patrick.net

marcus says

SAy I move to Georgia 10 years from now. If I see someone with a Confederate flag sticker on their bumper, I'm not going to assume they are cool, and not a racist. I'm also not going to assume they are a racist asshole. I'm not going to judge them at all based just on that.

Wow Marcus, most people on the left tend to scream that confederate flag is racist and any white person carrying it must be viciously condemned and burned at the stake. Consider Dan as an example. You are starting to sound like a moderate here.

FortWayne says

Wow Marcus, most people on the left tend to scream that confederate flag is racist and any white person carrying it must be viciously condemned and burned at the stake. Consider Dan as an example.

1. The flag southerners fly is NOT the Confederate flag. We already went over this, you dumb ass. It's the Confederate battle flag. It's the Confederate counterpart to this flag:

2. No one flew the Confederate navy jack after the Civil War until, in the 1950s, the KKK adopted it as a symbol of fighting the race war. If the KKK didn't adopt the flag as their symbol, no one would have flown it for the past 150 years! So yes, people flying that flag today are racists supporting the KKK and race wars, plain and simple.

3. If you're so ignorant about the Confederate battle flag and it's association with the KKK and you still fly it, you should be condemned for your stupidity and ignorance. If you're not ignorant of those facts and you still fly it, you should be condemned for supporting the most significant TERRORIST organization in American history. Heck, either way, your supporting terrorism and you should be condemned.

4. I never said anything remotely like burning anyone at the stake. In fact, I've gone on the record saying people have the right to
- fly the Confederate battle flag
- fly the ISIS flag
- and burn the American flag
without any fear of reprisal from the government. That's what liberals believe, you dumb ass.

However, we also have the right to call you on your racist bullshit and stupidity if you do so.

So once again Fort Wayne has to lie about everything. Hey Fort Wayne, are you going to run away and be silent like you always do when I call you on your bullshit or are you going to try to defend your foolish position for the first time? I guess Fort Wayne's colors do run.

marcus says

tatupu70 says

The Confederacy stood for slavery. Honoring it is honoring slavery as an institution.

Why ? Because you say so ?

What else could it stand for? It was formed to preserve the institution of slavery. Period.

tatupu70 says

What else could it stand for? It was formed to preserve the institution of slavery. Period.

War wasn't fought over slavery. Slavery wasn't abolished when the war began just FYI. Please don't take those cute hollywood movies and dumbed down public education for reality.

The difference in Wayne and Dan is Dan and his ilk would truly mis those people in those pictures if they weren't around.
Ever notice those pics usualy show about 4 or 5 nuts in a monkey suit. Where's the huge KKK rally? Were's the KKK uprising rallys in other cities around America?
Where's the public Tweets to call for violence? Oh wait I'm thinking about the Liberal issues matters movement.

Dan himself would wear that monkey suit and probably does every day, before he would dare let them drift off into a closed chapter.
How many holes did you cut in the eye's Dan? How many eyes does prick like you have anyway?

FortWayne says

War wasn't fought over slavery. Slavery wasn't abolished when the war began just FYI. Please don't take those cute hollywood movies and dumbed down public education for reality.

You're kidding, right? The South seceded because of slavery. It was about whether new states entering the Union would be slave holding or non-slave holding. Learn a little bit of history.

tatupu70 says

You're kidding, right? The South seceded because of slavery. It was about whether new states entering the Union would be slave holding or non-slave holding. Learn a little bit of history.

I know my history very well, it was fought over states rights. Was slavery part of it? Sure, but that wasn't everything.

FortWayne says

I know my history very well, it was fought over states rights. Was slavery part of it? Sure, but that wasn't everything.

OK great--please list the other rights that the Southern states were fighting over.

Oh there were many, just look at "Article of Secession". Each state issued their own and each one had their reasons.

FortWayne says

Politicians will never like voter ID laws. Because those prevent all sort of voter fraud, you can't just stuff a ballot box with random names anymore.

Amazing, you really and truly don't have a clue how the voting system in your country works. Maybe you should get involved in your county elections board and actually learn something about how the process works rather than continually wallowing in ignorance. Na, ignorance is bliss.

Marcus--

I don't understand why you are complicating this discussion. It is important that the Civil War was fought over slavery because the flag in question is the symbol of a group of people fighting to keep slavery legal. For you not to see how that is offensive is hard for me to believe. It really is analogous to Germans honoring the swastika out of German Pride. Hopefully you can see how that would be offensive.

I'm not even going to address your other nonsense about emotional reasoning. Or your continued name calling. I thought you wanted to have an adult conversation?

Do you always get so hung up on one sentence that you can't even take a full paragraph of thought into consideration.

Read the whole thing first. You're hung up on the first two sentences, I removed them for you.

marcus says

All that back and forth between on this subject wasn't about what the huge war fought over the confederate states seceding stood for 150 years ago.. What it stands for now in the 21st century is a bloody huge war over the independence of the confederate states 150 years ago. THe slavery issue that precipitated it, is an issue that has long since been resolved and according to many historians it would clearly have been resolved before 1890, even if the confederate states had been allowed to secede.

