patrick.net

zzyzzx says

tatupu70 says

How about we raise the supply instead? So everyone can attend college for a reasonable sum

Because we already have too many college graduates, and subsidizing something that we already have too many of is just plain stupid.

lol--we have too many high school dropouts, too many high school educated, too many some college educated. The least of our problems is too many college grads.

Even better than cutting college funding---why not just kill off a bunch of people? That would really cut demand.

Call it Crazy says

Here's a novel concept, stop subsidizing college costs with federal backed loans... Guess what would happen to tuition costs if colleges knew students couldn't get easy money by just signing their names on loan docs.

Great--another advocate of a caste system. If you're not born into money, eff you.

This is the CRA of edu loans. Just like they gave out loans to the people who had a high likelyhood of not paying back, (and their credit score reflect than), these loans will go to the liberal arts, communications, outdoor studies, and create bad degrees as much as the CRA helped boast up bad loans. It may even jack up tuition prices, because the less skin one has in the game, the less they care about what the costs are.

The people who become doctors, scientists, econ, and some of the other societal contributors would do so regardless. Funny how I have friends from asia who parents would mortgage their house for a son/daughter in a science degree.

tatupu70 says

Great--another advocate of a caste system. If you're not born into money, eff you.

You can still work your way through college. I've done it TWICE!!! I think the real problem is that you are too fucking lazy to do that.

It will mean just higher salaries and benefits for college administrators. FSU president retired with $235,000 a year retirement and the next day hired by Florida State for $300,000 a year. Total in 2 years more than average state of Florida employee is paid in 30 years. TK Wetherell. Same for provost, and many many state college and university presidents and administrators. Ripping off taxpayers, students and their parents along with tuition increases. Greedy immoral crooks. Same all over the country $200, $300,000 salaries that they could not earn anywhere else in the world.

Shall we say "desperate?" Is she totally clueless about who pays for everything? I can't believe Democrat silver spoons? They think money grows on trees.

zzyzzx says

You can still work your way through college. I've done it TWICE!!! I think the real problem is that you are too fucking lazy to do that.

What is it with you and CIC? Why do you constantly try to make things about the poster instead of the topic at hand? Is it because you know you're wrong?

zzyzzx says

It will mean just higher salaries and benefits for college administrators. FSU president retired with $235,000 a year retirement and the next day hired by Florida State for $300,000 a year. Total in 2 years more than average state of Florida employee is paid in 30 years. TK Wetherell. Same for provost, and many many state college and university presidents and administrators. Ripping off taxpayers, students and their parents along with tuition increases. Greedy immoral crooks. Same all over the country $200, $300,000 salaries that they could not earn anywhere else in the world.

Why don't you believe in the free market? Is it that difficult to find some more teachers and a few buildings? Is it that difficult for established universities to create online programs? I would think that the market could create plenty of supply easily.

And if not, then the free market isn't working, and some sort of regulation is needed.

tatupu70 says

lol--we have too many high school dropouts, too many high school educated, too many some college educated. The least of our problems is too many college grads.

Even better than cutting college funding---why not just kill off a bunch of people? That would really cut demand.

Careful tatu, you might be accused of being a "Say'sian" with talk like this. I think our current situation reflects an underutilization of post secondary education itself. Government investment to increase demand for educated workers themselves is the best use of public funds, imho.

The net effect in increasing college participation throughout the population is a transfer of the cost of career training from the employer to the employee. Much better for the employer when his employees have already been taught professional writing or general salesmanship (at their own cost) before coming on the payroll. Would prefer we focus public funding for high education on those who are most educatable, myself. We all benefit very little from Pell grants and Direct Loans to C students. Especially C students at private institutions in anything lower than Tier I.

control point says

We all benefit very little from Pell grants and Direct Loans to C students. Especially C students at private institutions in anything lower than Tier I.

I'm not sure about that. I think we've had several Presidents that were C students. Whether they used Pell grants is really irrelevant because it shows that C students with the proper education can be very valuable to society.

Regardless, however, my point is that if we're going to limit the number of people who go to college it should be done by merit. Not by how much money your family has, like it is now. The reason college campuses are full is because every kid from a wealthy family goes to school, regardless of their grades or test scores. If you have money, there will be a school that takes you.

tatupu70 says

Regardless, however, my point is that if we're going to limit the number of people who go to college it should be done by merit. Not by how much money your family has, like it is now. The reason college campuses are full is because every kid from a wealthy family goes to school, regardless of their grades or test scores. If you have money, there will be a school that takes you.

