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turtledove says

Patnet Guide to Sensible Home Improvements

1. Buy a house with a negative amortizing mortgage. The higher the price, the better.
2. Insure it for three times what you paid for it.
3. Burn it down. Be sure to have an alibi or a crony in the fire department.
4. Collect the insurance money.
5. Default on the mortgage.
6. While waiting to be foreclosed on, advertise the burnt wreckage as an orgy pit on AirBnd.
7. Rake in the cash from hoodlums further trashing the place.
8. Go to step 1, preferably before the foreclosure is completed.

Thank you, Dan. We'll call that "plan B" for now.

I wouldnt touch a thing. Thats two extra 7500 paid vacations per year for the next 5 years. Let the kids grow up and use the house then fix up whats broken when theyre older

Most of it should be what you want, imo. There are studies to show in general what gives the most return, but it really depends on the area and what you are starting with, which is probably the reason for the thread.
The kitchen looks pretty nice to me with some new countertops. Does it work well? Layout looks fine to me. Is there a vent over the cook top? It's a big cook top for no vent. Do you have 9 foot ceilings and 42 inch upper cabs? Looks like it to me, but hard to tell. I hate shorter upper cabs. I'd consider replacing fronts and using drawers in the bottoms.
That bathroom is huge. Personally I wouldn't spend much on it.
Front doors have a big impact on resale, iirc. Your garage is basically your front door. If look for tasteful options for that.
The door frames look stupid with that crown in the kitchen. I'm guessing that the crown is not original.
I think you should have 3 contractors come discuss these options with you to give a better idea on costs for each item.
I notice interior doors, but I doubt it would affect an offer much. If there are 10 doors, it might cost a few thousand to replace, so it's not a huge deal. Good working doors and hardware is kind of important.

turtledove says

Very nice house, but $820k seems very high for a 3300 sq. ft. house unless it's own a 1+ acre lot. Having a wall around the yard sounds great. I'd put flowering vines draping over the wall. Something like this.

turtledove says

Thank you, Dan. We'll call that "plan B" for now.

PatNet has made me cynical.

anonymous says

Are you looking for resale, personal happiness, energy efficiency or other ?

A little bit of everything. I tend to be a pretty practical person. Though I like nice things, I would never install 14k gold bathroom fixtures. I genuinely laugh when people start talking about where they imported a piece of marble from... When we first moved in, here's what I did:

1) Ripped out all the carpet upstairs and installed hardwoods. With the animals and my husbands allergies, it's a must. And they're pretty.
2) Installed solar panels.
3) Installed a water softening system and whole house filter
4) Installed one the those things that go on the water heater that pumps the water to the furthest bathroom much more quickly.
5) Cleaned up the landscaping.

(Then you might recall my husband lost his job and we started our own medical practice.... So we were on a spending hiatus for a while. Now we're back.)

So, as you can see, I tend to start with practical items. I should have a whole house fan on the list. I was reading about a solar powered whole house fan. Seems pretty cool (no pun). And I can totally see how it could make a difference. It takes a while to cool the house upstairs on hot days because there is so much heat trapped in the attic. And it isn't a small attic.

turtledove says

Assuming a person has a $75k budget, which improvements do you think would provide the most bang for the buck?

1) Bathrooms (3) have pretty basic materials with white tile countertops & showers, mildly worn cabinets, very worn shower glass. (There's a lot of hard water gunk in the frame. I installed a very nice water softening system, and I've tried to clean it, but Lime Away only goes so far.) Fans are inoperable.

2) Kitchen has mildly worn cabinets, tile countertops, and circa 2002 appliances. Everything works.

If you want the biggest bang for the buck, redo the bathrooms and kitchen. Yours is a high end neighborhood where all your neighbors are likely to have high end upgrades.
Considering a home sold in the neighborhood for $1.2 million, you got a damn good bargain. Congratulations. :)

Do not make any improvements.Save your money.
Overpaying buyers are the true path to wealth.

Dan8267 says

Very nice house, but $820k seems very high for a 3300 sq. ft. house unless it's own a 1+ acre lot.

Actually it was the lowest price per square foot in all of Talega at the time. We had to fight two investors for the house. Fortunately for us, the owners wanted the house to go to a family. The bank appraiser was very complimentary, if that means anything.

Dan8267 says

I'd put flowering vines draping over the wall. Something like this.

