patrick.net

Ah, a very great half-truth.

Before Athens was a Democracy, it had a Spartan-sympathetic Oligarchy.

Socrates was an asshole, who believed in Aristocracy, the Glen Beck of his day.

He didn't oppose the Oligarchy that the Democracy had replaced. During the Oligarchy, he was assigned to carry somebody who really did speak their mind into exile. He didn't warn the guy, he didn't get on a soapbox and proclaim Free Speech, he stayed at home. He fled every battle he was ever in. Everytime the guy had a chance to put deeds to his fat trap, he didn't.

Socrates was killed because he:

1. Told the sons of Tradesmen if they wanted to be a philosopher, when they inherit all their dad's hard work, his shop, his tools, his knowledge, his customer base -- sell it off, buy a small farm and some slaves to work it, and then hang out on the streets. Pissed off a lot of people. ("Corrupting the Youth")
2. He molested the same sons of Tradesmen. Greek Pederasty was for young men and old teens, not for old men and young teens. The idea was that it keeps the young men out of trouble and out of the beds of men with wives. ("Corrupting the Youth")
3. He supported the previous Oligarchy ("Impiety")
4. He ranted against Democracy. ("Impiety"
5. He wasn't the first philosopher, or one to raise unusual questions that challenged the status quo. Athenians were used to old men postulating about hermaphrodite humans that split in the middle and all that weird shit.

6. Walked around saying he was the Gods' Gift to Athens ("Impiety")

https://newhumanist.org.uk/articles/2021/why-socrates-died-by-robin-waterfield

Don't know about that, I must of been all errc'ed back in that class.

At any rate they did not mention that in the film? But certainly that he went against the democracy which you conjecture against. You may be right though I don't know. After reading a little on Lincoln, I was shocked at what an absolute asshole he was.

It is hard to imagine that they had much of an economy for the oligarchy to control though.

The overarching point that I took away was how the attributes discussed in the film resemble the US today.

And that the tyranny of democracy did not work then either

And that Democrats start wars then and now.

I don't think we are a democracy, I think we are a Republic ran by the elite.

As far as wars, our national debt is right there, don't think anyone cares.

FortWayne says

I don't think we are a democracy, I think we are a Republic ran by the elite.

As far as wars, our national debt is right there, don't think anyone cares.

Yup but by virtue of the fact that Obama got elected by the common people it is a de facto democracy. The cronyism part comes in through lobbying. Goldman has had a person on the cabinet for 50 years.

indigenous says

And that Democrats start wars then and now.

Republicans don't?
Monarchies don't?
Paternal Autocrat states don't?
Dictatorships don't?

They all do.

Indigenous, I beg you, please read a book on Lincoln that isn't published by Regnery. I suggest MacPhearson, who will offer the other side of the story Woods and the gang leave out.
http://www.amazon.com/Abraham-Lincoln-James-M-McPherson/dp/0195374525

thunderlips11 says

Republicans don't?

In the past 100yr there was Bush Sr and Jr all the rest were Ds

thunderlips11 says

Indigenous, I beg you, please read a book on Lincoln that isn't published by Regnery. I suggest MacPhearson, who will offer the other side of the story Woods and the gang leave out

Give me a compelling reason?

indigenous says

Give me a compelling reason?

You shouldn't get just one side of the story. Woods will leave out information damaging to his thesis. And almost everything that Lincoln did - Conscription, Money Printing/Inflation, Spying on the Telegraphs, etc. - Jefferson Davis did as well. The South was actually the first of the two to conscript.

thunderlips11 says

You shouldn't get just one side of the story. Woods will leave out information damaging to his thesis. And almost everything that Lincoln did - Conscription, Money Printing/Inflation, Spying on the Telegraphs, etc. - Jefferson Davis did as well. The South was actually the first of the two to conscript.

How about the violations of habeas corpus?

The instigation of the war at Fort Sumter?

How about doubling the tariff that created the tension in the first place?

How about the decided bias for the north who elected him?

How about personally profiting by using insider information about where the Railroad was going to go?

How about not giving rats ass about freeing the slaves?

