patrick.net

bob2356 says

The vast majority of muslims in france have been there for generations

show me a source for that. The first mosque in france was built in 1922.

anyway, it does not invalidate the point that muslim immigration introduces people who have conflicted loyalties, to say the least.

bob2356 says

France nets less than 100k immigrants a year total for everyone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_France#1974-today has the number at 229,600 for the year 2012.

bob2356 says

Muslims are between 7-10% of the population but are 60-70% of people in prison.

you're not making them look good, you know that, right?

thunderlips11 says

and the Bronx.

Fordham University, yo.

bob2356 says

Muslims are overtly and constantly discriminated against in france as well as harassed by the police.

That's a flat out lie.

I don't mean to say that lightly, but it stuns me that seemingly intelligent people can come up with stuff like this when it comes to being apologetic by any means. The majority of western European's police force is highly over-trained in racial and cultural matters and has much stricter standards than the American police to adhere to. Furthermore it is true that most post-WW2 immigrants into countries about to rebuild themselves and flourish (with the help of allies or being allies themselves) such as Germany or France have faced higher scrutiny and some unfairness especially in the beginning, but throughout the decades this has been addressed and most have assimilated so well that they cannot even be singled out anymore. Whatever unfairness might have happened to the immigrants in France, it is no different than the Italian/Spanish immigrants or early Turkish immigrants into Germany, or Polish/eastern European for that matter. And you see none of them running around decimating people. Not a single cultural/ethnic group. Fuck or take the Irish immigrants into the US. All well behaved despite being heavily discriminated against back then by today's standards.

bob2356 says

The vast majority of muslims in france have been there for generations

show me a source for that. The first mosque in france was built in 1922.

Look at you own article. The big influx was the 1940's into 1950's and even 60's. That's 3 full generations for quite a few of them.

bob2356 says

France nets less than 100k immigrants a year total for everyone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_France#1974-today has the number at 229,600 for the year 2012.

Net immigration patrick. People immigrate out also. The number is probably higher than 100k that was quite a few years ago that I looked.

bob2356 says

Muslims are between 7-10% of the population but are 60-70% of people in prison.

you're not making them look good, you know that, right?

I'm not saying they should look good. I'm saying they've been mistreated for many years and they are lashing out. I don't condone it but I understand it.

The US is not a western country, if one's viewpoint is from Japan...

Blurtman says

Western countries, particularly the U.S., are directly responsible for the violence and destruction in Iraq,

blurtmen- Muslims need no excuse. They kill each other and have for centuries. The shias and the sunnis and the rival fighting within clans-not that different from the Christians of yore-but they are still embracing their savagery. Muslim hordes invade other countries and if not strong enough take out their aggression on each other. Muslims have set off bombings in india, 9/11 here, Britain train attacks, France , Spain and countless others. The only place with more Muslim bombings-is Muslim countries themselves.

Pakistan is plagued with mass bombings ona routine basis. Turkey recently experienced a savage bombing, Iraq shias routinely are bombed by sunnis on their religious holidays while they are worshipping. Sunnis seem to be the most violent. They do not need a reason to bomb and know only one thing-fear and terror.

This is why Bush and nopw Obama cannot win in Iraq and Sadaam held power for so long. When sadaam held power there was a story of a few men from a village -just like these ones that killed the French. Guess what he did-he brought all the males from that village/town and killed them-you think there were many more suicide attempts.

Now not western and I would have a problem-but if france wipes out an entire muslim settlement from which the killers came from-they wouldn't dare try again. But that is not acceptable and so we must endure this-until we cannot.

Savages ought to be treated as savages-until they prove otherwise.

We have to fight, else I fear just like martial law in France right now, more savage attacks from the jihadis, will strip away all our freedoms and savage brutal men will take over and rule everything under the guise of protecting against these beasts. if muslims know that terrible damage will come from attacking us, they won't dare attack us.

mell says

bob2356 says

Muslims are overtly and constantly discriminated against in france as well as harassed by the police.

That's a flat out lie.

