patrick.net

thunderlips11 says

Has everything to do with it, and it's not in the distant past, but the recent past. Things that happened in the lifetime of millions still living today.

Your knowledge of history, and emotional reaction to relative poverty, is blinding you to the obvious facts that went on in Greece this past decade. The opportunities they had and how they treated (and are still treating) other countries.

Heraclitusstudent says

Your knowledge of history, and emotional reaction to relative poverty, is blinding you to the obvious facts that went on in Greece this past decade. The opportunities they had and how they treated (and are still treating) other countries.

I don't know how you can dismiss the extensive handouts, debt forgiveness, ultra-low interest on decades of delayed loan repayments, directed investments and purchases, and other special treatment Germany has received since WW2 as a nothing burger in their success.

The Germans ought to be thanking the US and UK for not imposing the Morgenthau plan; instead the Germans think they dids it all bys themselfs.

DieBankOfAmericaPhukkingDie says

Fuck the Huns!

Make them pay the debts they were forgiven!

Can we invade through Switzerland?

I feel strongly that Switzerland is United States soil: "We're gonna remain neutral in a conflict where one side is genocidal fascists, but we'll still take bank deposits from whomever. And good luck getting your money after the war, Joos! Bwahahahaha!"

Give Lucerne to the Walton family and turn Zurich into a U.S. federal prison and Section 8 housing.

thunderlips11 says

I don't know how you can dismiss the extensive handouts, debt forgiveness, ultra-low interest on decades of delayed loan repayments, directed investments and purchases, and other special treatment Germany has received since WW2 as a nothing burger in their success.

Yeah because Germany was not bombed, with entire cities destroyed, with millions killed, with infrastructures devastated, with the country partitioned, and the government changed to a new one that shared none of the ideology of the third Reich. All while Greece received no help.
Yeah that really explains the divergence of these 2 countries.
Well, no it doesn't.

Heraclitusstudent says

Yeah because Germany was not bombed, with entire cities destroyed, with millions killed, with infrastructures devastated, with the country partitioned, and the government changed to a new one that shared none of the ideology of the third Reich. All while Greece received no help.

Germany was bombed for a good reason, though it did little. German industry increased productivity every month of the war until the last few months mostly due to resource shortages due to take over of critical areas like the Polesti oil fields, not bombing. Strategic Bombing, from the Bomber Box of WW2 to Operation Linebacker, has always failed to be decisive. The real contribution of Strategic Bombing, at an unbelievable cost in the lives of Allied Airmen (8th USAAF deadliest service of the war for America) was to draw German Air Power away from their skill at battlefield air superiority and close air support towards defensive interceptors, while grinding down their Pilot Pool.

In fact, the German economy was in such great shape from lavish US Grants and Aid, that by the mid 50s Germany was importing Turks to work in factories and farms.

Germany looted Greece thoroughly, and imposed a massive forced loan on the country that was never paid back. Nor has it paid back reparations of the execution of countless Greeks.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/greek-study-provides-evidence-of-forced-loans-to-nazis-a-1024762.html

German recalcitrance is providing others with an opportunity, however:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/11526546/Putin-returns-Nazi-looted-icon-to-Greek-prime-minister.html

And doing a helluva job reminding everybody of the negatives the last time Europe was under the control of Germany.

thunderlips11 says

The real contribution of Strategic Bombing, at an unbelievable cost in the lives of Allied Airmen (8th USAAF deadliest service of the war for America) was to draw German Air Power away from their skill at battlefield air superiority and close air support towards defensive interceptors, while grinding down their Pilot Pool.

Again you are getting lost in irrelevant details of history.

This Tsipras guy is a child throwing tantrums.
He's actually announcing a referendum on obeying rules that were already agreed by Greece in a treaty, and doing so after the date at which is country is bankrupt anyway.
.... And he recommends a vote for a path that would essentially destroy Greece economy... just because he's unwilling to take that responsibility himself.
The guy is totally unable to take a pragmatic decision based on a given reality.

I feel sorry for the Greek people.

anonymous says

Representative democracy offers choices with no consequences: no matter which politico and party is elected, the promises of endless swag remain unchanged.

In contrast, direct democracy offers choices with consequences: voters make a choice of policies that, whether intended or not, have consequences.

Direct democracy could work if someone actually explained people how the world works and what the consequences are. Which is exactly what will never happen: you have demagogs, saying this banks faults, this is Merkel's fault, this is because Greece was bombed 70 yrs ago, etc, etc... and you just have to vote NO to regain your dignity, and the economy will rebound right back.

This is how you get to situations where a majority of Greeks want to stay in the euro but also want austerity to end. i.e. a large part of the electorate doesn't even know these are mutually exclusive.

In any case this referendum comes after the decision will already be taken in the facts. If Tsipras was not a cynical idiot, he would have called this vote in May, the question should have been "Do you want the Euro AND the attached austerity program?" and he should explained clearly the consequences of saying no.

Heraclitusstudent says

this is because Greece was bombed 70 yrs ago

That's what amazes me: domestic tax collection is a disaster in Greece and, on the spending end, there is no accountability for any public official who says "More, more more" all day. Greece has been governed by incompetent, corrupt, unaccountable shits for several decades.

Yet this is a problem created by the bad ol' Nazis.