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What should you pay for a house?


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2015 Jul 11, 2:06pm   37,356 views  71 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (60)   💰tip   ignore  

Answer: It depends on rents and interest rates.

Rent and interest are the same kind of thing. They are what you pay to use
something -- either to use a house, or to use money. Interest is the rent paid on
borrowed money. To know whether to buy, you just have to compare one rental
option to the other.

Even if you use your own money to buy a house outright, you're still in the
rental game -- you are renting to yourself. Even though all the rent goes to
yourself, owning is still a lousy investment if you overpay for a house.

Say you can pay cash for a $250,000 house that would rent for $1,000 per month.
Should you buy it? That depends on current interest rates.

$250,000 invested at the current interest rate will produce a certain amount of
income for you each year. Ignoring taxes for now, say you can get 5% by
investing in bonds with no risk of loss. This means that $250,000 will return
$12,500 per year, since $250,000 x 5% = $12,500.

So if you have $250,000 and need a place to live, your choice is between these
two options for the coming year:

  • Buy the house for $250,000 and don't pay any rent.
  • Invest the $250,000 at 5%, and pay $1,000 rent per month to live in a house.

Which one is better? In the first case, you're not getting any investment
income, but not paying any rent either. Owning outright means giving up
interest rather than paying interest, a different kind of loss, but a loss
nonetheless. In the second case, you're getting $12,500 in interest income from
your bonds, but paying out $12,000 in rent. $12,500 income - $12,000 rent =
$500

So you would be $500 better off in the coming year as a renter.


"But I don't have $250,000 to pay for a house. I would have to borrow it."

In that case, it's an even worse deal to buy a house. Let's start with the
simplest case: an interest-only mortgage. To borrow $250,000, say you'll have to
pay 6%. If your credit is bad, you'll have to pay more. Let's assume you have
good credit and get a 6% interest-only mortgage.

The interest on $250,000 at 6% is $15,000 per year. In effect, that's the yearly
rent you have to pay to use the money. These are now your two options for the
coming year:

  • Buy the house for $250,000 in borrowed money, and pay $15,000 in interest.
  • Pay $1,000 rent per month to live in a house, so $12,000 per year.

Buying would cost $15,000 in interest, but you could pay only $12,000 in rent.
So you would be $3,000 better off per year as a renter.


"What if I put down 20%? Would that help?"

Not much. That's just a combination of the two cases above, both of which show
it is worse to buy than to rent. So it would still be worse to buy.

If you have 20% of $250,000, that's $50,000. If you could get 5% by putting that
$50,000 in bonds rather than in a house, that would be $2,500 per year in interest income.

These are now your two options for the coming year:

  • Buy the house for $200,000 in borrowed money plus your $50,000 downpayment,
    and pay 6% interest on the $200,000, which is $12,000.

  • Pay $12,000 rent per year to live in a house, but collect $2,500 in bond
    interest.

So buying would cost you $12,000 per year, and renting would also cost $12,000
per year, but if you rent, you get the $2,500 in interest on your $50,000.
So you would be $2,500 better off as a renter.


"But I'll get a conventional 30-year mortgage, not an interest-only mortgage."

That's still just a combination of the first two cases. As you pay off the debt,
the interest you pay each month decreases, but the principal you are putting
into your house is still a poor investment relative to your other options, like
CD's, the stock market, or bonds.


"What about the tax advantage of mortage interest?"

It's not enough to offset the other costs of owning a house. It's true that you
can reduce your taxable income by the amount of mortgage interest you pay, but
the other costs of owning eliminate that advantage. Furthermore, every married
couple gets a $11,400 standard deduction, just for breathing.

Take the previous case, but say that you pay that $12,000 in interest with
pre-tax money. You've really paid it, and it's really gone, but since you didn't
have to pay income tax on that money before spending it on interest, it's not
quite as painful. At a 28% marginal income tax rate, it's only 72% as painful as
paying $12,000 in post tax money. So let's say your interest payment is only
$8,640, which is 72% of $12,000.

