patrick.net

Comparing apples and oranges...

HydroCabron says

i like jesus as a person though. good guy. didn't rob, rape, or kill anyone at all.

unlike you know who...

role models are definitely very important.

How do you figure?

The most effective armaments manufacture and development, and the widest use of that weaponry, has been by Christian nations. Since around 400 AD.

You know: lands who worship "the Prince of Peace."

SoftShell says

Comparing apples and oranges...

Got any other cliches you don't understand, in lieu of arguments? How about "begs the question"?

I'll bet you don't know what that one means, either.

It's pretty clear to anyone with a brain that religions have many interpretations, which leads to many sects doing their own thing. They all claim to have the true interpretation. With Islam, there are millions of Muslims living peacefully in the US. Many of these are devout and go to mosques. In fact, there are about 1200 mosques in the US. These people seem to belong to mosques and are happy living peacefully in a prosperous nation.

The Middle East is a war torn region. In many countries, there is no long lasting peace and prosperity for most is out of reach. Furthermore, in Iraq, we killed some 250,000 directly, and probably another 300,000 due to removal of access to health care, additional suicides, other violence that was secondary to the war, etc. Some counts are that the war on terror has led to 1.3 million dead: http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/03/26/body-count-report-reveals-least-13-million-lives-lost-us-led-war-terror. Furthermore, there is a power vacuum, and that always leads to small militias roaming the land. It is in this region that ISIS has gained traction. Besides tribalism and revenge, joining ISIS can be a sensible decision for an individual in this region. This is partly through pay and partly through forced participation. See the discussion here: http://today.law.harvard.edu/islamic-state-play/ .

So, to state that the primary thing that caused ISIS is that Islam is inherently violent relative to Christianity is really stupid. If that were the case, ISIS would be ripping through the Muslim population in the US. But, it is not. To ignore our war in Iraq as one of the causes if not the proximate cause of ISIS's power is also stupid. It would be equally stupid to say that 9/11 was not the cause of our war in Iraq. Now, I don't blame GW Bush and his administration for the Paris attack. That's also stupid, as the blame lies with ISIS, just as the blame for civilian casualties in Iraq lies with us. But our actions in 2002 have a huge impact what is happening today. I hope the Western governments keep this in mind going forward.

ISIS is a religious group, as described here: http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/ . So, it doesn't pay to pretend that they are not representing Islam. They are representing a particular sect, which is mostly coming from the Sunni people who got the shitty end of the stick in recent conflicts. It is very violent, and wants to return society to the stone ages in some ways, which was a time that they weren't being bombed to oblivion by high tech weapons. On the other hand, they are happy to use technology to achieve this goal. Claiming that ISIS's view of Islam is the correct interpretation is to ignore the fact that the vast majority of Muslims are not part of ISIS, and are not violent.

All religions are capable of and have been used to justify war. Most have some pretty fucked up stories if you read them literally. As an atheist, I'd be happy to see all religions die the quick death that you might assume would happen if humans were primarily logical beings. But its a little frustrating watching a bunch of Christians hold up pitch forks and talk about how violent Islam is.

Role model values are something to work towards.
A state claiming to be a follower of such role model, that does not follow their teachings to the letter, does not invalidate the role model.
It invalidates the states claim, if any, to be a true follower of such role model.

Hows that for a cliche?

HydroCabron says

i like jesus as a person though. good guy. didn't rob, rape, or kill anyone at all.

unlike you know who...

role models are definitely very important.

How do you figure?

The most effective armaments manufacture and development, and the widest use of that weaponry, has been by Christian nations. Since around 400 AD.

3 minutes till I declare victory...the one hour rule..

SoftShell says

It invalidates the states claim, if any, to be a true follower of such role model.

Which proves the point I was arguing: role models aren't too important.

Try sounding out the words in the posts above - if at some point you don't understand a word, write it out in crayon on some construction paper, and ask an adult what it means.

MMR says

In the latter, it is Sunni's targeting Shia and Ahmadiyyas and Ismailis and any non-muslims. As thunderlips correctly noted, at the time of partition Pakistan was 20-25% hindu and now it is less than 1%

That's literally million and millions of people. What happened to them?

