patrick.net

You Bet

Why look at evidence that contradicts your political agenda?

Dan8267 says

Why look at evidence that contradicts your political agenda?

Projecting...

indigenous says

Projecting...

No, you are deflecting.

Am not

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

Dan, I read something recently in commercial media, and I wonder if you might shed some light on the part I've put in bold below:

"A new map from Climate Central shows how the water will flow into hundreds of US cities under the best and worst global warming scenarios. It uses data from an accompanying study, published today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, that links CO2 to sea level rise to the topographic contours of the coastal US.

A lot of this inundation is already on the books. Called locked in rise, it comes from energy banked in atmospheric CO2. Carbon molecules will eventually release that energy as heat, which will raise the global mean temperature. Seasons will cycle, years will pass, and weather patterns will fluctuate. And after some time—could be decades, could be centuries—the atmosphere will settle its thermodynamic debt, and a bunch of ice will melt.
***
(Disclosure: I was a Climate Central data visualization intern for a few months in 2013)."

The part in bold seems to suggest that it's "in the air", so to speak. It made no sense to me, but then I lack the experience of working for "Climate Central," so Wired isn't paying me to write on the subject.

The wording is a bit ambiguous. What I think the quote means is that thermal energy from sunlight is trapped by CO2 gas that's in the atmosphere, but the heat itself probably gets mostly stored in the ocean as higher water temperature. Water has a large specific heat, which means that it is a high-capacity thermal battery capable of storing lots of heat per degree temperature rise.

Again, the wording itself is a bit weird. Taken at face value it sounds like the author is stating that energy from the sun is being stored as carbon dioxide, i.e. the energy from the sunlight is creating carbon dioxide and storing the energy in chemical bonds. This, of course, would be wrong, so I think the author just misworded what he or she was trying to say. Creating carbon dioxide from carbon and oxygen gas releases not traps energy. That's why we burn fossil fuels.

I bet if they would just show cartoons about global warming at the UN then they could get more people on board.
They just might get that hoakey idea to take off.

Tenpoundbass says

I bet if they would just show cartoons about global warming at the UN then they could get more people on board.

And you would lose that bet. Your idea of what actually happens in the real world is ridiculously delusional and insane. That explains why you are a climate change denier.

90% of the civilized world uses YouTube. Tell me, what is so unintelligent about the following YouTube video, you dumb ass?

https://www.UkLkiXiOCWU

If you find videos like the ones I post to be intellectually lacking, it's because you're such a dumb ass you don't understand them. Intelligence subjects seem nonsensical to ignorant and dumb people like you.

Dan8267 says

I think the author just misworded what he or she was trying to say.

Thanks - that's what I thought also. It reminded me of Penn & Teller reporting on "environmental hysteria," where some people on each side are merely agreeing to agree (and agreeing to believe) and nobody within their side questions them for fear of seeming a traitor to the cause. It seems to be a sectarian dynamic. On a related point, I noted that my question and your answer both got Disliked, as did my separate thread on methane. As with most partisan/sectarian "debates," it seems like probably 80% of the population want to belong to one "team" or the oher, rather than analyzing the specific issues involved.

Ironman says

I find YOU intellectually lacking,

That's no surprise. Your feeble mind is incapable of understanding anything I post. Being arrogant about your intellect doesn't make you smart. Let's face it. Anyone who actually disbelieves man-made climate change today is a complete moron who warrants no respect or consideration.

https://www.Otm4RusESNU

curious2 says

some people on each side are merely agreeing to agree (and agreeing to believe) and nobody within their side questions them for fear of seeming a traitor to the cause

CIC is a perfect example of this.

I personally believe strongly in the scientific method, transparency, and honesty. There is no point in being "right for the wrong reason" or in "winning" an argument by convincing people of a falsehood. Any political, social, scientific, or cultural position worth defending must, by definition, be defensible. Any idea worth holding should be justifiable without even attempting to use deception or misinformation. This is the exact opposite philosophy of conservatives who strongly believe that the ends always justify the means and that deception is a valid tool to get your way. This fundamental disagreement in philosophy is why liberals hate conservatives and conservatives hate liberals. They are mutually exclusive world views.