But we should also consider that you'll have to pay property tax, maintenance,
and insurance on your house, forever. Property tax is typically 1.5%,
maintenance is about 1.5%, and let's say you can get house insurance for $1,000
per year. So for your $250,000 house, that's $3,750 property tax, $3,750
maintenance, and $1,000 insurance, a total of $8,500.

These are now your two options for the coming year:

  • Buy the house for $200,000 in borrowed money plus your $50,000 downpayment,
    and pay $8,640 interest after income deduction, plus $8,500 in property tax,
    maintenance, and insurance, a total of $17,140.

  • Pay $12,000 rent per year to live in a house, but collect $2,500 in bond
    interest. Property tax, maintenance, and insurance are paid by your
    landlord, so you have a net cost of $9,500 as a renter.

Buying would cost you $17,140 per year, but renting would cost you $9,500.
So you would be $7,640 better off as a renter. (Not even considering the
standard income deduction.)


"But haven't houses always appreciated in the long term?"

House prices track inflation, on average, in the long term. Prices did rise a
lot from 2001 to 2005, but that was very unusual, caused by exceptionally low
interest rates and very lax lending standards. Prices peaked in the middle of
2005, and have been falling since then. If prices fall another 5% in the coming
year, as they did last year, then your choice is this one:

  • A cost of $17,140 from the previous case, plus a 5% loss on your
    $250,000 house. That 5% loss is $12,500, for a total owner's cost of $29,640.

  • The renter has the same $9,500 cost as before, and does not care about
    the depreciation of the building he's in.

So you would be $20,140 better off as a renter.

If you look at the very long term, houses have been the worst investment
available to the general public:


From Yahoo finance


"But the bond interest is taxable, so you don't really get 5%"

Buying a bond is just the simplest possible investment example and not necessarily
the best one. You can actually get 5% and defer taxes for decades, or not even
have to pay tax at all. There are a few well-known ways:

  • Buy your bonds in your 401K account. 401K's are tax-deferred until
    retirement.

  • Buy your bonds in your Roth IRA. The principal you put
    into your Roth IRA is post-tax, but all the accumulated earnings are completely
    tax free, as long as you keep them in the account until retirement.

  • Buy US Treasuries in a taxable account. Though the rates are a bit lower
    than CD's, maybe 4% instead of 5%, there is no state tax on US Treasury bond
    interest.

  • Buy municipal bonds from your state. Now the interest rate is even lower,
    maybe 3%, but there is no state or federal tax on the interest.

  • Buy and hold solid dividend-paying stocks. If you hold a stock for more than
    a year, the tax rate on any gains is only 15%. And you can put off the tax
    indefinitely just by continuing to hold the stock.

  • Buy and hold index funds. Index funds, which are mutual funds that mirror
    stock market indexes like the Dow or S&P 500, have historically risen much
    faster than housing. And you can hold them indefinitely and put off the capital
    gains tax as long as you like.

  • Pay off debt. If you pay off credit card debt and avoid 20% interest rates,
    you're way ahead of even the best professional investors. If a penny saved is a
    penny earned, then 20% saved is 20% earned. Actually, it's even better because
    it's tax free.

  • Pay rent in advance for a discount. If you can get a 5% discount by paying
    an extra month's rent in advance, you've earned 5% in one month. That's an
    annualized rate of 60%, which is an insanely great return.

"What about leverage?"

When you hear someone telling you why you should use maximum leverage in real
estate, run, do not walk, RUN to the nearest exit!

Leverage is a bet that the appreciation will be greater than the cost of
borrowing. For example, if you buy a $100,000 house at 6% with nothing down,
and the house goes up 5% in a year, are you $5,000 ahead? Maybe. You spent
$6,000 in interest, plus all the others costs of owning, but you got the use of
the house plus the $5000. For many years this bet worked, so people assumed it
would continue that way forever.

