patrick.net

Ironman says

Bigsby says

So like I said, your idea is to allow a bunch of pissed up young kids to carry concealed weapons. Good plan.

So what's your plan, just sit there and wait for your turn to take a bullet in the head?

Yeah, yeah, that's obviously my plan, whereas your plan is to arm every little kid with an M4. That'll make us all safer.

USA firearm homicides in 2012: 9,146. France: 35. Clearly the solution to a safer world is more guns.

Reality says

Most music festivals have armed guards nowadays already, and yes the armed guards usually are young people.

If you hate guns and self-defense so much, why don't you advocate disarming the secret service? or even disarming the police?

Yeah, which obviously translates into everyone should be allowed to carry assault rifles.

And I'm from a country where most police are unarmed. It's worked out quite well for the UK so far, and I'm more than happy for it to continue. For some peculiar reason, the abundance of guns in your country doesn't appear to actually make people safer. I wonder why that might be.

Ironman says

Reality says

You seemed to have missed the very simple fact that almost all of the mass shooting events took place where guns were banned. When the few instances where one or two concealed carry civilians were present despite the ban, the wannabe mass murders quickly killed themselves! Even in this Paris incident, the mere showing up of police being able to shoot back quickly led to the terrorists blowing themselves up instead of trying to do real battle against armed opponents.

That's a FACT that Bigs and others will NEVER admit.

Sure, sure, when the police turned up at the hotel in Mumbai, for example, the terrorists just laid down their guns and gave up.

You seriously think these people just gave up because the police arrived? Who do you think you are trying to kid? They didn't give up. They blew themselves up. They were happy to die. That's how fucked up they were. You don't really seem to have much idea of the mentality of these individuals.

mell says

The day the US and the UN say we don't care because we decided to stay out of this conflict Israel will level their surrounding threatening countries/territories because they have no other choice, being vastly outnumbered.

They are coming close to that now by lobbying the US.

mell says

Plenty of cultural groups and people receive funding and military training for various reasons at any given point in time

Examples?

indigenous says

They are coming close to that now by lobbying the US.

But isn't that the net result of an isolationist stance? They can get weapons from anybody, they have a functioning economy.

indigenous says

mell says

Plenty of cultural groups and people receive funding and military training for various reasons at any given point in time

Examples?

Just one quick one, Kurdish fighters have been armed and helped for a while now to be able to compete with their enemies. And they keep fighting their cause in their region. Very very rarely there is a protest by them in Europe about their cause and it is pretty much never violent.

Ironman says

Bigsby says

They were happy to die. That's how fucked up they were. You don't really seem to have much idea of the mentality of these individuals.

So, since these guys are "fucked up", we shouldn't do ANYTHING to help defend ourselves, just sit back unarmed and wait for the next group of "fucked up" terrorists to strike and kill hundreds of people.

Brilliant plan!!

Duh. We have a huge network of heavily funded agencies fighting them (more than likely the kind of big government agencies you lot rage against on any other topic). Handing guns to any and every kid isn't going do jack shit except make day to day life more dangerous for everyone.

ONE OF THE TERRORISTS WAS "REFUGEE" VIA GREECE

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/14/syrian-greece-refugee-paris-attacks-killers

Goodbye, Mutti!

Ironman says

Bigsby says

They were happy to die. That's how fucked up they were. You don't really seem to have much idea of the mentality of these individuals.

So, since these guys are "fucked up", we shouldn't do ANYTHING to help defend ourselves, just sit back unarmed and wait for the next group of "fucked up" terrorists to strike and kill hundreds of people.

Islam is what fucked them up to begin with. As long as we have Islam on the lose, more and more Muslim minds will get fucked up.
We need to control these countries, so we can control the Islamic preachings of hate and violence.

indigenous says

so now, what is the solution? it's starting to seem more reasonable to require everyone to carry a gun.

Quit the empire thing, i.e. quit bombing/invading middle east countries. Close down the bases in 140 some odd countries.

so you want to reward the terrorists according to how many innocent civilians they kill. good plan. that will surely stop them.