YesYNot says

But its a little frustrating watching a bunch of Christians hold up pitch forks and talk about how violent Islam is.

All religions feel that way about Islam.

Strategist says

YesYNot says

But its a little frustrating watching a bunch of Christians hold up pitch forks and talk about how violent Islam is.

How about a Sikh?
https://www.youtube.com/embed/RLtYAYFH5W8

thunderlips11 says

How about a Sikh?

https://www.youtube.com/embed/RLtYAYFH5W8

Very touching. So they killed all their women to prevent them from falling into the hands of Islamic savages like ISIS. And not a single woman even objected or raised her voice.
The moral of this video is ......ISIS existed then and ISIS exists today, because Islam is ISIS and ISIS is Islam.
And there are brain deads here who claim WE created ISIS.

No, it doesn't prove the point you are arguing. Really.
But you knew that already...you just like acting like "a little shit..."

Who do you most admire? A former teacher, a world leader, a neighbor, your boss? As adults, we tend to give little thought to the idea of having a “role model,” as we regard this to be a quality that children seek from the adults in their lives. However, if you stop and consider who most influences you now, and why, you’ll no doubt agree that the people you admire now are giving you your most important life lessons.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201311/we-all-need-role-models-motivate-and-inspire-us

When we are growing up we look to our role models for inspiration and use this as a blueprint for how we should behave when we’re older. This is likely a survival function designed to help us to mimic the traits of those successful members of our society and thereby help us to be successful too. At the same time in later life its thought that our happiness is very much based on our perception of how our life should or could be and the gap between that and how it is in reality. In other words it’s striving for that same kind of success and achieving it that brings us happiness or otherwise when we’re older. This is called ‘actualization’ by Goldstein.
http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/13288/1/The-Importance-of-Role-Models.html

HydroCabron says

Which proves the point I was arguing: role models aren't too important.

My Role Model has always been:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/6bxoAsvhcOI

This article made me sad:

"Blaming Policy, Not Islam, for Belgium’s Radicalized Youth

Brussels itself is about 25 percent Muslim — 70 percent are of Moroccan heritage and 20 percent Turkish, and the ethnic groups tend to stick to themselves, making them difficult for outsiders, like the police, to penetrate."

They had a townhouse and the best use of it they can imagine is to build bombs?!?

And is this guy going to blame himself for the murders of bloggers in Bangladesh, and the violence "across the Muslim world" over cartoons? At some point, probably when it's too late, Belgians may realize with sadness that the policy to blame was bringing Islam into Europe. Germany was divided into East and West after causing two wars within thirty years; the reunification of Germany has enabled East German Angela Merkel to become Chancellor and import more than a million Muslims as part of the NATO/Saudi policy of invade&import. It seems sad that even a guy whose parents fled the Nazis doesn't see the difference between allowing refugees to flee persecution vs importing the persecutors: his parents fled because they were trying to get away from fascism, but the current "refugees" and even native-born Belgians with townhouses bring Islam with them.

Strategist says

And there are brain deads here who claim WE created ISIS

I don't claim exactly that we created ISIS, but I do believe that if they and their families and most of the people they know were economically successful, then they would be far less likely to be terrorists.

How many terrorists have we seen from Turkey ?

Isis-fucks are like Pirates. The people in charge have their own motivations. The foot soldiers come from all over, but many are likely in it b/c it was their best option in life (to get money and women). Of course they espouse the religious doctrine, and they probably believe it after a while. You really need to if you want to do such depraved acts. Some get into it b/c they are religious and are literalists and would do it regardless of economic situation. Ignoring either the economic or the fundamental aspects motivating people to join is stupid from a strategic viewpoint. Anyway, religion has been used for ages to get people to operate one way or another. The current people in power in the Islamic world are not doing the religion any favors by interpreting things the way they do.

marcus says

Strategist says

And there are brain deads here who claim WE created ISIS

I don't claim exactly that we created ISIS, but I do believe that if they and their families and most of the people they know were economically successful, then they would be far less likely to be terrorists.