The problem is that leverage works both ways. What if the house goes down 5%?
Then you've spent your $6,000 in interest, AND you've lost $5,000. Leverage is
the evil that bankrupts the most people during every housing market downturn.

Warren Buffet said the greatest threats to personal wealth are "liquor and
leverage."


"What about inflation?"

Most of the apparent gain in housing value has actually been inflation. What
you really care about is after-inflation returns. A glance at the
after-inflation returns of various investments in the table above shows that
housing has the lowest real return.

Banks take inflation into account when lending you the money to buy a house. You
can be sure you will be compensating the bank for the expected rate of
inflation. On the other hand, it's possible that the banks will be wrong and
inflation skyrockets, greatly reducing the value of the debt that borrowers owe.
In that case, owners do win, and banks lose. This happened in the S&L crisis of
the 1980's.


"But rents will rise, while a fixed mortgage payment will not."

Rents have not been rising in most places. In fact, they are being driven down
by the large glut of available housing because there has been way too much
building going on due to artificially low interest rates. My own rent is still
less than it was 10 years ago, during the dot-com bubble.

Rising rents (but not rising house prices) are counted as inflation by the
Federal Reserve, so if rents rise significantly, interest rates will probably
also rise as the Fed tries to prevent inflation from from overheating the
economy. That means it may still be a worse deal to buy, because it will cost
more to borrow money. Property taxes, maintenance, and insurance will also rise
with inflation.

If you own outright and interest rates rise, then the value of your house falls,
because fewer people can borrow enough to buy it.


"Anything else?"

Well, yes, I didn't mention the 6% that the agents will take in commissions.
That reduces the resale value of your house to you by another $15,000. There
are also thousands of dollars in closing fees, and PMI (Private Mortgage
Insurance) if you can't come up with the 20% downpayment.


"So what should I do?"

Don't take financial advice from agents, lenders, mortgage brokers, or anyone
else who gets paid only if they convince you to buy. Put in your own numbers and
calculate what it would really cost you to own rather than to rent.

Here are some housing calculators that may be useful:

#housing

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57   RedStar   2015 Jul 13, 4:36pm  

The great thing about a mortgage is that you can make it go away. You just have to be a diligent buyer.

I bought in 2010 almost at the last market bottom and have just 10 years left on my first home. 20% down, 15 yr fixed that has been refi'd to under 3%.

Had I listened to the "sage" advice posted in this thread I'd be kicking myself paying almost as much in rent.

58   Patrick   2015 Jul 13, 6:49pm  

If you actually did the math then good for you.

If you just assumed is not possible to overpay then you deserve no credit. Literally.

59   bob2356   2015 Jul 14, 11:57pm  


bob2356 says


But forever after, the renter is gaining 6% or so while the owner is getting 3% or so. So then the only question is whether the 6% that the renter is getting is being evened out by the rent he has to pay.

That is incorrect. The owner will now have the amount that was going to mortgage to invest every month in addition to the 3% gain in value.

no, it is correct, because the owner and renter both continue to invest the same amount every month, and they both invested $360K in an asset (house vs stock).

so the question at that point is just whether the renter's extra income from investing in stock is enough to cover his rent.

I'm still waiting for some type of real world scenario where 360k houses rent for 1000 a month and people put an extra 883 in investments on top of that every month. Yea sure right. The rule of thumb is still 1.1% minus .1% each 100k up to 400k. So 1.1% up to 100k, 1.0% up to 200k, .9% up to 300k, etc,etc. A 360k house should rent for 2880 (360000 x .008) which is about right most places I've looked and I've looked at a lot of places in the last year.


actually it does not have to cover anything in rich areas. there are literally people around palo alto who buy houses and let them sit vacant. sometimes they rent them out, sometimes they don't. but that's because this place is nutty and there is too much money sloshing about.

That's nice for the .1% of the country where this is true. Landlords in the other 99.9% of the country have to pay their mortgage, taxes, insurance, and repairs.

Your bias is irrational. There are times and places it's better to rent, there are times and places it's better to buy.