I agree, this is basically the plan I laid out above. Free public education for the top performers. No possibility of public higher education for anything less than a top performer. Remove public funding for student loans and make them truly unsecured by making them dischargeable in bankruptcy.

If private schools want to compete for top performers, they will need to make it free for them as well. In order to pay for the cost of this, they will need to charge a sufficiently high amount from rich daddies to cover the cost of these "free" rides. If private schools do not offer "free" rides to top performers, then they will attract no top performers - significantly reducing the quality of their graduates. If the quality of their graduates falls, it will be less likely that the rich will pay for this diminished value "inferior" education.

Eliminating the transfer of default risk to the government, and eliminating the additional statutory security of this debt, will make the cost of it (given current default rates) so high it would no longer be a viable option. Very few lenders would offer $50-100k of unsecured debt to a C student. The chance of payback is low.

Great--another advocate of a caste system. If you're not born into money

----------

Bless your bleeding heart. You care so much more about the poor than the rest of us that you'd want to help them out with a lifetime of debt so that they can get a piece of paper deeming them more educated. I'm sure they owe you a big thank you

errc says

Bless your bleeding heart. You care so much more about the poor than the rest of us that you'd want to help them out with a lifetime of debt so that they can get a piece of paper deeming them more educated. I'm sure they owe you a big thank you

I don't recall saying they should have a lifetime of debt. That's your plan. I want to create more schools/programs so there is competition for students and tuition goes down.

And it's a bit more than a piece of paper saying you're educated. You actually are more educated. Which is why businesses value it.

tatupu70 says

What is it with you and CIC? Why do you constantly try to make things about the poster instead of the topic at hand? Is it because you know you're wrong?

It's because you are the one who is wrong. There is nothing wrong with working your way through college. you just think work is too good for you to do it and/or think things should be handed out to people who should be working for it. Get a job!

zzyzzx says

There is nothing wrong with working your way through college. you just think work is too good for you to do it and/or think things should be handed out to people who should be working for it. Get a job!

Working your way through college is great. But it's a bit of an antiquated notion at this point. How is a high school educated person going to earn enough to pay for a $40K+/year education? It was possible 30 years ago, but I'm not sure it's feasible anymore.

So you think the ability to get an education should be decided by the birth lottery?

tatupu70 says

Working your way through college is great. But it's a bit of an antiquated notion at this point. How is a high school educated person going to earn enough to pay for a $40K+/year education? It was possible 30 years ago, but I'm not sure it's feasible anymore.

So you think the ability to get an education should be decided by the birth lottery?

Some people work their way through college today. I did it in the 80's and 90's, and it wasn't a problem either time. You just don't want to work. Your just another liberal elitist who thinks that working in fast food is "too good" for white people. I have had jobs where I picked up trash!

zzyzzx says

Some people work their way through college today. I did it in the 80's and 90's, and it wasn't a problem either time. You just don't want to work. Your just another liberal elitist who thinks that working in fast food is "too good" for white people. I have had jobs where I picked up trash!

lol--you have no idea what I have done in the past or what I do now. It's not relevant to the discussion because we're not talking about me.

Working in fast food is fine. But you're not going to pay for a college education flipping burgers. You get that--right?

Call it Crazy says

Which shows AGAIN why you're so fucking clueless...

What fool pays $40K a year for college?

People who want to go to the best universities, apparently.

Call it Crazy says

Which shows AGAIN why you're so fucking clueless...

What fool pays $40K a year for college?

Are you kidding me? That's pretty close to the AVERAGE.

http://nces.ed.gov/FastFacts/display.asp?id=76

Your own state school is slightly better at $26.2K in state, but $41.5 out of state

http://admissions.rutgers.edu/Costs/TuitionAndFees.aspx#3

That's before books, spending money, etc. I'd add another $3K at least.

Call it Crazy says

I didn't ask you what the school CHARGES, I asked what fool PAYS $40K a year...

Apparently I got my answer who the fool is....

You.

Call it Crazy says

I didn't ask you what the school CHARGES, I asked what fool PAYS $40K a year...

Apparently I got my answer who the fool is....

huh? If the average cost is $35K, then roughly half of the college students are paying $35K. I figured you'd be able to reach that conclusion on your own.

Call it Crazy says

What fool pays $40K a year for college?

Stepping back a bit, we again have Democrats (Ds) identifying a huge albatross around the neck of the middle class. The Ds are looking for solutions, and the Republicans (Rs) are cock-blocking.

Even the people on this board understand the negative impact on prices that easy money has. So, we can see a problem with the Ds solution. But, the Rs again offer no solution - not the candidates or anyone on this board. They just deny the issue, piss and crap on everything, and blame it on illegal immigrants, blacks, women, and political correctness.