How many terrorists have we seen from Turkey ?

India is extremely poor with lots of Muslims. How many terrorists have we seen from India? It's not poverty, it's the brain washing. Most of the 911 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia, a rich country.

Strategist says

It's not poverty, it's the brain washing. Most of the 911 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia, a rich country.

911 was Al Qaeda. Isis is different. Being poor is neither sufficient to cause terrorism nor a prerequisite. But someone being poor does make it easier for terrorists to recruited them. Poor dumb people like to blame other people for their problems. Many even lash out if given the right motivations. People with political or religious agendas can exploit that.

YesYNot says

someone being poor does make it easier for terrorists to recruited [sic] them [sic].

No, it's the opposite. @Quigley has posted about this before. Among Muslims, education and wealth are actually risk factors. Check again the NY Times interview quoted above. These people had a townhouse in an upscale neighborhood with many Turkish immigrants. Likewise the San Bernardino murderers had education and steady income, and came from families of means. Trolls (e.g. the transgendered Typhoid Marcus/"humanity") insist on repeating the false talking point that poverty drives it, which is a false argument to give more money to these communities and their government enablers, but some are ignorant and others are simply lying. I suggest reading George Packer's New Yorker article about Tunisia, which I excerpted in the Islam thread. In Islam, all roads lead to violence, because death by Jihad is the one and only guaranteed path to eternal paradise. Over and over again, Islam commands believers personally to commit violence. The problem is Islam. The solution can also be found by actually reading Islam instead of navel-gazing: all of the rewards are restricted to believers, and believers are required to go to Mecca before they die, so offer everyone a free ticket on condition that anyone who goes to a specific list of places that advocate the violent destruction of our government can never come back.

This article (https://newrepublic.com/article/119395/isiss-three-types-fighters) is a bit old, but describes 3 types of ISIS fighters. Foreign psychopaths, true believers, and pragmatists. The pragmatists make up the majority of ISIS fighters, and are basically going along the path of least resistance. It's in within the pragmatist type person that being poor (as in having limited other options) helps drive the person toward ISIS. I agree that being poor would be inversely correlated with the Western psycopaths and true believers, b/c poor people generally don't have time for that shit. The pragmatists are not likely to be terrorists, but they are a big part of ISIS operations.

curious2 says

No, it's the opposite. @Quigley has posted about this before. Among Muslims, post-secondary education is actually a risk factor

Like I said, being poor or uneducated is not a prerequisite. And there are many functions that are not monotonically increasing or decreasing, so this is nothing new.

YesYNot says

Like I said

No, it is the opposite of what you said. You said that "someone being poor does make it easier...." Reality is precisely the opposite: wealth and education make it easier. Stop lying and pull your eyes out of your navel.

YesYNot says

there are many functions that are not monotonically increasing or decreasing

Terrorism has been increasing rapidly every year since the NATO/Saudi alliance decided to topple Syria's government and pump explosive gas and Muslims into Europe.

Also, Isis was an ancient Egyptian goddess. ISIL/Daesh is a terrorist organization that calls itself the Islamic State, and threatens to punish people who call it ISIL or Daesh. Learn the difference.

curious2 says

No, it is the opposite of what you said.

It's consistent with what I said. Stop pretending you are stupid and ignoring the fact that there are many different types of people in the organization. Feel free to continue your anti-social incorrect accusations of lying. Everybody does it these days. You may as well do the same.

As far as ISIS / ISIL / Daesh / DAIISH - I really don't care what they want to be called or what they hate being called. As long as people understand what I mean, I'm going to use what I want, which is ISIS. It's the first name people were using and is easy to remember. It looks redundant and reminds me of a debate about what the meaning of IS IS.

YesYNot says

It's the first name people were using and is easy to remember.

Even that is incorrect. People started with ISIL and the DoD officials continue to say ISIL.

