patrick.net

projecting again, are we??

sbh says

Oh, yes. Anyone who comes to an anonymous forum grovelling for validation...

that was dodgerfan...man u need new glasses...

tatupu70 says

dodgerfanjohn says

You are arguing with someone whose position basically boils down to "everyone should have equal stuff".

Nice strawman.

Control Point

I used the word trope in reference to: Henry Ford increased his workers wages to increase the sales of his cars. The idea of increasing minimum wage so as to increase the sales of fast food is also a trope.

Actually I think food is given free to the workers as a perk of the job.

Minimum wage workers do not waste money on fast food.

The reality is that if there is an increase in the money supply compared to price discovery, it will result in an increase in prices, like any other inflation. This is part of the higher cost of RE in the bay area. This is why the hardware business was great around Sutters Mill.

control point says

I'm talking about prices - you are talking about money supply. You have LITERALLY been shown with data numerous times that there is no correlation between prices and money supply.

This is the core argument. Keynesians believe that inflation is nothing more than prices going up.

This is where you go off the rails on this subject.

It is hard to have a controlled experiment in economics because there are always many contributing factors. But inflation at the very least is correlated to an increase in money supply, compared to the value of the service or product.

Here is Mises definition:

Inflation. In popular nonscientific usage, a large increase in the quantity of money in the broader sense (q.v.) which results in a drop in the purchasing power of the monetary unit, falsifies economic calculation and impairs the value of accounting as a means of appraising profits and losses. Inflation affects the various prices, wage rates and interest rates at different times and to different degrees. It thus disarranges consumption, investment, the course of production and the structure of business and industry while increasing the wealth and income of some and decreasing that of others. Inflation does not increase the available consumable wealth. It merely rearranges purchasing power by granting some to those who first receive some of the new quantities of money.
This popular definition, a large increase in the quantity of money, is satisfactory for history and politics but it lacks the precision of a scientific term since the distinction between a small increase and a large increase in quantity of money is indefinite and the differences in their effects are merely a matter of degree.
A more precise concept for use in theoretical analysis is any increase in the quantity of money in the broader sense which is not offset by a corresponding increase in the need for money in the broader sense, so that a fall in the objective exchange-value (purchasing power) of money must ensue.
NOTE: The currently popular fashion of defining inflation by one of its effects, higher prices, tends to conceal from the public the other effects of an increase in the quantity of money whenever the resulting rise in prices is offset by a corresponding drop in prices due to an increase in production. The use of this definition thus weakens the opposition to further increases in the quantity of money by political flat or manipulation and permits a still greater distortion of the economic structure before the inevitable readjustment period, popularly known as a recession or depression (q.v.).

But you will not agree with this point, therefore I agree to disagree.

The thing that angers me is that inflation is considered to be a factor in the economy that is beyond anyone's control. When in fact assholes like Greenspan or Bernanke very much control the money supply. The effects of which are depriving the people of the real exchange they have earned.

Of course this trope has been furthered by politicians because it helps them to get reelected.

CL says

Yawn/yap/yawn.

I know what the minimum wage should be!

Ah, there is the forum level of debate in a nutshell. "I don't know the inputs that need to be weighed to make an intelligent decision, but I know what the output should be! Everyone who doesn't agree is just yapping! I'll ask them questions, but I don't want any answers! Don't bother me with facts! "I don't want to hear the end of any sentences!"" Yawn. Time for more tea.

indigenous says

The reality is that if there is an increase in the money supply compared to price discovery, it will result in an increase in prices, like any other inflation. This is part of the higher cost of RE in the bay area. This is why the hardware business was great around Sutters Mill.

A lot of people don't understand it. They think there is a benefit, they just don't see how short lived that benefit is. For a few month, maybe even a whole year it's a benefit... until prices catch up and everyone is just more f*cked at the end of it.

curious2 says

CL says

Yawn/yap/yawn.

I know what the minimum wage should be!

Ah, there is the forum level of debate in a nutshell. "I don't know the inputs that need to be weighed to make an intelligent decision, but I know what the output should be! Everyone who doesn't agree is just yapping! I'll ask them questions, but I don't want any answers! Don't bother me with facts! "I don't want to hear the end of any sentences!"" Yawn. Time for more tea.

Yes! Is there nothing that cannot be solved with a dash of snark and pithy pissyness?

indigenous says

Henry Ford increased his workers wages to increase the sales of his cars.

He increased wages because the job had long hours and was boring as fuck, and he had retention problems.

prodigy says

better to have a sliding minimum wage validated by minimum work your new rate is $8 to $12/hr, to get 8 you must accomplish XXX, to get 12, accomplish XXX..it's up to the worker.

Sounds like a way to give the employer freedom to pay whatever he wants, within a range that is.

The word *minimum* has a meaning. Under the plan you describe the minimum is 8.

It goes without saying that the employer is free to pay more than the minimum if an employee warrants higher pay, for whatever reason.

thunderlips11 says

He increased wages because the job had long hours and was boring as fuck, and he had retention problems.

Agreed, the statement you quoted was the trope, the meme, the legend, which was not true.

I find it ironic that the same people who push for higher minimum wage, are also the exact same people who get all warm and fuzzy with the concept that fast food workers could be replaced by printing food and an iPhone app.