I can be convinced of anything that is correct. If the universe was created by a giant ejaculating smurf and the evidence demonstrates this, then I'll accept that. As a skeptic, I demand to be convinced. The closed minded, whether by religion or politics, refuse to be convinced regardless of any evidence.

There is no way CIC will ever accept man-made climate change because he does not want to. Whether or not it's true or greatly harmful to the world is irrelevant. CIC perceives he will be wealthier if polluters are allowed to pollute and damn be anyone else, so whether or not climate change is real and man-made is irrelevant. It must be denied because he thinks he's better off if there are no laws restricting pollution. The fact that he's wrong even about that does not matter because he's too stupid to understand that he, his children, and all his descendants are far worse off both economically and in terms of health and survivability because of pollution.

So there is no point in trying to convincing scumbags like CIC that they are wrong. The only point to responding to their deceitful and factually incorrect posts is to demonstrate how wrong they are to others so that these selfish scumbags don't harm our families.

I'd be happy as a claim if climate change were not happening. I don't want to believe in climate change or the disastrous effects of it any more than I want to believe in war, murder, rape, or terrorism. But pretending that climate change isn't happening makes exactly as much sense as pretending that terrorism does not exist and for the exact same reasons. If you don't want to get hit by that train, you have to accept that it exists, it is headed for you, and that if you don't move you're going to get squished.

There is no reason to lie about climate change in any form. If the myriad of independent lines of evidence all confirming man-made climate change do not convince someone of reality, then nothing will. The solution is not to convince everyone, but to remove those who deny climate change from power so that everyone else can minimize the impacts and deal with the consequences as best as we can. Averting climate change is already too late.

And ultimately all misinformation is exposed in the Information Age. So while using misinformation to start unjust wars like Bush did will sometimes work, there is no long-term problem that can be solved or aided by misinformation. Long-term problems require long-term solutions, and solutions can only be accepted by the public for long periods if the solutions are shown to be honest and correct. Hence, no good solution benefits from misinformation.

For those of us in Florida, climate change, and particularly the effect of rising sea-levels, is something we have to deal with already. Various parts of A1A, the major north-south road that runs along the beach, are routinely flooded during high ties. This is something that never use to happen. Now it is the norm. Rising sea-level threatens literally billions of dollars of real-estate in Florida. It's not an academic issue. Climate change is terrible for the economy and our financial well-being. Even ignoring the deaths caused by wars, pollutions, rising mosquito lines, famines, etc., even completely not giving a crap about human life and only caring about money, people should care deeply about climate change. The financial cost of dealing with climate change is far greater than the cost of avoiding climate change would have been or the cost of mitigating it. And the financial cost of not dealing with climate change will be astronomically higher.

Climate change denying fools believe that these costs will be incurred by other people; that they will be safe from them. They are wrong. Their taxes will go up. The prices of the necessities and the luxuries they buy will go up. The cost of wars will go up. The cost of health care will go up. The economic opportunities that a healthy ecosystem provide will be lost. These fools are short-sighted and so they grossly underestimate the costs that they personally will incur because of climate change while grossly overestimating the wealth they will siphon by allowing pollution. It's being penny wise and pound foolish.

It's a $500K a year hot air.

Dan8267 says

For those of us in Florida, climate change, and particularly the effect of rising sea-levels, is something we have to deal with already. Various parts of A1A, the major north-south road that runs along the beach, are routinely flooded during high ties

What they are not telling you that for the last 40 years the coast of South Florida has been dredged, and then you assholes need a good lesson in hydro dynamics and how it affects shore lines.

Tenpoundbass says

What they are not telling you that for the last 40 years the coast of South Florida has been dredged, and then you assholes need a good lesson in hydro dynamics and how it affects shore lines.

You are an idiot, and you remain so because you refuse to learn anything from evidence.

Rising Sea Levels Are Already Making Miami’s Floods Worse

You don’t have to look 85 years into the future to see what a sinking world looks like—you only need to look as far as Miami.

Climate scientists have been warning the world about sea level rise for years, pleading with governments to cut back on carbon lest all our coastal cities go the way of Venice.

But the flooding is already happening in Florida.

Sea level rise is accelerating—perhaps faster than the IPCC has projected.

Based on what scientists can glean from sea level data from the past 20,000 years, McNoldy estimates that the world could still have up to 100 feet of sea level rise to go. He believes even if humans were to slow down or stop the man-made factors contributing to climate change, “we’re already pretty well committed to significant sea level rise. We would be more prudent to consider how to adapt to those conditions.”