Lofty pie in the sky populist rabble rousing schemes is NOT a solution.

Expecially when you got Monsters like Gruber in the wings waiting to take ownership of those projects the Libs greenlight.
Liberals don't have solutions they have ideas that change based on what needs to be said to win the vote.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/p/briefing/factsheets/2015/08/10/college-compact/

If you have student debt, you will be able to refinance your loans at current rates, with an estimated 25 million borrowers receiving debt relief. Typical borrowers could save $2,000 over the life of their loans.

Hillary just bought my vote. This will save my wife and I $5K to 10K / yr. The fed gov subsidizes the shit out of house refis, and then provides a tax deduction on interest. They inexplicably won't do the same for student loans, which is odd considering an education is a much more noble way to spend money than outbidding someone else for a spot and throwing up an over-sized crap-shack. If the republicans would offer any type of solution, they could play ball. Of course, when it comes to the general election, the anti-Hillary option will be a train-wreck for all sorts of other reasons. So, she would likely be the best option anyway.

CaptainShuddup says

Liberals don't have solutions

Ds have imperfect solutions, which are necessarily crappy compromises with obstructionist toady Rs. Take Obamacare as an instance. It has lowered medical costs and hugely increased the rate of insured people. So, it was a solution that solved some problems with our shitty health-care industry. But, it was a crappy compromise, and inferior to a single payer system. We got it, b/c Obama ran to the right of Clinton (who favored a single payer system), and worked with the obstructionist Rs enough to get something to pass. The Rs of course wanted something private (because public is always inferior), and they wanted to appease their insurance industry buddies.

tatupu70 says

I want to create more schools/programs so there is competition for students and tuition goes down.

There isn't any lack of schools to go to. The competition is for the bill of goods called the good schools. The education industry has sold this sad lie to virtually every parent and high school educator and apparently to you. The education industry has built these gold plated education verseille palaces to sell themselves as a "good school". These edifices to ego can't be undone so the only option is to charge huge amounts of money to support them. Yes student loans and grants are the problem. Tuitions have gone up in lockstep with the rise in federal aid for 35 years. Coincidence, I think not.

There are plenty of options if you don't want to rack up huge loans. Community colleges will get you half way home on the cheap, especially if you live with mommy and daddy. But who wants to admit little johnny is in community college instead of harvard. Bill of goods sold.

You might have to move somewhere and work for a year to establish residency, but there are schools with good reputations that are less than 5k a year or roughly 400 a month. You can still get in state tuition at my alma matter University of Texas Pan Am for 6k a year. Plus living in the Rio Grande valley is dirt cheap. Anyone that can't put aside 400-500 a month isn't really trying very hard. You can do military service. You can do ROTC. You can do public service. You can go overseas, germany has free tuition. Spain, france, and italy is little as 500 a year. I knew someone who at 16 took college courses on an exchange (living with relatives) in europe, stayed for 2 years and transferred back to the US as a junior at 18 into a really high end school on a scholarship because they spoke 3 languages fluently. Never got a high school diploma, just a ged. There are lots of ways to skin a cat.

The whole thing is a gigantic scam that virtually every parent has bought into hook, line, and sinker marching like lemmings through the process without thinking at all. It can't be fixed either. There is far too much money and ego involved for that to happen.

Call it Crazy says

There you have it folks... This is why this guy makes it to the top of Patnet's idiot lists..

He doesn't know the difference between COST and PAY!!

You've really gone off the deep end this time CIC.

bob2356 says

The education industry has sold this sad lie to virtually every parent and high school educator and apparently to you

Nobody has sold anything to me. You didn't see me making an appeal to authority or quoting any supposed expert. I'm just going by data. Cost of secondary education is rising at a rate much higher than inflation. So, supply is not keeping up with demand. bob2356 says

Yes student loans and grants are the problem. Tuitions have gone up in lockstep with the rise in federal aid for 35 years. Coincidence, I think not.

Of course it's not a coincidence. Student loans allow people who couldn't afford to go otherwise, get to University. With no student loans, demand would be lower and prices would follow. The question is why hasn't supply gone up as tuition has risen?? If there was competition among schools for students, tuition wouldn't be rising.

Call it Crazy says

Tat, You are such a fucking idiot!

CIC--you really should know when to shut the fuck up. This conversation has been way over your head for probably the last 25 posts. You clearly don't understand basic economics or why federal aid results in higher prices. Why don't you go post some more Republican polling data.

Call it Crazy says

Wait, you've been telling us all along that higher prices were caused by higher demand by students and lack of available colleges and we needed more built....