Those are gorgeous. I wonder if I get enough sunlight. Do you know if they require full sunlight?

anonymous says

just to clarify it was a thermostatically controlled power gable vent fan - not a whole house fan, they are two different things entirely.

You are correct. I used the wrong words. We already have a whole house fan as part of our air/heat system. I meant a solar attic fan.

Strategist says

If you want the biggest bang for the buck, redo the bathrooms and kitchen. Yours is a high end neighborhood where all your neighbors are likely to have high end upgrades.

Considering a home sold in the neighborhood for $1.2 million, you got a damn good bargain. Congratulations. :)

That is one thing that is consistent across the board. EVERYONE has redone the kitchens and the bathrooms. We are an outlier with our builder grade kitchen/baths.

YesYNot says

The door frames look stupid with that crown in the kitchen. I'm guessing that the crown is not original.

I don't know if it's original, but I didn't put them in. I like them though. Wish they were in all the rooms. But they don't go with the dinky door jams and the dinky baseboards. I agree with you. It looks weird. Like an incomplete thought. It's the same with the windows. Some have really nice picture frame mouldings... and others have nothing. It's like they started to add millwork and then changed their minds or ran out of money.

YesYNot says

Do you have 9 foot ceilings and 42 inch upper cabs? Looks like it to me, but hard to tell. I hate shorter upper cabs. I'd consider replacing fronts and using drawers in the bottoms.

Not sure about the ceiling height. But I think they are 10 feet. When I stand up the ceiling looks to be more than 3.5 feet higher than my head. But, the cabinets do look short. I agree.... the taller upper cabinets would look much nicer.

turtledove says

Dan8267 says

Very nice house, but $820k seems very high for a 3300 sq. ft. house unless it's own a 1+ acre lot.

Actually it was the lowest price per square foot in all of Talega at the time. We had to fight two investors for the house. Fortunately for us, the owners wanted the house to go to a family. The bank appraiser was very complimentary, if that means anything.

Dan can't comprehend California real estate. The fact a similar home sold for $1.2 million tells me you got a bargain.
We were in Talega 18 months ago, some homes with a good view were already going for $1.3 million plus.

turtledove says

Strategist says

If you want the biggest bang for the buck, redo the bathrooms and kitchen. Yours is a high end neighborhood where all your neighbors are likely to have high end upgrades.


Considering a home sold in the neighborhood for $1.2 million, you got a damn good bargain. Congratulations. :)

That is one thing that is consistent across the board. EVERYONE has redone the kitchens and the bathrooms. We are an outlier with our builder grade kitchen/baths.

If everyone else has done it, and you have not, your home will be considered a fixer upper. Making improvements in this case definitely makes sense.

Strategist says

Dan can't comprehend California real estate. The fact a similar home sold for $1.2 million tells me you got a bargain.

We were in Talega 18 months ago, some homes with a good view were already going for $1.3 million plus.

That's the one thing we don't have... A view. But the view homes tended to be on very small lots. We're on a 10k lot, which is huge for Talega. And you know I need the lot for the dogs who just want space to wrestle... The house up the street that sold for $1.2 didn't have a view either. It had an upgraded kitchen and bathrooms... and it had a pool. And the exterior is different looking. But the layout was very similar... almost identical. So, I feel pretty good that this particular house is a good comp. Careyes in Talega is selling for over $2M these days! And a friend of ours in a view home with a pool sold for a little under $1.5 last year.

turtledove says

Strategist says

Dan can't comprehend California real estate. The fact a similar home sold for $1.2 million tells me you got a bargain.


We were in Talega 18 months ago, some homes with a good view were already going for $1.3 million plus.

That's the one thing we don't have... A view. But the view homes tended to be on very small lots. We're on a 10k lot, which is huge for Talega. And you know I need the lot for the dogs who just want space to wrestle... The house up the street that sold for $1.2 didn't have a view either. It had an upgraded kitchen and bathrooms... and it had a pool. And the exterior is different looking. But the layout was very similar... almost identical. So, I feel pretty good that this particular house is a good comp. Careyes in Talega is selling for over $2M these days! And a friend of ours in a view home with a pool sold for a little under $1.5 last year.

I remember telling you, you will be glad for buying that home a couple of years ago or so. Now, I can even more confidently tell you, you will be very very glad another 2 years from now.
When demand > supply in desirable neighborhoods, prices must go up.