Even you would hopefully acknowledge that nobody is for reinstating slavery now. And keep in mind that 75% of white folks in the south say (and believe) that remembering the confederacy, or honoring it isn't about remembering or honoring slavery.

DO I need to make this more bold for you ? " stood for 150 years ago."

I'm not making it complicated. I've been simplifying it for you repeatedly. If nobody thinks slavery is good now or that we should have slavery now, what does "honoring slavery" that you conflate with honoring the confederacy even mean ? Can you answer that simple question ?

You have this feeling. I get it. And to you that's an argument. I'm sorry but I don't buy it. Read the article about how messed up a lot of college students are today because of the same kind of emotional reasoning you're using. Even if we continue to disagree, I'm fine, I made my best effort to convince you. Some things are ultimately subjective on some level. I don't think this is. But even the question implies subjectivity.

What is the question ? Is it this ? Should I negatively judge a person (or judge them to be racist) who in his private world likes the confederate flag and believes it's not about honoring slavery ?

Do I need to judge this person harshly ? DO I need to convince him that the strong emotions used as a substitute for logic these days dictate that he's wrong ? Do I need to tell him that he's wrong, and that he doesn't know what he believes, and that he's being a racist even if he doesn't believe he is ? Wtf are you even arguing ?

Yes, it was 150 years ago. I don't see how that matters. Age hasn't diminished the meaning or connotation of the flag.

I disagree that nobody thinks slavery is good now. I think racism still exists today in many, many parts of the US.

marcus says

honoring slavery" that you conflate with honoring the confederacy even mean ? Can you answer that simple question ?

It means that the Confederacy was formed for the express reason of keeping the institution of slavery. To honor it is almost by definition, honoring slavery.

marcus says

You have this feeling. I get it

Clearly you don't get it. My postings aren't feelings--it is logic. Very simple, actually. The Confederacy was about keeping slavery legal. How can you disagree with what the Confederacy stood for but still honor its flag?

marcus says

Should I negatively judge a person who in his private world likes the confederate flag and believes it's not about honoring slavery ?

That's up to you. But, I would negatively judge a person that likes the confederate flag because either he is ignorant of what it stands for (likely) or he shares the beliefs of that time.

marcus says

Do I need to judge this person harshly ? DO I need to convince him that the strong emotions used as a substitute for logic these days dictate that he's wrong ? Do I need to tell him that he's wrong, and that he doesn't know what he believes, and that he's being a racist even if he doesn't believe he is ? Wtf are you even arguing ?

Again-it's up to you. I can't tell you how to live your life. I prefer to use logic like I have been on this thread. I'll say it once more you. The Confederacy was formed to keep slavery. Its existence was tied to slavery. The flag, therefore, represents slavery and desire to keep it legal. It is a symbol of slavery. To honor it is to honor the symbol of slavery. It's really not that complicated.

Burns defines magnification as “exaggerat[ing] the importance of things,” and Leahy, Holland, and McGinn define labeling as “assign[ing] global negative traits to yourself and others.” The recent collegiate trend of uncovering allegedly racist, sexist, classist, or otherwise discriminatory microaggressions doesn’t incidentally teach students to focus on small or accidental slights. Its purpose is to get students to focus on them and then relabel the people who have made such remarks as aggressors.

Again, this is a fascinating article and I highly recommend it (5:1 odds say Tat doesn't read it).

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/

lol--so you see the Confederate flag as a microaggression?

tatupu70 says

lol--so you see the Confederate flag as a microaggression?

That was pretty funny.

The Civil War was fought over slavery, not state's rights (Except to own slaves or get out of the majoritarian consensus to have a tariff) or tariffs or whatever bullshit apologists come up with.

The best selling book in the Antiebellum South wasn't "The Tariff is a Negative Evil" but "Slavery is a Positive Good"

Nobody ever mentions the South already had special privileges, like being able to count 3/5th of every slave as a person for congressional seats.

FortWayne says

War wasn't fought over slavery.

The hell it wasn't. You know rewriting your country's history is the most unpatriotic thing you can do. You are effectively declaring that you are SO ASHAMED of your country's history that you have to lie about it.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/G_NTd1PWzms

So, Fort Wayne, do you want to disparage a decorated colonel and head of the history department in West Point Academy? Yes, that West Point Academy. Are you saying that West Point if full of liars?

Fort Wayne, when you deny that the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery, you piss on the graves of every U.S. soldier who died in the Civil War.

People who support the Confederacy in any way, including flying the Confederate battle flag, are supporting terrorists. The Confederacy existed solely to preserve slavery, and those who fly those traitors' battle flag are supporting those traitors and terrorists.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/LM5CTsNT3l0