I lived there and saw it. You choose to can believe it or not. I've gone to a night club and had one of our group refused entrance because they thought he was north african, which wasn't even true. The EU Council on Human Rights issued a report last year condemning france for racism and discrimination. Was that a flat out lie also?

It's really ridiculous to be in a group of french who will harangue you as an American about how blacks are treated in America but when I ask what about the north africans in france they will say that's different and honestly believe it.

mell says

Whatever unfairness might have happened to the immigrants in France, it is no different than the Italian/Spanish immigrants or early Turkish immigrants into Germany, or Polish/eastern European for that matter. And you see none of them running around decimating people. Not a single cultural/ethnic group. Fuck or take the Irish immigrants into the US. All well behaved despite being heavily discriminated against back then by today's standards.

You don't read much history do you? The Irish immigrants well behaved? Other than riots, gangs, and organized crime you mean? That was with the irish in america being a lot better accepted than muslims in france.

Again I'm not condoning any violence, but I can understand where it comes from. The situation is france is unique and is going to get worse.

Tensions surrounding France's Muslim community have long been simmering, as George Packer, a foreign correspondent for The New Yorker who covered the Iraq war, chronicled in an August article. The article, titled "The Other France," wondered whether Paris suburbs are an "incubator for terrorism."

"France has all kinds of suburbs, but the word for them, banlieues, has become pejorative, meaning slums dominated by immigrants," Packer wrote.

"Inside the banlieues are the cités: colossal concrete housing projects built during the postwar decades, in the Brutalist style of Le Corbusier. Conceived as utopias for workers, they have become concentrations of poverty and social isolation. The cités and their occupants are the subject of anxious and angry discussion in France."

http://www.businessinsider.com/paris-attacks-why-terrorists-target-france-2015-11

bob2356 says

You don't read much history do you? The Irish immigrants well behaved? Other than riots, gangs, and organized crime you mean? That was with the irish in america being a lot better accepted than muslims in france.

Again I'm not condoning any violence, but I can understand where it comes from. The situation is france is unique and is going to get worse.

Where does Muslim violence in the rest of the world come from? Are you gonna come up with an excuse for Islamic violence in every country that is a target of suicide bombers?Africa, Asia and S America are full of poverty stricken people, but it's only the Muslims there who commit terrorism. The 911 Saudis were not discriminated or poverty stricken, yet they carried out 911.
Bob, I don't think you understand where Islamic violence comes from. It comes from the non stop hate and violence preachings by Islamic clerics.

That's because, whether you libbies like it or not, we are Exceptional.

HydroCabron says

I tend to agree with my father-in-law (ex-Wehrmacht), who said the biggest problem with Americans is that the United States has never been invaded.

WTF does this mean? You're scared of maternity wards??

HydroCabron says

your fear of women who have sex

this is news to me.

Strategist says

Where does Muslim violence in the rest of the world come from? Are you gonna come up with an excuse for Islamic violence in every country that is a target of suicide bombers?Africa, Asia and S America are full of poverty stricken people, but it's only the Muslims there who commit terrorism. The 911 Saudis were not discriminated or poverty stricken, yet they carried out 911.

Bob, I don't think you understand where Islamic violence comes from. It comes from the non stop hate and violence preachings by Islamic clerics.

I didn't offer an excuse for anything. Did you read what I wrote? I said I understand why france is having so much muslim violence. It's not the couple big terrorist incidents that have made it to the head in the sand US press and even more head in the sand american public like you. It's hundreds (probably more like thousands) of violent incidents over the last 15-20 years. There is no country outside of the active war area's in the middle east that has even a tiny fraction of muslim violence as france does.

I don't think you understand where Islamic violence come from. It's not from poverty, it's from money. Specifically Saudi money. Even more specifically Saudi sunni wahhabism money. If you don't know how that works then I can't begin to explain it to you.