How about the only country in the world that had to end slavery by war?

How about the fact that Federal law was the only reason that slavery kept going in the first place as Reality has indicated that otherwise the slaves would have escaped and not be returned?

The other seems rather mild?

Oh BTW Lincoln got 1 million Americans killed, 600k directly from the war and the rest indirectly.

I'm sure we can depend on Democrats & Republicans to bring back our true Democracy with the help of lobbyists.

Edit @ 9:13: Bought & paid for Fuckers!

indigenous says

How about the violations of habeas corpus?

Constitution of the Confederate States of America
Sec. 9 (3) The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

PROCLAMATION. [FEBRUARY 27, 1862.]
Whereas the Congress of the Confederate States has by law vested in the President the power to suspend the writ of habeas corpus in cities in danger of attack by the enemy:
Now therefore I, Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America, do hereby proclaim that martial law is extended over the cities of Norfolk and Portsmouth and the surrounding country to the distance of 10 miles from said cities, and all civil jurisdiction and the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus are hereby declared to be sus-pended within the limits aforesaid.
This proclamation will remain in force until otherwise ordered.
In faith whereof I have hereunto set my hand and seal, at the city of Richmond, on this twenty-seventh day of February, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-two.

JEFFERSON DAVIS.

http://gettysburgproject.com/post/52988702283/this-month-during-the-civil-war-february-1862

indigenous says

The instigation of the war at Fort Sumter?

Yes, the Southerners attempted to cut off and eventually seize the Fort without negotiations. Northern Tax money built that fort.

indigenous says

How about doubling the tariff that created the tension in the first place?

The Democrats had been cutting Tariffs since the 1840s. The Morrill Tariff restored Tariffs only to where they were before 1857, just a few years earlier, after substantial cutting for a decade before that.

Tariffs are the reason the US had an industry and didn't end up like Colombia, Cuba, or Mexico, wealthy landlords with Indian/Slave labor who couldn't give a shit if there was industry or not; their wives ordered the latest patterns, housewears, and cutlery from Europe.

The only reason the Morrill Tariff was able to pass was because by mid-1860 Southerners had already resigned from Congress. The big issue among Southerners was Slavery, which sucked up most of the time and effort. The amount of time they spent talking about tariffs was minimal. The continuously lowering Tariffs were seen as a bribe to keep the south in, not a reason for them to leave - and tariffs worked both ways. Northern Industry faced high tariffs importing hemp, cotton, etc. from Abroad - like Mexico - in return, to benefit Southern slaveowners.

The Tariff was such a disaster, it remained in place until 1913 and oversaw the greatest expansion of the industrial and productive growth in the US ever, and one of the most rapid expansions ever recorded - on par with China of the past 30 years.

indigenous says

How about the decided bias for the north who elected him?

Who cares? Slaves added 3/5th of a man to Congressional Delegates for the South, but they couldn't vote for themselves. The South already had a major advantage.

indigenous says

How about personally profiting by using insider information about where the Railroad was going to go?

Never heard of this one.

indigenous says

How about not giving rats ass about freeing the slaves?

Not true.

Executive Mansion,
Washington, August 22, 1862.

Hon. Horace Greeley:
Dear Sir.

I have just read yours of the 19th. addressed to myself through the New-York Tribune. If there be in it any statements, or assumptions of fact, which I may know to be erroneous, I do not, now and here, controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here, argue against them. If there be perceptable in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to be right.

As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing" as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.

I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free.

Yours,
A. Lincoln.

http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/greeley.htm

indigenous says

How about the only country in the world that had to end slavery by war?

Awwww, those unfortunate Man Stealers, the poor dears.
indigenous says

How about the fact that Federal law was the only reason that slavery kept going in the first place as Reality has indicated that otherwise the slaves would have escaped and not be returned?

The Fugitive Slave Act was passed with Southern Backing and enforced by a Southern-dominated Supreme Court.

I call it the "My States' Right in your State, Too"

thunderlips11 says

I call it the "My States' Right in your State, Too"

These days we even have "My Countries Right in your Country, Too"