And if Wired Magazine isn't a good enough source for you, there are those hippie pussies at the Department of Homeland Security, you know that liberal bastion who say The southern coast of Florida is vulnerable to the effects of sea level rise and sections of Alton Road in South Beach may be Ground Zero.

Alton Road is a few blocks west of the Atlantic Ocean, and is Miami Beach’s lowest point, at 2.8 feet above sea level. Trouble is, as a result of sea level rise, inundation tide now routinely reaches 3.4 feet above sea level. Geologist have long warned of the impact sea level rise would have on Florida’s coastal infrastructure, and they view Alto Road as Ground Zero, saying that at some point in the near future, water from flooding will not recede.

So fuck you and your lies, Tenpoundbass. There are 20 million Americans in Florida who are personally and deeply effected by climate change in general and rising sea-levels in particular. This affects our money, so fuck you. The government should seize all assets of climate change deniers like you and use them to compensate all non-deniers who are financially harmed by climate change. That will get you to stop lying real quick.

Is the sea level rising or is Florida sinking?
Why isn't every coast line in America flooding?

Look don't tell me, I've been here since 1984 every 5 years until recently they would restart a huge dredging project, to replenish the beach.

By scooping out a huge void in the Ocean seabed to get sand then dump it, not always in the same place they took it from.
The dredging barges would be off the coast of Ft Lauderdale Beach and Hollywood beach to fill in Boca or Miami coastlines.
Now as result water is creeping in on Ft Lauderdale A1A and Hollywood boardwalk, because thanks to the dredging all of the sand on our beaches have now seeped into the sea, and filled in the huge void the dredging left.

As I said you need to study hydrodynamics, water is never one level along the coast then higher or lower several miles away.
It's the beaches are eroded not the water is rising.

Dan8267 says

3.4 feet above sea level.

If that were so I would have water in my backyard some 3/4 of a mile away from beach.

Florida is Flat after all. And if I dig about 3.4 feet in my back yard, I'll hit water.

Tenpoundbass says

Is the sea level rising or is Florida sinking?

Sea levels are rising. This is an empirical fact. Denying it is like denying that rain ever falls from the sky or that it gets darker at night.

Tenpoundbass says

Why isn't every coast line in America flooding?

The altitudes of coastal cities vary. Flat land barely above sea-level is the most endangered. This is common sense.

Already islands have already been lost to rising sea-levels.

Tuvalu has lost four islands since 2000. Islets have slipped beneath the waves in the Marshall Islands and Papua New Guinea. And in Palau, some houses — still occupied — flood daily.

Of course this evidence won't convince you. None will because you don't give a shit about rising sea-levels or the people affected by it. You only give a damn about your own self and you're so fucking stupid you don't even realize that climate change will cost you money personally. So you will continue denying climate change and supporting greedy politicians who oppose legislation to mitigate and deal with climate change. This will cost you even more money, but as your hemorrhaging this cash, you'll be too stupid to realize that you made yourself poorer because you are paying for the effects of climate change through taxes and lost economic opportunity, and you'll probably blame Obama as you do for everything.

Unfortunately, your stupidity and lack of a moral backbone actually affects the rest of the world. You are one of the people who leaves the world a worst place than you found it, and the world would be better off if you had never even existed. That is your legacy.

Ironman says

Here's one

So you're saying that if there is anything frivolous on YouTube then everything on YouTube is frivolous. Replace YouTube with the Internet and maybe a dumb ass like you can realize why that's batshit crazy.

Ironman says

You prove that point

Honey, we all know you hate people who make you look like the morally bankrupt idiot your are. Get over it.

Ironman says

It's a good thing you rent and don't own a house.

The very concept of giving a shit about something that affects 7 billion people must be alien to you.

The only useful purpose you serve is demonstrating that conservatives are stupid and evil. The only good your posts do is convincing future generations not to become the village idiot.

Dan8267 says

Already islands have already been lost to rising sea-levels.

Islands pop up, then some just petter out and sink back into the sea.
Atlantis probably was a real place. It just grew more fantastical and the people's knowledge and abilities grew out of legend. But plenty of islands have been lost to time.
I bet Atlantis went slowly like this as well. And it wasn't the catostrophic event where it just fell into the ocean in one fell swoop.