Armed citizens is a good idea. With the caveat that they know how to hit what they aim at, maybe require firearms classes, it works great in Switzerland.

we agree there. we can learn from switzerland and israel.

What can you do that would actually end this madness? Disagreeing with the Muslim religion does not do anything.

very wrong.

public (preferably polite) disagreement with islam is absolutely essential to the future of the human race. islam thrives only where it can threaten or kill anyone who publicly disagrees with it. freedom of speech is the exact opposite of islam.

with a billion loud voices saying the truth out loud about what islam actually is, no one's rights are violated, and muslims have a chance of freeing themselves from islam.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

Here is a 2 fer, quit training and financing radical Muslim groups, quite bombing innocents and creating hatred. And train the citizens on how to use guns. E.G. Switzerland and Israel.

yes, i agree with both of those.

in particular, we need to stop sending money to saudi arabia, and we need our government to clearly state out loud that:

1. saudi arabia has zero democracy
2. saudi arabia has zero freedom of speech
3. saudi arabia has zero freedom of religion

we look like weak hypocritical corrupt money-grubbing idiots by dealing with the saudis at all. which perhaps we are overall.

Ironman says

Go ask the 100 dead people in the theater how well that plan has worked!

It's worked pretty well so far considering how desperate these groups are to carry out attacks and how few have actually happened. They've certainly stopped a lot more attacks than your plan to arm kids with guns would ever prevent.

thunderlips11 says

ONE OF THE TERRORISTS WAS "REFUGEE" VIA GREECE

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/14/syrian-greece-refugee-paris-attacks-killers

How to invade Europe in three easy lessons.

Bigsby says

Sure, sure, when the police turned up at the hotel in Mumbai, for example, the terrorists just laid down their guns and gave up.

You seriously think these people just gave up because the police arrived? Who do you think you are trying to kid? They didn't give up. They blew themselves up. They were happy to die. That's how fucked up they were. You don't really seem to have much idea of the mentality of these individuals.

The ones who did Mumbai were battle-hardened veterans from the 1998 war in Kashmir mountains. The run-of-the-mill wackos are not battle hardened at all. They want to die in a blaze of "glory" or get their "72 virgins," but they usually do not want to bleed out slowly writhing in pain for hours before expiring, or even have the mental capacity to handle real combat against another group of armed people. It's not just the police that caused the wackos to give up, but they gave up and shot themselves when faced with any armed opposition!

Word is the several of the Terrorists came from Belgistan, a nascent Islamic State located on the North Sea.

http://www.france24.com/en/20151114-belgium-investigation-paris-attacks-terrorism-france-police

They're not here to integrate, but dominate. Sharia4Belgium.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZDKk15KcqNk

thunderlips11 says

ONE OF THE TERRORISTS WAS "REFUGEE" VIA GREECE

On a million refugees, there may be 10,000 ISIS 'soldiers'.
What happened in Paris is just a taste of things to come.

Ironman says

Heraclitusstudent says

On a million refugees, there may be 10,000 ISIS 'soldiers'.


What happened in Paris is just a taste of things to come.

Not to worry, the refugees we're bringing to the US are the "nice" ones!!

How many are we bringing in?

thunderlips11 says

They're not here to integrate, but dominate. Sharia4Belgium.

Again, why should we tolerate religion when religion is calling for the murder of innocents and chopping off body parts?

Why should religion be the one evil we tolerate, even revere?

Ironman says

bob2356 says

Ironman aka rambo would have most certainly jumped up with his 6 round concealed hand gun and shot it out with 4 guys with their 30 round ak 47's on full auto. He's just that kind of guy.

Yep, I am... Where you would just sit and cower like a little girl and just wait to be shot by the thugs... So feminine of you...

You would have shit in your pants then cried for mommy.

Ironman says

bob2356 says

You would have shit in your pants

You're thinking of your buddy sbh, fecal matter is his specialty!!

