

Illegal immigration is like drugs, if you don't eliminate the demand then trying to stop the flow is useless

Stopping drug consumption would require 1984 levels of Police State, telescreens in every home, business, nightclub, alleyway.

Stopping illegals was done before, and the most effective method is to punish the employers for violating Federal Labor laws. They're also easy to find, being registered businesses. It's hard to hide a pea packing plant, lettuce plantation, or a contractor driving around Home Depot at 6AM talking to multiple groups of young men.

bob2356 says

We would be a lot safer if we stopped making enemies by playing kingmaker around the globe, but that's not going to happen.

Of course. If terrorism was a real existential threat, and even if the NSA/FBI/CIA/Ace Tomato Company stopped 95% of attacks (an unimaginable level of success), we would have real, organized terror attacks all the time. Not the very occasional independent/lone wolf actor like in LA, DC, and Boston.

thunderlips11 says

How will you detect illegals and visa overstayers then?

Cops don't find criminals in the process of performing routine traffic stops?

I get your concerns, but how else, once they are in country, can we find them?

They also find criminals at roadblocks (your papers, vee must see your papers) and random stop and searches. They could find a lot more criminals if the police simply did a house by house search of every house in the country. I think the police have too many powers now, never mind giving them more. I've heard america laughing called the worlds largest mininum security prison by people overseas. They might have a point.

Illegals and terrorists aren't synonomous. It's two totally separate issues. Terrorists can easily come in legally. Terrorists are not swimming across the rio grande (ok wading most places, I lived in south texas). They will be flying into jfk and getting their passport stamped by someone saying have a nice stay in america.

Yes stopping illegals can be done easily by going after employers, but it won't ever happen. There is way too much money made by corporations employing illegals for their bought and paid for politicians to cut it off. It's laughable to watch the repugs crying their crocodile tears about illegal immigration while doing everything in their power to prevent it being stopped.

Is it any wonder cameras are not allowed in courtrooms?

bob2356 says

They also find criminals at roadblocks

I agree with this entire paragraph.
bob2356 says

Illegals and terrorists aren't synonomous.

Agreed. The linked ABC article in one my above posts displays how the 9/11 hijackers only partially filled out their visas, were full of errors and ommissions, were granted one anyway. I do remember the Bush Admin/State Dept. fighting Congress over reforming how visas are processed - with the Admin wanting no real reform, of course, being deeply aligned with Saudi Arabia.

If terrorism was remotely an "Existential Threat" we would have long since seen Jihadis sneaking across the border and bombing malls. It hasn't happened because Middle Eastern terrorism is mostly directed inside the Middle East.

AQ was very smart - they got the US more or less permanently playing whackamole in the Middle East, pissing everybody off with their collateral damage bombings and midnight home invasions. The money is flowing out of the Treasury, from a country already experiencing a trade deficit of ~3/4 of a Trillion Dollars annually, year after year after year.

bob2356 says

Yes stopping illegals can be done easily by going after employers, but it won't ever happen. There is way too much money made by corporations employing illegals for their bought and paid for politicians to cut it off. It's laughable to watch the repugs crying their crocodile tears about illegal immigration while doing everything in their power to prevent it being stopped.

Couldn't agree more.

Bigsby says

I'm not arguing that it wasn't right. I'm saying that I believe you are using overblown language to describe his actions.

You're welcome to your opinion. I doubt many people wrongly arrested for standing up for their rights will agree with it.

Strategist says

Dan, Just how are the cops supposed to do their job when you support criminal behavior?

Since when is support Constitutional rights supporting criminal behavior? That's the kind of double-speak that comes from Stalin's Russia.

If the Constitution is important enough to have our soldiers die for, it's important enough to be an inconvenience to power-hungry cops.

Strategist says

That cop is trying to keeping law and order. I see nothing wrong here.

So was Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Saddam, and every other dictator that ever lived. It's HOW "order" is kept that matters.

If you see nothing wrong with using animals to maul human beings than you are no better than a Jihad terrorist.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

That cop is trying to keeping law and order. I see nothing wrong here.

So was Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Saddam, and every other dictator that ever lived. It's HOW "order" is kept that matters.

If you see nothing wrong with using animals to maul human beings than you are no better than a Jihad terrorist.

So Should law and order be kept? By letting rioters have their way? What about the rights of victims to live in safety from criminals?
The purpose of dogs in a police force is to maul humans? Really? Can you name ONE country that does not use police dogs? It's OK for other countries to use police dogs, but when we use them we become a fascist state.
There is no logic in your logic.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Dan, Just how are the cops supposed to do their job when you support criminal behavior?

Since when is support Constitutional rights supporting criminal behavior? That's the kind of double-speak that comes from Stalin's Russia.

If the Constitution is important enough to have our soldiers die for, it's important enough to be an inconvenience to power-hungry cops.

What about the constitutional rights of potential victims to live in safety? You care for the constitutional rights of criminals, but no rights for the police officers who end up shooting someone. To you they are murderers without a trial.
The difference between you and me is, I support the rights of victims and the average citizen, while you support the rights of criminals. If Hollywood was to make a movie about us I would be the "good guy" and you would be the "bad guy" PS...Good guys always win.

The victim is accused of 'strong armed robbery' of a box of 50 dollar cigars.
If this is proven true, it could explain the state of mind of the victim, when he allegedly tried to 'strong arm' the officer.
I have a feeling that the police detractors on this site will tell you that the store owner has no rights, and should just hand over his goods on demand.

Strategist says

What about the rights of victims to live in safety from criminals?

Just another case of a stupid person bringing the wrath of justice onto himself.
Check out the pictures in this link. The robber appears to have got what he deserved.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2014/images/08/15/ferguson-police-report.pdf?hpt=hp_t1