Dan8267 says

Tuvalu has lost four islands since 2000. Islets have slipped beneath the waves in the Marshall Islands and Papua New Guinea. And in Palau, some houses — still occupied — flood daily.

Again it's not like these places sit lower than anywhere else on Earth, and the water is only higher there.
If any island was lost due to rising Oceans the Bahamas and much of the Carribean would all be under water now, and only the mountain regions would still be up.
Many of the Florida Keys would also be under water. US1 is the highest gradient of land on average in the Keys.

Here maybe these assholes will back my story up.
http://news.discovery.com/earth/oceans/florida-beaches-are-running-out-of-sand-130816.htm

Tenpoundbass says

Islands pop up, then some just petter out and sink back into the sea.

No, that's not how physics works. Your ignorance and delusion knows no bounds.

Tenpoundbass says

Here maybe these assholes will back my story up.

No they don't. Your reading comprehension skills are dismal. By the way, how long did you look for an article to cherry pick anyway?

The article you reference says nothing about rising sea-levels and only mentions climate change in "we have a proclivity for storm-prone coastlines that are increasingly under threat from erosion and climate change". As such it has nothing to do with this discussion.

If you are trying to make the asinine statement "erosion threatens beaches therefore there are no rising sea-levels" then you are even stupider than I thought. Erosion would not cause concrete roads to flood or storm drains to overflow and start spewing sea-water onto the streets.

Are you really this stupid or are you just pretending to be a retard?

Dan8267 says

Are you really this stupid or are you just pretending to be a retard?

Is it... Is it... Is it?

The article says Florida is running out of beach sand. Not the ocean is rising.

Tenpoundbass says

The article says Florida is running out of beach sand. Not the ocean is rising.

So you really are retarded. The existence of erosion does not disprove rising sea-levels. They are not mutually exclusive. And erosion does not explain A1A being flooded.

I swear your mother must have dropped you on your head a few dozen times when you were young. Or maybe your undeveloped brain is the result of generations of incestuous relations.

No you're the retard the sea level is the exact same now as it was when I first looked at Hollywood Beach even if the coast line is moving. The broadwalk continues to be the same level as always.
You Political Scientists keep using extreme lunar events to claim the ocean is rising. Well if it was rising, then why didn't the 2013 level that Tropical storm brought in when it erroded the shoreline. It stayed around for weeks. Now the Sea level is back where it has always been.

Tenpoundbass says

Now the Sea level is back where it has always been.

My god, you are so fucking stupid. Did you give yourself a lobotomy via an enema?

See levels have already risen 20 cm since 1880, and the rise has mostly been in the latest couple of decades. Sea levels are increasing at a faster rate today than over the last century and is continuing to accelerate.
https://www.dBs_K59K6GY

By lying to people you are demonstrating that you think they are as stupid as you are and that you do not give a shit about their lives or the lives of their families. This is why it is only proper that they start despising you and all conservatives. Such immoral behavior, placing the lives and well-being of billions at risk, should be intolerable for society.

Dan8267 says

By lying to people you are demonstrating that you think they are as stupid as you are and that you do not give a shit about their lives or the lives of their families.

They'll manage Dan, they'll manage.

Cherry Picking? You are so full of shit.

Scientific organizations that have published papers stating man-made climate change is real and dangerous:
American Association for the Advancement of Science
American Astronomical Society
American Chemical Society
American Geophysical Union
American Institute of Physics
American Meteorological Society
American Physical Society
Australian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society
Australian Bureau of Meteorology and the CSIRO
British Antarctic Survey
Canadian Foundation for Climate and Atmospheric Sciences
Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society
Environmental Protection Agency
European Federation of Geologists
European Geosciences Union
European Physical Society
Federation of American Scientists
Federation of Australian Scientific and Technological Societies
Geological Society of America
Geological Society of Australia
Geological Society of London
International Union for Quaternary Research (INQUA)
International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics
National Center for Atmospheric Research
National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
Royal Meteorological Society
Royal Society of the UK

Hell, even the Pentagon and the Department of Homeland Security have both gone on the record stating that man-made climate change is one the primary threats to national security today, on the same level as terrorism.