Yea, sure whatever you say mr. mitty.

thunderlips11 says

Pakistan ethnically cleansed non-Muslims with impunity.

Bangladesh as well

Bigsby says

Sure, sure, when the police turned up at the hotel in Mumbai

If they knew that people at the Taj were likely to be armed and be unafraid to use it against the Pakistani terrorists, they would have picked a different place to target altogether. Why should all guns be in the hands of criminals or law enforcement?

Fucked By Goats Ironman says

France has been asking for it for too long

have been oblivious about what unfettered muslim immigration can bring.

Ironman says

You do know that a 18 year old "kid" can volunteer to join the army in France and shoot automatic weapons, right?

You do know that a 18 year old "kid" can vote for President in France, right?

You do know that a 18 year old "kid" can buy alcohol in France, right?

But, in your twisted, liberal, hypocrite, double standard view, a 18 year old "kid" shouldn't be allowed to apply for a firearm permit, right??????

Does that sum up your point?

Yes, amazingly enough, I don't think that it's a good idea to allow any and every 18 year-old to carry around a concealed weapon, in this case at a rock concert where they are consuming alcohol. I know that may be weird to you, Mr Rambo, but I think you might find I'm not alone in that view.

Reality says

The ones who did Mumbai were battle-hardened veterans from the 1998 war in Kashmir mountains. The run-of-the-mill wackos are not battle hardened at all. They want to die in a blaze of "glory" or get their "72 virgins," but they usually do not want to bleed out slowly writhing in pain for hours before expiring, or even have the mental capacity to handle real combat against another group of armed people. It's not just the police that caused the wackos to give up, but they gave up and shot themselves when faced with any armed opposition!

You have no idea what they did before this carnage, and you have no idea what the circumstances were at the end. To say that they would just give up in the face of some police runs directly contrary to the fact that they were clearly willing to die, and is simply you making up a scenario to fit your argument.

MMR says

Bigsby says

Sure, sure, when the police turned up at the hotel in Mumbai

If they knew that people at the Taj were likely to be armed and be unafraid to use it against the Pakistani terrorists, they would have picked a different place to target altogether. Why should all guns be in the hands of criminals or law enforcement?

Genius. Yes, they might have picked a softer target if necessary, though it is quite clear from past history that they are also willing to attack some pretty heavily defended institutions, or do you just want to ignore those assaults for convenience sake?

Ironman says

Bigsby says

is simply you making up a scenario to fit your argument.

Ha Ha Ha... go look in the mirror...

I'm not making anything up though, am I? They blew themselves up, did they not? Therefore, they were willing to die. See how that works?

Ironman says

So, you decided to just skip over the list of adults that I pointed out who were in the theater...

So double standard of you!!

Your previous argument was that all adults should be allowed to carry concealed weapons. Now you think what? That a theatre should be allowed to have some armed guards? How many? How many would be enough? Think about the practicalities of that. You don't even have that in your gun fixated country.

Ironman says

Bigsby says

Your previous argument was that all adults should be allowed to carry concealed weapons.

Why do you spin such bullshit. My argument is that any adult who wants to carry concealed, should be able to. I never said "ALL".

What's the difference? If you say any, then it's quite possible for it to be all, certainly a good number of people YOU no doubt don't want to be able to carry guns - you know, young French Muslim male adults for starters. But hey, that's your argument, an argument sure to put every pub and club goer at ease when they know that at any minute they might spill the pint of any moronic pissed up rambo of the CiC variety and trigger a fire fight. Good plan.

Ironman says

And YOUR solution is to have ZERO concealed carry and ZERO guards because law enforcement will protect us. How naive and clueless is that?

Oh, I don't know, that's the way it has been throughout our lifetime and the vast majority of people seem to have managed to avoid a terrorist attack. You want to turn the world on its head in response to the actions of some sick minded young men. Have armed security at every single building. Allow any young adult to carry a concealed gun... Metal detectors, paranoia... airport style security at your local mall. Well done, that's precisely the reaction they want. Congratulations on bending to terrorists.