Ironman says

You just do what my wife does. She starts the project (ie: demo) then she lets her resident handyman (me) do all the labor to replace everything. She then takes the $40K she saved on labor and goes clothes shopping, shopping for jewelery, plans vacations, buys tons of crap, flowers, buys toys for the rugrats and whatever else she wants...

We have a great relationship, she STARTS the projects and I get to FINISH them...

My wife won't trust me with a screwdriver, unless I'm in bed with her. :)

Strategist says

If everyone else has done it, and you have not, your home will be considered a fixer upper. Making improvements in this case definitely makes sense.

I tend to agree. We're definitely an outlier. Unfortunately, the people who originally owned this house struggled a lot. From what I've heard, they were in and out of foreclosure for a long time before the short sale. So, I'm not surprised that they didn't do any home improvements.

The only thing that gives me pause is how expensive bathrooms and kitchens are to do. It's like, do I want to do the kitchen and bathrooms?... Or do I want to do everything else on the list?

Ironman says

We have a great relationship, she STARTS the projects and I get to FINISH them...

Does she lend you out ever?

My husband has many great qualities... Mr. Fixit just isn't one of them.

turtledove says

I tend to agree. We're definitely an outlier. Unfortunately, the people who originally owned this house struggled a lot. From what I've heard, they were in and out of foreclosure for a long time before the short sale. So, I'm not surprised that they didn't do any home improvements.

That's why you got a bargain.

turtledove says

The only thing that gives me pause is how expensive bathrooms and kitchens are to do. It's like, do I want to do the kitchen and bathrooms?... Or do I want to do everything else on the list?

You may need to increase your budget. No need to rush.

YesYNot says

Is there a vent over the cook top? It's a big cook top for no vent.

Sorry, I missed that question. Yes, it has a vent. It's in the cabinet above the stove. You can see it when you look at the underside of the cabinet. Very low profile, obviously.

Ironman says

Actually, looking at your wish list, I ended up doing the majority of those in our last house? Are you sure you're not her?

Actually honey... yes, it's me. I bought a house in So Cal for you for Father's Day (sorry it's belated). There's a lot of work to do and I need you to get started right away. I've lost my cell phone, so you can't call or text me. Just post on Patnet when you're at the San Clemente train station and I'll come and pick you up. BTW, I also bought a new car... and I've had some plastic surgery so I might look a little different.... And you can't hug me because everything still hurts from the surgery. And it will probably continue to be sore for several weeks. But it's totally me.... Now get to work!

No.
Georgies closing down has made you cynical...

Dan8267 says

turtledove says

Thank you, Dan. We'll call that "plan B" for now.

PatNet has made me cynical.

Ironman says

make sure you have a LARGE cash emergency cushion saved up before taking on renovation projects.

I hear you. It represents half. But I refuse to dip into the other half. So, if I need to wait on the bigger improvements that's what I'll do. I think that the attic improvements are actually a really good idea. That's a savings in energy bills, and I like that. Solar panels were a great thing to do. For the entire year, my electric bill was less than $500. Prior to that, we easily paid that in less than two months over the summer. And I can't sleep when I'm hot, so I definitely need air conditioning during the really hot months. And some of you might remember Sammy (RIP). He had paralysis in his throat, so he needed a cool room... So we were always running the AC.

Quick dog update... after Sammy died, we adopted Annabelle not all that long ago. She and Buddy are great friends. Annabelle is a husky/German Shepherd mix (she's petite, so there's probably something else in there). She's so sweet. Mensa compared to Buddy (Golden Retriever). Poor Annabelle was taken from some asshole who wanted to put her down for no discernable reason... Since she was planning to put her down, she didn't see a need to feed her. So, we've been working on getting the weight back on her. Anyway, Buddy was soooooo happy to have a new best friend to play with.

Ironman says

I've been wanting to add another 4 legged creature to the mix

No one wants to hear about your sex life.

Xanthidae says

No.

Georgies closing down has made you cynical...

Homophobia is so pre-Orlando.

turtledove says

Those are gorgeous. I wonder if I get enough sunlight. Do you know if they require full sunlight?