Only the muslims commit terrorism? You call yourself strategist? Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were muslim? News to me. Never heard of a place called Ireland-IRA/UDA? Columbia FARC? Greece EA? Spain ETA? Peru Shining Path? Phillipenes NPA? Japan Aum Shinrikyo? Ugunda LRA? ,How about the Ku Klux Klan, Medellin Drug Cartel, Anti-Castro Group, Mormon extremists, Vietnamese Organization to Exterminate Communists and Restore the Nation, Jewish Defense League, May 19 Communist Order, Chicano Liberation Front, Jewish Armed Resistance, American Indian Movement, Gay Liberation Front, Aryan Nation, Jewish Action Movement, National Front for the Liberation of Cuba, Fourth Reich Skinheads Tamil TIgers, Red Army Faction/Baader-Meinhof Group. There are a lot more.

The FBI says in the last 25 years 6% of terrorist attacks in the US have been by muslims. The have actually been more jewish terrorist attacks in the us than muslim. Go look up something called the START Global Terrorism Database, it's public.

Muslim terrorists are the only ones that are well funded enough to pull off big attacks that make international news is the difference. It's not muslim violence or muslim terrorism. It's a war but not a war with islam. The war is with our "allies" Saudi Arabia the fundamentalist tiny little sect of of islam xenophobic fanatics who are funding and executing it world wide. Think all of islam is violent terrorists? Show me the shia terrorist attacks or even any sunni terrorist attacks not associated with Saudi sponsored clerics and madras schools.

bob2356 says

I don't think you understand where Islamic violence come from. It's not from poverty, it's from money. Specifically Saudi money. Even more specifically Saudi sunni wahhabism money. If you don't know how that works then I can't begin to explain it to you.

You still don't get it.
The Saudis can and do provide all the money needed to buy bombs and finance terrorism. But it takes a whole new mind set for someone to blow themselves up along with 50 innocent people. That mind set is Islam. A religion that induces hate in a persons mind so much so that it turns him into a suicide bomber.

bob2356 says

Only the muslims commit terrorism? You call yourself strategist? Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were muslim? News to me. Never heard of a place called Ireland-IRA/UDA? Columbia FARC? Greece EA? Spain ETA? Peru Shining Path? Phillipenes NPA? Japan Aum Shinrikyo? Ugunda LRA?

Oh stop it. You are mostly describing crime. How many in your mile long list that no one has ever heard of, have suicide bombers that kill to please a God?

bob2356 says

Muslim terrorists are the only ones that are well funded enough to pull off big attacks that make international news is the difference. It's not muslim violence or muslim terrorism. It's a war but not a war with islam. The war is with our "allies" Saudi Arabia the fundamentalist tiny little sect of of islam xenophobic fanatics who are funding and executing it world wide. Think all of islam is violent terrorists? Show me the shia terrorist attacks or even any sunni terrorist attacks not associated with Saudi sponsored clerics and madras schools.

Weak and pathetic comeback. It IS a war against Islam. Islamic terrorist attacks against China, Russia, India and Philippines have nothing to do with Shiite and Sunnis. Islam demands Muslims to rise up with the sword against the infidels, to spread the word of Allah. Take the example of Iran. They were a proud civilization with potential before the Arabs invaded them, and converted the unfortunate Persians into a pathetic Shiite disaster they are today.

Blurtman says

Tensions surrounding France's Muslim community have long been simmering, as George Packer, a foreign correspondent for The New Yorker who covered the Iraq war, chronicled in an August article. The article, titled "The Other France," wondered whether Paris suburbs are an "incubator for terrorism."

"France has all kinds of suburbs, but the word for them, banlieues, has become pejorative, meaning slums dominated by immigrants," Packer wrote.

"Inside the banlieues are the cités: colossal concrete housing projects built during the postwar decades, in the Brutalist style of Le Corbusier. Conceived as utopias for workers, they have become concentrations of poverty and social isolation. The cités and their occupants are the subject of anxious and angry discussion in France."

That's true but not different from gehttos isolating the have-nots from the haves in any country, and yet they still have a better standard of living than most real ghettos. Also, blacks in the US don't run around and systemically decimate white people with organized terror because they are on average poorer and more isolated than their white peers.

do latin americans machine gun crowds in the US?

"Sat Hello to my LIttle Friend!"

Oh wait, that was just a movie and he was defending his home while executing his 2nd amendment right.