Why the flip-flop on what causes higher prices??

If he keeps this up he will have to change his name to Krugman.

Call it Crazy says

Wait, you've been telling us all along that higher prices were caused by higher demand by students and lack of available colleges and we needed more built....

Why the flip-flop on what causes higher prices??

You're such a fucking idiot, you don't remember what you previously posted!

You are the most clueless poster on here. Take a step back and think about it for a second. What does all this government loan money going to lower income families that couldn't afford college do? It allows people who couldn't go to school, to now be able to attend. Are you starting to get it?

No? When you have more people wanting and able to buy a service, that is increased demand! Is it starting to sink in now?

tatupu70 says

You are the most clueless poster on here. Take a step back and think about it for a second. What does all this government loan money going to lower income families that couldn't afford college do? It allows people who couldn't go to school, to now be able to attend. Are you starting to get it?

Yea, sure right. That's why the ivies and potted ivies are 2000 per credit and many state schools are 500 per credit because all the poor people who couldn't afford college can now afford to go there instead of a 50 dollar a credit community college or a 150 dollar a credit 4 year school like utpa. It's the same product. The difference in price is image and marketing, not quality. The price demand is about status, not not ability to attend.

Bill of goods sold. Want to buy swamp land in florida? I'll sell it really cheap.

Call it Crazy says

Well, not everybody.... You and Tat are excluded from that list...

This makes no sense. It was a logical stretch even for you.

Tat has it partially right, but the biggest reason is free money and the lack of jobs for uneducated. The choice is hard for an 18 yr old. The best value surely seems to be a 2 yr community college with a transfer to a regular school in Junior year. But that takes a high level of maturity.

YesYNot says

Tat has it partially right, but the biggest reason is free money and the lack of jobs for uneducated. The choice is hard for an 18 yr old. The best value surely seems to be a 2 yr community college with a transfer to a regular school in Junior year. But that takes a high level of maturity.

That's what high school guidance counselors are paid to do, guide students to the best option for them. Except high schools are all caught in the ego trip of having their kids graduate and go to "good schools". When was the last time you saw a high school bragging about how many kids went to community college?

The best value is going to school in germany for free. Even better degrees in europe are 3 years not 4. The rest of the world doesn't believe in this wasting a year core curriculum well rounded student bullshit. Everyone else thinks if students want to learn about rocks for jocks or jacking off in the middle ages they an do it on their own time, not waste expensive education resources.

bob2356 says

The best value is going to school in germany for free.

Is this practical for a kid from the US? It sounds too good to be true. How would a kid go about doing this? Do they need to know German? Do they just apply? Is it as easy to get in as it is for Germans (I understand that it is not easy for Germans either), or is this for the top 0.5% of the population?

bob2356 says

That's what high school guidance counselors are paid to do, guide students to the best option for them.

I'd agree with this. Guidance counselors are probably not doing a good job here. It would be interesting to know, though, if kids that go to CC for two years are very likely to graduate from a 4 yr college (if that was their intent). I think it takes some serious maturity beyond getting the seed planted by a counselor.

lostand confused says

Clinton to propose $350 billion college affordability plan.

What a unique campaign strategy. Promising free stuff to the masses! Next will be tax reform. These are some really out of the box thinkers.

bob2356 says

When was the last time you saw a high school bragging about how many kids went to community college?

Or how many went to a vocational school.

Mom, Dad, guest what? I got accepted at X university. They are going to allow you to give them 40K a year so I can party with the popular kids. Isn't that great?

YesYNot says

Is this practical for a kid from the US? It sounds too good to be true. How would a kid go about doing this? Do they need to know German? Do they just apply? Is it as easy to get in as it is for Germans (I understand that it is not easy for Germans either), or is this for the top 0.5% of the population?

It's very practical. My son is probably going there for university in a few years (I'm pushing hard for spain, spanish would open up more opportunities than german and he's already studied spanish). He sure as hell isn't going to college in the US, even we are still living in the states then. Many courses are taught in english, but that would negate one of the biggest advantages of going overseas in the first place, becoming fluent in another language. I've hosted a lot of germans, mostly college students, over the years and talked about the university system with them extensively. None have said getting into a university is hard. Getting into highly competative programs like medicine (it's a 6 year combined college/medical school program) is hard, but that's everywhere. Universities that I've seen in europe are nothing like universities in the US. Basically big buildings with classrooms. No dorms, no sports stadiums, no student union, etc., etc.. You go to class and leave. If you really want some information this is a start. https://www.daad.de/deutschland/nach-deutschland/en/