YesYNot says

Stop pretending you are stupid

At least you acknowledge (albeit indirectly) that I am not stupid. Now, stop pretending to be a scientist until such time as you can acknowledge that less likely and more likely are opposites. You have in fact repeatedly lied, and you lie about lying. Even with facts right in front of you, on your screen, you say the opposite, and that is a lie, when you know the facts but say the opposite; pretending you were joking does not fool anyone when you're talking about people murdered in Paris or America. Your comments remind me of Rin's description of current scientific academia, more political bs than actual science. Maybe IRL you can bribe or bully people into tolerating your lies, or letting you call them jokes, but you have nothing to offer online other than words. Make yours correct.

curious2 says

acknowledge (albeit indirectly) that I am not stupid

I never thought you were.

curious2 says

Now, stop pretending to be a scientist until such time as you can acknowledge that less likely and more likely are opposites.

I acknowledged that being dumb and poor could be inversely related to people becoming radicalized terrorists. I also stated that lack of other opportunities could at the same time be directly related to people in Iraq going along with ISIS rather than standing up to them, avoiding them, or leaving. Those are the foot soldiers and are important to ISIS. Nothing you have said or that is in here (http://phys.org/news/2014-03-youth-wealth-factors-violent-radicalization.html) contradicts that.

curious2 says

Even that is incorrect. People started with ISIL

Washington Post started with ISIS
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/06/18/isis-or-isil-the-debate-over-what-to-call-iraqs-terror-group/

NYT currently using ISIS in headline
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/26/world/middleeast/abd-al-rahman-mustafa-al-qaduli-isis-reported-killed-in-syria.html

Regardless of the DOD official policy, people were using both ISIS and ISIL. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/19/world/middleeast/islamic-state-in-iraq-and-syria-or-islamic-state-in-iraq-and-the-levant.html

The question I have is why does anybody care so much?

YesYNot says

The question I have is why does anybody care so much?

I wish that I could call that a good question, but it isn't. Whole articles have been written on it. You might like the Guardian article saying they were going to keep saying Isis despite complaints from actual people named Isis. You might not care at all about the companies named Isis that have had to change their name. And, since you seem to cling to the popular but absurd notion that religions are all the same, you might imagine no difference between Isis and ISIL, even though they are totally different theologies. But ultimately it comes down to what George Orwell wrote: if you lose the ability to speak and write clearly, then you lose the ability to think clearly. Maybe that's why you can't admit when you're wrong, and why you keep lying instead, and imagine that you can obfuscate enough to fool everyone. You can't. You can only fool the people who can't tell the difference between Isis (the ancient Egyptian goddess, namesake to people and companies around the world) and ISIL (the terrorists who would cut off your head if they got the chance). Here's a thought: give $1,000 to someone who calls herself Isis, and $1,000 to someone who calls herself ISIL, and see which one cuts off your head.

curious2 says

going to keep saying Isis despite complaints

There's a difference between Isis and ISIS, and it's unfortunate for anyone who named a company Isis. Same goes for Osama for that matter.

curious2 says

George Orwell wrote: if you lose the ability to speak and write clearly, then you lose the ability to think clearly.

ISIS is commonly accepted and 100% understood, so this quote does not apply. When I or the NYT writes ISIS, it stands for the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria. It happens to be similar to the ancient Egyptian goddess. There are many words with multiple meanings. Some of us are human and can easily understand which ISIS is being referred to by the context. Others, while intelligent, seem to lack some basic interpretation skills.

Is it really a big deal?

It's like people named Jerry complaining British Government Organs, Radio, and Media keep calling the Nazis "Jerry".

Or somebody named Guy complaining about "Guy TV".

"It's not my channel!!!"

YesYNot says

The current people in power in the Islamic world are not doing the religion any favors by interpreting things the way they do.

That's an interesting point.

thunderlips11 says

Is it really a big deal?

Well, not nearly as big as murdering bloggers, or a death sentence for blasphemy, or assassinating the Governor and bombing courthouses.