Ironman says

Talk about being a delusional and dishonest idiot... Care to point out ANYWHERE where I stated ANY of the bullshit you posted.... ANYWHERE... Talk about living in a fantasy land!!!

Go ahead, point out just one example... I'll wait...

A. You said all adults should be allowed to carry concealed weapons.
B. You said that this wouldn't have happened if this small venue had multiple armed guards. Presumably, any building that holds at least that number of people should have armed guards at the entrance - you know, places like SHOPPING MALLS. I take it then that armed guards at every entrance is fine, but metal detectors are a step too far.
C. Cafes and bars were attacked. Do you not want armed guards at those as well?

Forget about concealed carry. I want open carry! I should be able to walk around with an assault rife if I want to.

Ironman says

Bigsby says

You said all adults should be allowed to carry concealed weapons.

LIAR

I said ANY (not ALL) adults who want to carry should be able to and not have a blanket, no carry law across the country. Do you really think ALL adults even want to carry?

What you just said is precisely what I said you said - 'you said all adults SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO CARRY.' That doesn't mean they would be forced to carry, does it? I know you are trolling, but you need to try harder with your responses.

Ironman says

Bigsby says

You said that this wouldn't have happened if this small venue had multiple armed guards.

LIAR

When you said "kids" shouldn't carry, my response to you (go back and read above) that wasn't there ADULT employees or security at the theater that could carry. Are you going to try and tell me that the theater didn't have any security for a heavy metal concert.

I didn't literally mean kids, amazingly enough. 18/19/20... year olds are kids to me. And yes, I'm sure they had security, but again, amazingly enough, nearly all places except heavily protected government institutions and the like are not and cannot practically be in a position to defend against multiple attackers armed with AK-47s.

Ironman says

That's YOUR problem... You "presume" and make up lies and false statements to fit YOUR twisted narrative.

Go re-post one comment that I made in this thread where I said I wanted armed guards at EVERY location! I dare you to find one!

My twisted narrative? The one where I don't want young people armed on a night out? The one where I don't want every building to be guarded by multiple armed individuals, and presumably every park, high street, school... as well? It's not my vision that is twisted, it's yours.

Ironman says

Bigsby says

you said all adults SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO CARRY

Ironman says

I said ANY (not ALL) adults who want to carry should be able to

Do you know the difference between these two words: "Any" and "All"?

Apparently not. Perhaps then, you can clarify the difference in meaning between 'any adult should be allowed' and 'all adults should be allowed.'

Ironman says

So, it's OK to give a "kid" a rifle to defend his country, but it's NOT OK to let a "kid" defend himself or his family if he so chooses?

Do I have your double, liberal standard correct?

Last time I checked, that person had gone through extensive training and is not allowed to carry his weapons down to the pub when he is getting shit faced with his squaddie mates. Maybe it is different in the US.

Ironman says

Ironman says

Go re-post one comment that I made in this thread where I said I wanted armed guards at EVERY location! I dare you to find one!

I'm STILL waiting!!!

So you only want them at places that have already been attacked by terrorists? Good plan!!!!!

I take it that you don't know what a question mark is.
Perhaps you'd like to state where the armed guards should be then. We've already learned that you think relatively small concert venues should have them. Where else? I won't be holding my breath for your answer.

Still waiting.

And still waiting.

You're going to have to wait for a while. CIC spent his last dollar on condoms and cat food.

Thanks for the condoms, but yours are too small for me.

Or is this just your way of telling me you want to ride me bareback?

I would be flattered if he wasn't such a fat fuck loser uggo.

I'm not worry about me so much as I am about all the neighborhood pets. Last time CIC visited Florida, there was a shortage of anal lube and dog food.

Bigsby says

Genius. Yes, they might have picked a softer target if necessary

Thank you, I aspire to be as intelligent as you someday. It's a real uphill battle though. But one day, by the grace of god, I can achieve your level of British Inbred royal stock level of excellence.