Remember KSA's offer to build Mosques all over Germany.

Do you think they'd be staffed by Moderate Sufis, or Wahabis? Do you think the textbooks for the Madrassahs inside wouldn't refer to Jews and Christians and Hindus as "Apes and Pigs, Crusader Pirates, and Pagan Gangsters?" like they do when they're found in Saudi-funded Mosques from Jakarta to Casablanca, even in the Saudi School in DC for Diplomat's Kids?

Strategist says

You still don't get it.

The Saudis can and do provide all the money needed to buy bombs and finance terrorism. But it takes a whole new mind set for someone to blow themselves up along with 50 innocent people. That mind set is Islam. A religion that induces hate in a persons mind so much so that it turns him into a suicide bomber.

No you don't get it. That mind set is taught and cultured by the madras schools and imans set up and paid for by the saudi's. There are 1.6 billion muslims. How many are terrorists? Ridiculous. Again, where are the shia or non saudi indoctrinated sunni terrorists?

Strategist says

Oh stop it. You are mostly describing crime. How many in your mile long list that no one has ever heard of, have suicide bombers that kill to please a God?

You mean you and the average american has never heard of. Let's see the Tamil Tigers carried out 168 suicide attacks in the name of Hindu religion for a start. Just because you choose to remain totally ignorant of the world outside doesn't mean it didn't happen.

So you are saying only suicide bombers are terrorists now? Just ordinary bombers and mass killers aren't terrorists any more? Does that mean the people that shot up the theatre in france aren't terrorists? Yea keep on shucking and jiving. All the groups kill innocent people in the name of their beliefs mostly their beliefs in a God. That's a terrorist in my book. White supremacists aren't terrorists? The IRA isn''t terrorists. Maoists aren't terrorists? Jewish zionist groups aren't terrorists? The Christian Right and Army of God isn't terrorists? So if it's not a muslim machine gunning down or blowing up people it's not a terrorist? Is that how it works?

There's a difference between Terrorists and Enablers - human laziness. Yeah, 1% of the Population actually is terrorist, but a much larger faction supports it, praises it, keeps the cultural approval of it, gives money to it.

Most people who give to Planned Parenthood or PETA or the NRA have never been physically active at a protest, but they send money and talk it up.

That's why Israel auto-demolishes the houses of Palestinians, because their surviving families get money from the non-actively Terrorist supportive population for each Shaheed.

bob2356 says

All the groups kill innocent people in the name of their beliefs mostly their beliefs in a God. That's a terrorist in my book. White supremacists aren't terrorists? The IRA isn''t terrorists. Maoists aren't terrorists? Jewish zionist groups aren't terrorists? The Christian Right and Army of God isn't terrorists? So if it's not a muslim machine gunning down or blowing up people it's not a terrorist? Is that how it works?

actually, no, that's not true.

they mostly do not kill due to belief in a god. that's pretty much a muslim-only thing.

white supremacists are just racist.
the IRA is an ethnic insurgency against colonialism. they don't kill because of religion.
maoists don't even believe in god! lol.
zionism is more of a nationalism than a religious thing (just ask Gary!)
Christian Right and Army of God? never heard of them.

and even the tamil suicide bombers were pretty much an atheist nationalist organization, not religious.

so sure, there are other terrorists, but there is no other religion that commits nearly as much terrorism as islam does. and islam does it worldwide.

and even the tamil suicide bombers were pretty much an atheist nationalist organization, not religious.

They were the guys that assassinated the Prime Minister of India in the last century. It was a political, not a religious attack.
Bob, you and Bigs sound like atheist Muslims to me. We need your help, not your BS.

so sure, there are other terrorists, but there is no other religion that causes even a tiny fraction as much terrorism as islam does.

The original statement from strategist was only muslims are terrorists. I haven't heard a retraction of that so far.

So you also believe it's only terrorism if it's about god. Blowing innocent people up or machine gunning them doesn't count unless it's for god? Sorry but that's just bullshit plain and simple. I'm pretty sure all the not killed for god innocent dead people wouldn't agree with your view.