It reminds me though of George Orwell's Politics and the English Language:

"Modern English, especially written English, is full of bad habits which spread by imitation and which can be avoided if one is willing to take the necessary trouble. If one gets rid of these habits one can think more clearly, and to think clearly is a necessary first step toward political regeneration: so that the fight against bad English is not frivolous and is not the exclusive concern of professional writers.
***
One can cure oneself of the not un- formation by memorizing this sentence: A not unblack dog was chasing a not unsmall rabbit across a not ungreen field.
***
If you simplify your English, you are freed from the worst follies of orthodoxy. You cannot speak any of the necessary dialects, and when you make a stupid remark its stupidity will be obvious, even to yourself. Political language — and with variations this is true of all political parties, from Conservatives to Anarchists — is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.

If you cannot say what you mean, then you cannot mean what you say. The same applies to all obfuscation.

Some commercial sites, e.g. the Guardian, write "Isis" without even capitalizing the whole acronym, thus maximizing confusion. The point of a name is to identify, and in the case of a military target to identify with maximum accuracy and precision. The clearest acronym might be DAIISH, as pointed out by CNN.

As for soldiers calling the Germans "Jerry", or calling the Viet Cong "Charlie", I think the context is more like gallows humor. In Platoon, Charlie Sheen played an American soldier in Viet Nam, and if the irony of fighting against "Charlie" troubled him at all, that didn't show. Anyway I tend to give soldiers risking their lives the benefit of the doubt when it comes to language, unlike armchair chickenhawks who support the draft.

curious2 says

The best might be DAIISH

Arab experts think that it is the most accurate, and ISIS-fucks prefer it. The best two are ISIS and Daesh.
ISIS is great, because it is a simple and direct acronym for English words describing the group. It is preferable to ISIL, because nobody in the US knows what Levant is, and even if they did, using it is presuming that the Islamic state might expand into a wider area. DAESH is also good, because the ISIS fucks think it is pejorative and hate it. DAIISH is more accurate than DAESH, and the ISIS fucks prefer it. But whatever. We shouldn't be trying to please them by calling them different words whenever they like it.
As far as capitalizing acronyms, I prefer to see acronyms capitalized, but I see people using lower cases for acronyms these days. It's not a big deal.

Is this the Atheist that got hacked up in the Streets. He really showed those backward heathens with his internet ridicule.

curious2 says

chickenhawks who support the draft.

What if ISIS had 20 million in a military, had taken over 90% of Europe, and had killed 20 million Americans and subjugated another 100 million in our own country. What if our military was depleted, and we could not get enough volunteers to fight ISIS. Would you prefer a draft or would you prefer to just let the rest of the country be slaughtered and subjugated?

Either you prefer the draft under bad enough circumstances, or you think that there should never be a draft under any circumstances. If you prefer the latter, you'd rather be a lamb to the slaughter. Which one are you, Curious2?

YesYNot says

What if ISIS had 20 million in a military, had taken over 90% of Europe, and had killed 20 million Americans and subjugated another 100 million in our own country. What if our military was depleted, and we could not get enough volunteers to fight ISIS. Would you prefer a draft or would you prefer to just let the rest of the country be slaughtered and subjugated?

We would use nukes well before that happens. The fear is ISIS getting nukes to take out Western cities.

YesYNot says

Which one are you, Curious2?

LOL, I'm the one who won't be fooled by your false frames and false choices. You said America "had to" draft Americans to kill and die in Viet Nam. Did you serve in the military and fight in whichever undeclared war the MIC called America (and thus you) "indispensable" to? If not, then you are a chickenhawk who supports drafting others to do what you refused to do personally.

I oppose the draft for the same reason that I oppose torture in interrogations: it doesn't work. Prior eras used the draft, and torture, and horse-drawn carriages. We use drones, psychology, and the Internet. As for your scenario of Europe getting overrun by ISIL/Daesh/DAIISH, it seems far-fetched today but the risk grows as you and other chickenhawks bleat (block that metaphor!) the MIC talking points to invade&import, as the NATO/Saudi intervention in Syria has already begun to do. They have set off a whirlwind of terror attacks increasing rapidly every year since 2010, and for no benefit whatsoever to NATO citizens: they haven't even got their gas pipeline. It didn't work, at least for NATO citizens, but it did work for the Saudis pumping angry Muslims into Europe.

curious2 says

Did you serve in the military and fight in whichever undeclared war the MIC called America (and thus you) "indispensable" to? If not, then you are a chickenhawk who supports drafting others to do what you refused to do personally.