60   anonymous   2015 Jul 16, 12:37pm  

bob2356 says

A 360k house should rent for 2880 (360000 x .008) which is about right most places I've looked and I've looked at a lot of places in the last year.

Really? I rent a place in a nice area of San Diego that's $2900/month but would list for $720,000. Are house prices wildly too high, or is my rent ridiculously low?

61   bob2356   2015 Jul 16, 1:07pm  

debyne says

bob2356 says

A 360k house should rent for 2880 (360000 x .008) which is about right most places I've looked and I've looked at a lot of places in the last year.

Really? I rent a place in a nice area of San Diego that's $2900/month but would list for $720,000. Are house prices wildly too high, or is my rent ridiculously low?

What part of most places didn't you get. There are always some places outside (sometimes way outside) the norm in either direction. Your rent is low, or your list price is off. The median house price in sd is 435k, the median rent for a 3 bd is 2800. Something is skewed here. Why is your rent the same as people renting houses selling at almost half the price?

I rented a mcmansion on the beach in NZ listed for 2.5 million nz 1.8 usd for 2100 nz a month. It's now listed at 1.1 million and still not sold. The word listed is meaningless.

62   anonymous   2015 Jul 17, 4:24pm  

bob2356 says

What part of most places didn't you get.

No need to be an asshole. I was genuinely interested in your opinion.

63   EastCoastBubbleBoy   2015 Jul 17, 4:43pm  

I went with price per ft2.
My payment (including taxes & insc.) was a bit 2x what my rent was... but the place was 2x as big plus land.... also rents went up at the place I was, while our taxes went DOWN since we fought the assessed value.

64   bob2356   2015 Jul 17, 6:13pm  

debyne says

bob2356 says

What part of most places didn't you get.

No need to be an asshole. I was genuinely interested in your opinion.

Sorry, I thought it was yet another california is the center of the universe post.

65   EastCoastBubbleBoy   2015 Jul 17, 6:40pm  

my other observation is that at least in my area once you get beyond a 2 bdr place, most 3 bdr plus rentals are people who are underwater and trying to cover their monthly nut... so the leap in rent to go from the place I was in to a place with more space would have been significant... but as with real estate we're talking about ASKING rents... not what they actually pull down once the contract is inked.

In short, we made out OK... not a great steal, but probably a fair deal given where the market was. anecdotally, the place I was renting in raised the rent significantly after we left... as with most things timing is everything. a little bit of luck never hurts either.

66   Strategist   2015 Jul 17, 7:44pm  

bob2356 says

Sorry, I thought it was yet another california is the center of the universe post.

It is. And the world revolves around it.

67   zzyzzx   2015 Jul 17, 8:22pm  

Or you can just move to Baltimore City where housing is cheap. The closer to the burned out CVS, the cheaper.

68   zzyzzx   2015 Jul 17, 8:23pm  

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

but as with real estate we're talking about ASKING rents... not what they actually pull down once the contract is inked.

They will ask for their bloated asking price again when it's up for renewal.

69   SFace   2015 Jul 18, 6:37pm  

The reality is your typical owner in Palo alto is much richer than the renter. I.Don't know, millions more.

They own all homes and almost all the stocks. You cant tell me with a straight face that is the winning formula. Renting in Menlo park for two decades.

These points sounds great in theory, but fails the reality test.

70   FortWayne   2015 Jul 19, 4:27pm  

Investment properties valuate much different from residential.

71   SFace   2015 Jul 20, 12:15am  

The returns gragh is reason why software guys should stay away from commenting about housing.

You get that result if the home is vacant. In the real world, duh, homes collect rent or avoid rent. Once that duh,momment comes in, real estate is the best investment vehicle.

You know that because it pass the eyes test as the rich ass owns all the land. Real estate is the most common path to wealth in this world.

You know that real estate kick ass because the vanguard real estate index beats the legendary 500 index if you bought both from day 1 of existence. Look it up yourself. Vanguard real estate index vgsix, which has a 20 year history would made you a richer than the 500.

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