No other religion causes even a tiny fraction as much terrorism as islam? The FBI differs with your opinion. They say there were more Jewish terrorist attacks in the US than Muslim 1980 to 2005. http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/ But what would the FBI know about crime or terrorism?

Oh wait there's all those muslim terrorist attacks in europe. Let's see what europol has to say about terrorism in the EU. In 2006 there were 498 terrorist attacks, 1 islamist. In 2007 there were 583 terrorist attacks, 4 islamist. In 2008 there were 515 terrorist attacks, 0 islamist. Certainly a tiny fraction all right. http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/terrorism-in-europe/ But what would europol know about crime or terrorism?

Keep right on sucking up the neocon muslim terrorist boogeyman kool aid while you lose what's left of your rights. There are terrorist attacks all over the world and in america year after year from every type of group imaginable. Left wing, right wing, separatists, supremacists, religious groups of every kind, anti abortionists, animal rights, drug cartels, etc., etc., etc. Yet the only thing your politico's are feeding you day after day is fear of muslim terrorists. Funny how that lines up with the US presence in the middle east.

Radical islam is a problem, not doubt about it. But the root cause is the us's closest ally in the middle east. So you are getting screwed twice. You pay a bunch of money and give up a ton of rights for protection against people sent out by a country you paid a bunch of money to because they are our ally. Monty Python couldn't make this shit up.

Strategist says

and even the tamil suicide bombers were pretty much an atheist nationalist organization, not religious.

They were the guys that assassinated the Prime Minister of India in the last century. It was a political, not a religious attack.

Bob, you and Bigs sound like atheist Muslims to me. We need your help, not your BS.

Really? Do you know why the tamil tigers formed? Because the sinhalese declared buddism the religion of sri lanka. The tamils were hindu's and fought for their religion. They invented the suicide vest. They invented recruiting women and children as suicide bombers. Oh that's right you said only muslims were suicide bombers, I forgot. I'm waiting for you to correct that.

bob2356 says

No other religion causes even a tiny fraction as much terrorism as islam? The FBI differs with your opinion. They say there were more Jewish terrorist attacks in the US than Muslim 1980 to 2005. http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/ But what would the FBI know about crime or terrorism?

Wow, what a Loony Website. Key: "On US Soil".

18 Acts of "Jewish Terrorism", of which 15 were JDL and the vast majority was "Damage to Property" "Death Threats" etc. Also included, in this tiny number spanning 25 years, offering money to anybody who shot at a Nazi Rally.

In the handful of deaths, they were largely right. CIA lied to the State Department about their Agent's Circassian-Nazi Past, who was intimately involved in killing Jews during WW2 for Hitler. The usual defenders of Nazi War Criminals (Pat Buchanan types who came out for smirking Jon Demanjuk) screamed and yelled. Now it's been declassified and the JDL was 100% correct. Had the JDL not assassinated him, he would have continued to live fat and happy on US Taxpayer Social Security to his death in a Medicare-paid nursing home.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tscherim_Soobzokov

If Jewish Terrorists actually conducted 18 "what most people would consider Terrorist" attacks in this country, you'd know about it because Gary and others like him would be repeating it endlessly.

When Americans hear "Terrorism" they think of somebody trying to blow up the WTC or shooting up LAX. Using the "FBI" definition of terrorism, any kid who calls in a bomb threat to get out of school and which goes unsolved, but claims in his phone call it's the Radical More Yogurt for Youth Front, then the FBI will put add a "1" next to "Dangerous Food-concern Terrorism".

bob2356 says

Because the sinhalese declared buddism the religion of sri lanka. The tamils were hindu's and fought for their religion.

no actually, it was because the british colonial masters favored the tamil minority, and when they left, the sinhalese discriminated against tamils.

the groups have different religions, but it's not about religion per se.

no one blew themselves up for lord krishna.

also, hinduism has no mandate to convert or kill the entire population of earth, the way islam does.

bob2356 says

The original statement from strategist was only muslims are terrorists. I haven't heard a retraction of that so far.