What is a softer target than a 5 star hotel in India? Please explain. Each and every one of those 'softer targets' have been hit at some point in the past and will be in the future.

Bigsby says

quite clear from past history that they are also willing to attack some pretty heavily defended

Outside of New Delhi, which attacks were 'heavily defended'? Here is an INCOMPLETE list of attacks (Mostly perpetrated by muslims). Tell me what percentage happened in 'highly secure' environments.

Just because a place has a few armed individuals (Parliament building, High Court), I doubt you can call it heavily defended with islamic interlopers on staff aiding and abetting. The death rate in those settings was low because of the security and no strategic kills occurred in that environment. Not a compelling argument for there to not be more people armed in a country with a big 'muslim problem' in areas typically lacking government-sanctioned security.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_India

As stated earlier, attacks on New Delhi are a minuscule percentage of Terrorist Attacks in India and any place with jihadi intruders on staff make a place 'heavily armed' to reiterate the point, less secure

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_India

It seems to me that in your royal inbred brilliance that you are indirectly implying that they are somehow brave by attacking 'heavily guarded' government buildings. Also the kills at the parliament building totaled about 12 whereas when they attack less secure areas such as trains, the kill rate is much higher, such as the bombings in 2005, one of numerous examples.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Delhi_bombings

Wonder where the chechen assholes in Boston got the idea for pressure cooker bombs? Look no further than Mumbai 2006. Hell, the number killed or injured was almost as great as the 2008 attacks but got far less media coverage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Mumbai_train_bombings

Bigsby says

do you just want to ignore those assaults for convenience sake

That's pretty much what you've done. Specifically claim that there are a lot of assaults on secure buildings where the kill rate was very low due to security and then claim that places that don't normally have security (i.e. train stations, trains), where the majority of attacks and kills have occurred, should continue to not have security because of the possibility of collateral damage. On the other hand, it is pretty much impossible to defend oneself against suicide bombers, but that is still a relatively low percentage of the terrorist attacks perpetrated by muslims on Indian soil. They don't need to blow themselves up because they know if they kill, they will get off lightly and not even spend life in prison in most cases or be hanged. India has to tread very lightly on meting out punishment to prevent the rest of the muslim psychos from rioting and looting.

The only tough stand was during the Godhra riots. Gujarat is prone to fewer attacks than say Mumbai or South India (Hyderabad, Bangalore, Chennai)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godhra_train_burning

There is a shortage of even rent-a-cops in India who wouldn't be able to defend against a gun attack from guys wielding automatic weapons and return fire capably enough kill or maim criminals. Those scrubs couldn't hit the broad side of the sky, if push came to shove. The biggest reason why muslims can commit murders relatively unscathed in India is India's police to population ratio is one of the lowest in the world, barring the poorer African countries. There is a high deficit of personnel in intelligence gathering. The IB has barely 3,500 field officers. Terrorists have no fear of being detected, arrested or prosecuted." PR Chari, a research professor at the Institute for Peace and Conflict Studies, said "the blasts were a demonstration of their (terrorists) capabilities and a terse reminder of the state's helplessness, in reference to the blasts in 2008 in Ahmedabad killing 56 and injuring 200

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Ahmedabad_blasts

MMR says

Bigsby says

Genius. Yes, they might have picked a softer target if necessary

Thank you, I aspire to be as intelligent as you someday. It's a real uphill battle though. But one day, by the grace of god, I can achieve your level of British Inbred royal stock level of excellence.

What is a softer target than a 5 star hotel in India? Please explain. Each and every one of those 'softer targets' have been hit at some point in the past and will be in the future.

Re-read your own post. You talked about if there were armed guards... and I responded that they then might have picked a softer target. It really wasn't that difficult to follow. And hey, I never knew I was royalty. I better check on any missing inheritance.

MMR says

Outside of New Delhi, which attacks were 'heavily defended'? Here is an INCOMPLETE list of attacks (Mostly perpetrated by muslims). Tell me what percentage happened in 'highly secure' environments.