Once again conservatives demonstrate that no facts, no evidence, no reality will alter the course of their policies. Yet another reason to vote them out of office this November.

Are any of those just a fraternal order of Scientist that have made it their mission to save the planet for FREE?

I bet all of them have gotten grants like this...

"Yeah uh I'd like to um apply for a grant and stuff... Well I want to research a way to statically charge the ions in the atmosphere and then use it for global realtime data teleportation. "
"Um, well uh OK... I'll tell the boys you said no. What's that... Oh well YES! Yes we will be taking atmoshperic measurements to measure Global Warming of course! OK Great I'll tell the boys to chill the bubbly!"

Tenpoundbass says

Are any of those just a fraternal order of Scientist that have made it their mission to save the planet for FREE?

When conservatives accuse scientists of falsifying evidence for money, conservatives reveal themselves as the lying sack-of-shit hypocrites they truly are. Those in favor of allowing polluters to poison your family are the ones lying to make money at your expense.

In contrast, scientists have an enormous incentive to disprove accepted theories and correct mistakes. That is exactly how Noble Prizes are won and immortality is gained. Every revolutionary idea that is proven true creates a legend that lives on forever from Newton to Einstein to Hawking.

Furthermore, it would take only whistleblower to make every one else look like a fool if there were any conspiracy, which is utterly impossible given the thousands of lines of independent evidence all making the exact same conclusion. The cornerstone of science is the repeatability of results by any one. It is ridiculous to suggest that tens of millions of scientists all around the world could even fake the massive amounts of evidence without being caught by anyone given the free flow of information and the ease of performing experiments and taking measurements. The ice core samples alone would easily reveal any deception.

The conservative lie that scientists are corrupt money grubbers is a transparent and juvenile last ditch attempt to fool the audience when it has been shown beyond any doubt, reasonable or otherwise, that all evidence supports the severity of man-made climate change and that every piece of so-called counter-evidence given by conservatives has been debunked and demonstrated to be an outright lie.

Even the writing of climate change deniers is laughably childish with baseless assertions pulled out of their asses that they cannot hope to support with any evidence. Every time a conservative makes such a bold-face lie, he is stating unequivocally that he thinks you are an idiot that he can fool. You should feel insulted as he was insulting you. You should also feel angry because he's putting your family's well-being in jeopardy for the illusion that he'll be richer at your expense.

Conservatives are the most immoral people in all of history as demonstrated time and again on this forum.

As CIC demonstrates, only feces-throwing monkeys deny climate change.

and only knuckle dragging neandertals believe that the current direction the politicization over global warming threat, or climate change beit real or otherwise.
Could possibly be altered by the rabbid Left's politicizing it and blatently using it as a sick baby in impose other failed urgument through that countries legislation.
Climate change is nothing more than a Throat Stretcher. The number 999 model. Standard Liberal issue, aisle 14 at S-Mart, any questions?

You can repeat a lie all you want, it doesn't make it the truth. When the Pentagon and the Department of Homeland Security consider climate change to be a grave threat, it's not politics. The only ones playing bullshit political games are you deniers. You can't admit the real reason you are denying climate change. It's not that you don't believe it. It's that you think you can profit from the suffering of others. You are motivated only by greed and stupidity.

That's why you can never back any of your false claims with a shred of evidence that hasn't been thoroughly debunked, and when presented with any evidence, not matter the source or the kind of evidence, you simply make baseless accusations that all evidence is forged because of a global conspiracy theory. Your more batshit crazy than even bgamall4.

Ironman says

Nobody in the "alarmists" camp are making money on Grants...

Really?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/dark-money-funds-climate-change-denial-effort/

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/feb/14/funding-climate-change-denial-thinktanks-network

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/07/04/climate-change-deniers-follow-the-money.aspx

http://www.democracynow.org/2015/2/25/climate_deniers_exposed_top_scientist_got'

Shall I continue? Follow the money, indeed.

Grants aren't salaries.

Ironman says

Absolutely continue..

Now please give us the list of scientists receiving government money and grants that AGREE with the IPCC reports. Remember, 97% of them agree, so it should be a pretty long list. You might run out of digital ink!!

After you post that you were wrong that alarmists aren't making money from denying global warming.

Besides--it's not surprising that they agree. They go where the data points.

Is it surprising that 100% of scientists receiving grant money agree that gravity exists?