Never said that.

bob2356 says

No other religion causes even a tiny fraction as much terrorism as islam? The FBI differs with your opinion. They say there were more Jewish terrorist attacks in the US than Muslim 1980 to 2005. http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/ But what would the FBI know about crime or terrorism?

Oh wait there's all those muslim terrorist attacks in europe. Let's see what europol has to say about terrorism in the EU. In 2006 there were 498 terrorist attacks, 1 islamist. In 2007 there were 583 terrorist attacks, 4 islamist. In 2008 there were 515 terrorist attacks, 0 islamist. Certainly a tiny fraction all right. http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/terrorism-in-europe/ But what would europol know about crime or terrorism?

LOL. You are so funny Bob. It's a web site for loonies.

bob2356 says

Really? Do you know why the tamil tigers formed?

I looked it up. It was political. See for yourself:
http://theglobalstate.com/history/the-tamil-tigers-and-their-quest-for-an-independent-homeland-in-sri-lanka/

Strategist says

Where does Muslim violence in the rest of the world come from? Are you gonna come up with an excuse for Islamic violence in every country that is a target of suicide bombers?Africa, Asia and S America are full of poverty stricken people, but it's only the Muslims there who commit terrorism.

Strategist says

bob2356 says

The original statement from strategist was only muslims are terrorists. I haven't heard a retraction of that so far.

Never said that.

Yea you did. Still waiting to hear how you fucked up.

Strategist says

LOL. You are so funny Bob. It's a web site for loonies.

Show where the numbers are wrong then. I'll wait and wait, and wait, and wait.

Strategist says

I looked it up. It was political. See for yourself:

http://theglobalstate.com/history/the-tamil-tigers-and-their-quest-for-an-independent-homeland-in-sri-lanka/

I asked if you knew how the Tamil started. They evolved into a political independence movement to some degree, but they started as a religious movement and that was always a big part of the struggle. Maybe you should have read it after you looked it up. In Sri Lanka, the 3rd most devout country in the world where 99% of people say religion is important in their daily lives, these harsh governmental restrictions on Hinduism prompted fierce Tamil backlash..

BTW do you realize Sri Lanka is in asia where you claim only muslims commit terrorism? Last time I checked Hinduism is not one of the branches of islam. How does that work?

bob2356 says

Strategist says

bob2356 says

The original statement from strategist was only muslims are terrorists. I haven't heard a retraction of that so far.

Never said that.

Yea you did. Still waiting to hear how you fucked up.

Out of context.

bob2356 says

Show where the numbers are wrong then. I'll wait and wait, and wait, and wait.

99% of all terrorism is Islamic based. Most terrorism in the Mid East is probably not even reported, because it's not news anymore.
All it took is a handful of Allah loving wackos to shut down a whole country. A handful of these same wackos shut down our country after 911. No matter how you twist your well versed arguments, the threat of Islam and the destruction it is capable of, cannot be played down, and must be eliminated.

bob2356 says

BTW do you realize Sri Lanka is in asia where you claim only muslims commit terrorism? Last time I checked Hinduism is not one of the branches of islam. How does that work?

This proves what we already know. All religions are capable of violence and destruction, as history has repeatedly shown. Nothing even comes close to the destructive power of Islam, where a handful of jihadis can shut down whole countries.

Strategist says

This proves what we already know. All religions are capable of violence and destruction, as history has repeatedly shown. Nothing even comes close to the destructive power of Islam, where a handful of jihadis can shut down whole countries.

Seriously? What do you think Iraqis or the Vietnamese might say about the destructive force of US 'Christians?' Or all the countries that could say the same about GB. Perspective.

Bigsby says

Seriously? What do you think Iraqis or the Vietnamese might say about the destructive force of US 'Christians?'

The Vietnam war was purely political. They would refer to the destructive power of the USA, not Christians.

Bigsby says

Or all the countries that could say the same about GB. Perspective.

Again, it's political.
No religion comes even close to the destructive power of Islam. Bob kindly referred to the Shri Lankan Hindus, who were undoubtedly terrorists. They, however, confined themselves to a small part of the world. The destructive power of Islam has reached all 4 corners of the world, and seems to grow by the day. We have no choice but to kill the beast.