Just because a place has a few armed individuals (Parliament building, High Court), I doubt you can call it heavily defended with islamic interlopers on staff aiding and abetting. The death rate in those settings was low because of the security and no strategic kills occurred in that environment. Not a compelling argument for there to not be more people armed in a country with a big 'muslim problem' in areas typically lacking government-sanctioned security.

Any number of incidents in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Attacks in Iraq and Libya on heavily armed buildings etc. etc. My point, if you missed it, was to say that they are quite clearly not afraid to attack heavily armed installations. You see that every day in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan. Many of these individuals are simply not afraid to die, in fact they embrace it, something that you seem to be utterly ignoring in your comments about them laying down arms in the face of a few armed individuals.

MMR says

Not a compelling argument for there to not be more people armed in a country with a big 'muslim problem' in areas typically lacking government-sanctioned security.

What relevance has that to the impossibility of protecting the inordinate number of potential soft targets that any country has? You can't completely protect a country from these attacks. That is just the reality. You want to go the gung-ho rambo approach of arming every individual willing - hardly an approach to make society safer given the number of firearm murders in your country compared to Europe. Clearly it doesn't have the desired affect you think it has.

MMR says

As stated earlier, attacks on New Delhi are a minuscule percentage of Terrorist Attacks in India and any place with jihadi intruders on staff make a place 'heavily armed' to reiterate the point, less secure

So? What has that got to do with the impossibility of securing a city from attacks?

MMR says

It seems to me that in your royal inbred brilliance that you are indirectly implying that they are somehow brave by attacking 'heavily guarded' government buildings. Also the kills at the parliament building totaled about 12 whereas when they attack less secure areas such as trains, the kill rate is much higher, such as the bombings in 2005, one of numerous examples.

There you go again, royal blood in the family indeed. And I made no comment about bravery or otherwise. I was talking about willingness - they are more than willing to give up their lives. Call that sort of suicidal belief whatever you like. It makes no difference to the end result. And who's arguing that the death rate wouldn't be lower when attacking Parliament compared to any number of other possibilities? What's your point? That every cafe, McDonalds, High Street, Farmers' Market... should/could have the same level of security as a government building?

MMR says

That's pretty much what you've done. Specifically claim that there are a lot of assaults on secure buildings where the kill rate was very low due to security and then claim that places that don't normally have security (i.e. train stations, trains), where the majority of attacks and kills have occurred, should continue to not have security because of the possibility of collateral damage.

Except that's not what I argued. I said they weren't afraid to attack heavily guarded institutions (when that is their aim). That isn't their aim in Europe though, is it? Their aim (amongst many others) is to sow as much fear as they can, to increase the paranoia and to increase hostility towards the Muslim community and so aid their recruitment. Increase protection in train stations and they'll attack somewhere else. You stop this by attempting to prevent it from happening in the first place.

MMR says

There is a shortage of even rent-a-cops in India who wouldn't be able to defend against a gun attack from guys wielding automatic weapons and return fire capably enough kill or maim criminals. Those scrubs couldn't hit the broad side of the sky, if push came to shove. The biggest reason why muslims can commit murders relatively unscathed in India is India's police to population ratio is one of the lowest in the world, barring the poorer African countries. There is a high deficit of personnel in intelligence gathering. The IB has barely 3,500 field officers. Terrorists have no fear of being detected, arrested or prosecuted." PR Chari, a research professor at the Institute for Peace and Conflict Studies, said "the blasts were a demonstration of their (terrorists) capabilities and a terse reminder of the state's helplessness, in reference to the blasts in 2008 in Ahmedabad killing 56 and injuring 200

What exactly is your fixation with India? We are talking about what is happening in Europe and the fact that unlike all the rambos on this forum, I find the idea of arming any young adult with concealed weapons an utterly ludicrous response to what has happened. That and the idea of having armed security all over the place - precisely where obviously not being something the likes of CiC are willing to answer.