Don't know. I know nothing about gardening. There should be plenty of guides online though and the folks at home depot's gardening section may be helpful.

kitchen, kitchen, kitchen. then master bath later.

really good structure/layout for new cabs, new appliances, and tops. pay out for the nice fridge and range - wolf, thermadoor, viking, whatever. stainless hood. quartz surfaces. if you can deal with blemishes then carrara is "in" right now, but i personally get annoyed with mine due to the etching, and even chipping around the sink if my fry pan hits it while washing. really soft stuff. push the new cabs up flush to the ceiling to show off the height. those half walls on either side of the fridge and ovens close in the room too much. try to remove those if you can. colors are subjective but overall white for the primary stuff is still king after all these years. goes without saying that the flooring is in need of a refresh. wood planks or seamless tile in neutral tone to carry throughout.

from the kitchen, the rest of the effort should just flow out.

The headline says "Sensible" but the suggested list seems to emphasize aesthetics, so I will offer an alternative list, free and worth every penny:

A) since it was a short sale, you might consider asking an attorney or title insurance expert to make sure your ownership of the place is covered properly.
B) since the area "is vulnerable to wildfire," you might want to check and maintain the outdoor fire protection. Specifically, that brick wall might help, and making sure you have metal soffets. Years ago, I read a highly detailed report from Florida describing why some houses were destroyed by fire and others weren't. Perimeter foliage, wooden fences, and wooden soffets were all significant risk factors, and you can easily imagine why: the fire spreads from foliage to fence, and in some instances the fence acts like a fuse leading up to the side of the house, where the fire spreads to the wooden soffet and then the roof.
C) since AF/DBOAPD hasn't commented yet, YAMS or at least sweet potatoes. You might also consider tomatoes, a lemon tree, etc.

BTW, nice driveway, light grey. If cities replaced their dark asphalt roads with light grey concrete, they could reduce significantly the "urban heat island" effect. I have actually suggested that in SF, but was told that traffic stains would not meet the city's aesthetic standards. It reminded me of why the SF Bay Bridge cost 64x more than Governor Wilson's original viaduct proposal: the excuse of "aesthetics" enabled a vast patronage network to lobby heavily for a more distinctive (and expensive) design. If you maintain that driveway color, you can accurately say you're being sensible and helping to reduce global warming by having a light shade of driveway.

turtledove says

3) Window treatments are original faux wood blinds. I don't think any of them actually work right. Preference would be plantation shutters. Many, many windows throughout.

be prepared to take a hit on this, if you want it done right. we're in a 3400 sqft house and coughed up... drum roll... $18k for window treatments. mix of shutters and roman shades. hollow-core shutters will save lots of money (they are polysatin instead of real wood).

turtledove says

My gardener said $500 to plant a fast growing, flowering hedge that would virtually hide the wall.

this is the most practical and the most pleasant.

trumpet vines:

star jasmine:

I would not spend a dime other than cosmetics of a huge 2002 built home. There is no ROI. Whatever you spend is just preference.

If the home was built in 1922 and 1500 sq feet where real estate is 1K a sq feet, then yeah, plenty of ROI potential.

In one of my neighborhoods, two out of three of the people buying renovate the houses they move into, even if the houses have already been renovated/improved. The values of the homes don't fluctuate that much based on improvements. Also, anything you improve will be considered dated in five years, and the decorators will be off on another tangent pushing a different style.

Before the 2006 crash, one house with my floor plan sold for the highest price that the neighborhood had seen. The place had already been renovated by a very meticulous couple, but the people moving in decided to upgrade the home to their taste to the tune of $250k to French Provincial and put Italian marble throughout the master bathroom.

Their fortunes turned, the market crashed, and they basically sold the home for a couple hundred thousand less than what they paid for it WITHOUT the improvements, that required them to tear out previous improvements that had already been in place.

If you think that your improvements will improve value, you have to assume that potential buyers are all going to love your taste, which they probably won't. It actually hurts to see in our neighborhood beautiful tile floors torn out for carpet, carpet torn out for wood floors, wood floors torn out for tile etc.etc.

Some people a few doors down with our floor plan spent 200k renovating the home, kept it for two years before selling. That home had also been already renovated. I actually thought about just buying their place and selling our unimproved place, because the price differential, even with real estate commissions, would not have been that great and no waiting on construction, dealing with workers etc. The location of my present house, though, is better and I prefer it.

Lately we have been getting offers to buy our home for cash at the local going rate on a monthly basis i.e. people who want to be in the neighborhood and are willing to pay any reasonable price cash for one of the homes.

Nobody believes us that there were periods in this neighborhood where the houses would stay on the market for over a year without selling at all.