Talk about a false frame and false choice....

curious2 says

LOL, I'm the one who won't be fooled by your false frames and false choices.

I see you are to chicken shit to answer a simple question of what circumstances if any would merit the draft in your mind. curious2 says

You said

I see you are still taking quotes out of context. At first, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and figured you just had asbergers, and couldn't understand what was written. Now, it's clear that it's just intentional lying on your part. Those quotes have been clearly explained and you keep doing it.

YesYNot says

lying

is your department, not mine. I quote, and link. As for calling me "chicken," I'm not Marty McFly, and I don't get fooled about your insistence on drafting people to kill and die in Viet Nam. More than a million people died because of what you said you "had to do" there, and more than a hundred thousand have been killed by the NATO/Saudi invade&import policy you support in Syria, and you haven't even listed which war(s) you served in. That's a chickenhawk, plain and simple, lowest breed on earth.

curious2 says

As for calling me "chicken," I'm not Marty McFly

+1 for Marty McFly reference

Hey Asperbers, here's my original post, which you never cite in its entirety, because you are a lying asshole:
In response to

anonymous says
Millennials are also wanting boots on the ground against ISIS - just not their own boots.

I said

Maybe, we'll have to resort to a draft, like we had to do back when their daddies were trying to stay out of Vietnam. That way, only poor, dark skinned, and middling people will have to die in the desert. Trump types can flat foot their way to the couch.

Clearly, the first quote is about millennials who are chickenhawks for wanting to go to war, but not wanting to fight in it. My response was to make fun of them, and also to make fun of the draft and economic situation, which made lower income (middling) and dark skinned people die more so than the Trump types. It was also a poke at Trump, which you might of noticed, I was doing a lot of.

If you don't get that, you have Aspergers, so that is what I'm going to call you from now on. I've explained all of this to you before, and you insist on linking not to the original post, but to a series of posts where you are calling me a liar while simultaneously misrepresenting what I said. At least when CIC quotes single words out of context, it is directly below the original post and anyone can see what a disingenuous tool he is. You are hiding the source through a web of your lies stretching over about 4 months.

When you first started calling me out for being pro draft, and I was asked about it, I was honest and trusting enough to explain under what conditions would make the draft seem like a good idea to me.

When asked, I also shared my opinion on women in the draft, and elaborated on how close I think we are to needing the draft now:

Thunderlips, see above. In regard to the draft, I don't think that the draft should be used at all unless there is a WWII type situation where we are in imminent danger of being invaded. The ISIS situation IMHO is less than a 1 on a scale of 1 to 10 where WWII was probably an 8. If it the draft is used, able bodied women should be conscripted as well. We are past the point of looking at women as if they are a dainty flower in need of protection from everything. I have no idea about the pregnancy thing - never thought about it.

In WWII, Europe was half-way conquered, and we were attacked on our own soil. This clearly wasn't enough of a reason for you, because you continue to call me a chickenhawk even though I haven't been advocating for any intervention (another lie on your part) and directly stated that I would not support a draft in any of the interventions post WWII. I've given you opportunity to explain (like I did) under what conditions if any you would consider the draft acceptable, and you ducked the question, like the chickenshit that you are, because you are afraid to even spell out your thoughts.

There are plenty of other times when you have erroneously called me a liar.
Here, you were calling me a liar after guessing what source I used. You linked to that post as proof of me lying many more times
Here, you were lying again Aspergers. You are claiming that I got my views on the draft listening to NPR during the war, even though I was not old enough to be listening to the radio at the time. You erroneously referred to NPR as government news. You would call this a lie Aspergers, because you can't tell the difference between a typo, an honest mistake, and a lie.

I don't mind that you have Aspergers, but the combination of your Aspergers and the fact that you are a nasty obsessive person makes talking with you useless. So, I'm not going to discuss my service history or anything else with you unless you start having an honest conversation (replying to questions) and stop misquoting me and lying about what I've said.