Strategist says

The Vietnam war was purely political. They would refer to the destructive power of the USA, not Christians.

And the Iraqis?

Strategist says

We have no choice but to kill the beast.

What does that even mean?
And as I said, the destructive power of Islam as you put it is nothing to that of the Christian West if you actually care to look at the situation from a different perspective, something which you are apparently unwilling to do.

This attack underscores the need for France to immediately engage in negotiations with French Muslims to create two states side-by-side with Paris as a shared capitol

Blurtman says

I am no expert on Islam, but if you kill citizens in Syria, Syrians just might kill citizens in your country. It was published in the Lancet that the USA's bombing campaign at the start of the last Iraq war killed 100,000 civilians. Look at the misery the USA's invasion of Iraq has caused.

Why are you aping Islamist propaganda saying the West killed all those Muslims? No wonder there are so many ISIS recruits when we have dopey Leftists like you regurgitating the same propaganda as Saudi funded Imams.

You DO REALIZE that Muslims killed the vast majority of Muslims in both Iraq and Afghanistan - right? Let alone killing the majority of Christians, Kurds, Yazidis and moderate secular Muslims.

Even the UN and Wikileaks cables admits it.

"UN - Most Afghan civilian deaths 'caused by Taliban attacks, not US forces'"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/09/afghanistan-insurgents-civilian-victims

"The reports in the archive disclosed by WikiLeaks offer an incomplete, yet startlingly graphic portrait of one of the most contentious issues in the Iraq war — how many Iraqi civilians have been killed and by whom.

The reports make it clear that most civilians, by far, were killed by other Iraqis."
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/23/world/middleeast/23casualties.html?_r=1

Strategist says

Bob kindly referred to the Shri Lankan Hindus, who were undoubtedly terrorists.

And that's another example. Why were they undoubtedly terrorists? You say that without any knowledge of what happened in that country. You can't even spell it correctly FFS.

Bigsby says

And that's another example. Why were they undoubtedly terrorists? You say that without any knowledge of what happened in that country. You can't even spell it correctly FFS.

The Founding Fathers would be terrorists by today's standard.

socal2 says

Why are you aping Islamist propaganda saying the West killed all those Muslims? No wonder there are so many ISIS recruits when we have dopey Leftists like you regurgitating the same propaganda as Saudi funded Imams.

You can't possibly say that. 100,000 dead civilians isn't the propaganda figure, is it? That's one of the lower estimates. No one knows the exact figure, but coalition forces killed a great many people, about that there is no debate. I have a Japanese friend who used to do charity work in Fallujah. I've seen many photos of (the exceptionally high rate) of deformed births as a result of the depleted uranium contaminating the area. That is going on now, and will continue and is just but one example. People in the region see this. They know about it. It shapes opinion and attitudes.

Worth repeating.

Muslims have killed far more Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and the Middle East than the US (or Israel) could ever dream of. It is not even close.

To project all those sectarian/religious deaths on the US, Israel, France........West is to ape ISIS propaganda.

socal2 says

Worth repeating.

Muslims have killed far more Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and the Middle East than the US (or Israel) could ever dream of. It is not even close.

To project all those sectarian/religious deaths on the US, Israel, France........West is to ape ISIS propaganda.

That doesn't then somehow negate the huge number of deaths of non-combatants caused by coalition forces. And there are many who lay the subsequent sectarian violence squarely at the door of the US and for pretty good reason.

Bigsby says

You can't possibly say that. 100,000 dead civilians isn't the propaganda figure, is it? That's one of the lower estimates. No one knows the exact figure, but coalition forces killed a great many people, about that there is no debate.

I am not disputing the 100,000 number, I am disputing the notion that the US killed all those people.

It was ISIS/AQI (and former Sunni Baathists) that were blowing up markets, schools and people lining up for government jobs killing 200-300 at a clip. The same Sunni group was blowing up Shia shrines and inviting Iranian-backed Shiite reprisals on Sunnis.

Sunnis were trying to kill there way back into power and US forces were largely protecting the majority Shia population and targeting the worst of the Sunni radicals.