I would vote for using the money to improve the curb appeal, comfort and the infrastructure i.e. the insulation and attic fans etc. Wait until you are REALLY flush to renovate perfectly respectable interiors, and only if you really think this home is your forever home.

Not that you will consider it, but are you buying the building you run your practice at? You might want to save up for a down payment if not.

You could stain the cabinets in the kitchen for an immediate impressive face lift. Just rough up the surface and apply three coats. Changes color to a dark mahogany. Cheap upgrade! My wife did a couple bathroom cabinets this way so it's easy enough, as long as you pay attention to detail.

turtledove says

Not sure about the ceiling height. But I think they are 10 feet. When I stand up the ceiling looks to be more than 3.5 feet higher than my head. But, the cabinets do look short. I agree.... the taller upper cabinets would look much nicer.

If your upper cabinets are 42 inches, that's big enough for me. I don't see the need to make them go up to 10 foot ceilings.

For me, the kitchen has to be very efficient. So, the workflow has to be really good. Not just having the stupid fridge / sink / stove triangle, but things like moving dishes from the sink to dishwasher and dishwasher to putting away have to be efficient. There has to be adequate storage for things where they are going to be used. Drawers are much more efficient than cabinets with big spaces, even if there are pull outs inside the cabinet. European frameless cabinets are much more efficient spacewise than faceframe cabs. So I built frameless cabinets, and even built drawers to put under our sink and fit around the plumbing. I don't care for a pantry, but my wife likes them, so I built her one. We like a flush fridge, and it looks like you have one. But we don't like shallow fridges, so we put 30 inch lower cabinets and counter next to the fridge and 18 inch deep upper cabinets.

If you do work in the kitchen: Things I like about your kitchen are the basic layout (L with Island), plenty big, and full size upper cabinets. The sink is in the island, where it should be. 36 " gas cooktop. Things that are bad: No landing space next to refrigerator, lack of drawers, undersized range hood, terrible countertop (tile is nasty).

If that door near the fridge is important (like how you get into the kitchen from the car), I would leave it there. If not, I would consider removing it and putting in a corner pantry. I would definitely remove that double oven and replace with countertop space. If you leave the door, then remove the separator wall, so it makes a good landing space near the fridge. I'd also consider moving the microwave. If you have plenty of cabinetry (I think you do), you could put a microwave drawer in a lower cabinet, and get more counterspace (especially if you used a pantry).

I would only spend a lot on the kitchen if I expected to be there for a while and get good use out of it.

When did Pat.net turn into HGTV (but with good advice)?
Love your posts TD, but I found your place in less than five minutes. You might want to take down the pic of the front of the house.
Will the hot tub go here?

EBGuy says

When did Pat.net turn into HGTV (but with good advice)?

I see it this way... There are many people on this site who have been watching the housing market for years. Though they may not be decorators/contractors, they have a good sense of smart improvements and improvements that fall under the category of "you better love it because no one will ever pay more for your house because of it." HGTV is a bit of a joke. If they had their way, everyone would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars improving their homes every few years. So, they are to be ignored except for the occasional good tip. JMHO. And I'm not one to think that just because I watched a show about something that it's super easy and I should go buy a wet saw and a sledgehammer. I'm comfortable with my numerous limitations.

EBGuy says

but I found your place in less than five minutes.

Why?

At least you can be my independent confirmation that I'm not misrepresenting any facts.

This might mean that I've inadvertently violated the patnet terms of service.... and we all know what Patrick does to people who violate his terms of service. The GOP convention just won't be the same without me. My advance apologies if that is to be the case. Just know I'll be thinking about you all.

EBGuy says

Will the hot tub go here?

Nah. It appears to be set up on the opposite side. All the plumbing is in front of the bushes at the edge of the other end of the pavers. I'm not sure how far away it can be built from the plumbing....

indigenous says

Not that you will consider it, but are you buying the building you run your practice at? You might want to save up for a down payment if not.

No. First, the building isn't for sale. Second, I wouldn't even consider that until we move onto the next phase of an on-site embryology laboratory and surgery center. That's a few more years out unless we go along with the investors who want to own part of our practice in exchange for doing the build-out now.

Ceffer says

Nobody believes us that there were periods in this neighborhood where the houses would stay on the market for over a year without selling at all.

It goes in waves, no doubt. There was one house that was on the market for seemingly a long time (9 months to a year)... then it sold, three more houses went on the market and they all sold within a month or two. There wasn't anything substantially better or worse about any of them. It's just the way it goes.