patrick.net

thunderlips11 says

Because Tech Salaries are just exploding for Computer Programmer I jobs, positions going unfilled, and what native-born state university grads need is lower salaries and diluted opportunities..

amazing what some people base their votes on.

perhaps there's some sort of media propaganda in place that sways (bludgeons) them into thinking a certain way...

and just maybe these silicon valley asshats are buying and running those media outlets...

DERP!

or maybe, it would be better to let in lots of smart creative immigrants. Thats what rome did, that made it great for centuries. That has been one of the major US advantages throughout history.

Not that the tards on this site can learn from history!

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

Thats what rome did, that made it great for centuries.

Now you are making up history.

Hillary must really hate American workers.

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

or maybe, it would be better to let in lots of smart creative immigrants. Thats what rome did, that made it great for centuries. That has been one of the major US advantages throughout history.

We need the right brains to keep us ahead in this world, and for someone to support our social security when we retire. If we cannot produce them, lets import them. Being a land of immigrants I see nothing wrong in that.

Strategist says

If we cannot produce them

LOL!

landtof says

Strategist says

If we cannot produce them

LOL!

We are way behind in turning out STEM graduates when compared to China or India. Either our companies do research in those countries, or do research at home. Lets do it here and remain numero uno.

thunderlips11 says

/clinton-tech-plan-reads-like-silicon-valley-wish-list/

reads like silicon valley CEO wish list.

the 99% get nothing.

Strategist says

If we cannot produce them, lets import them.

We are already producing an overabundance of them.

Strategist says

We are way behind in turning out STEM graduates when compared to China or India

And still producing more than our employers need.

Somehow we have better educated STEM people than other nations. Hillary is just trying to get more cheap labor available as always. Dems always sell it under the guise of humanitarism.

thunderlips11 says

CorporateClinton: Free Green Card for Every STEM Major

Another reason why I'll take that narcissistic idiot Trump over crooked Hillary any day. As bad as Trump is, Hillary is worse.

If imported STEM workers are needed so badly, the following conditions should be required by law.

1. The STEM worker and his or her entire family immediately get U.S. citizenship upon application approval. No visas or green cards. Citizenship for the entire family. The process of approving the import of a worker includes granting, not agreeing to grant but actually granting, U.S. citizenship to the worker and his or her entire family as defined by all the spouses, children, siblings, and parents living with and all the persons regardless of relation who are dependents of the worker.

2. The imported worker's salary must be at least 50% greater than the 80 percentile of domestic workers in the same STEM field. Standard STEM field lists will be provided. Companies cannot specify a STEM field. It will be picked based on the actual job being performed.

3. The corporation importing the worker must guarantee employment for five years with exceptions only for gross misconduct like committing crimes or not doing the job. If dismissed before one year, the corporation must still pay the remainder of the first year's salary.

I suspect, however, that under these conditions, especially number two, corporations will have no problem finding talent within the U.S. unless, of course, they can outsource the job altogether in which they would do that anyway instead of importing a worker.

Strategist says

We are way behind in turning out STEM graduates when compared to China or India.

Why do you think that is? Because a STEM peron's job can be offshored at any time and the older they egt , the less desirable they become-unlike other fields. What motivation will anyone have in studying STEM-at least IT.

Most of the research and IT started here-so it is not the lack of talent. WE need someone like Donald Trump who is America first-what is wrong in looking out for your self interest?

Until the average programmer is working 16 hour days for two bowls of rice and a hearty "fuck you," America will desperately need more H1Bs.

Dan8267 says

Another reason why I'll take that narcissistic idiot Trump over crooked Hillary any day.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/03/21/donald-trump-flip-flops-then-flips-and-flops-more-on-h-1b-visas/

Moderator Becky Quick: “You have been very critical of Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook who has wanted to increase the number of these H-1Bs.”

Trump: “I was not at all critical of him. I was not at all. In fact, frankly, he’s complaining about the fact that we’re losing some of the most talented people. They go to Harvard. They go to Yale. They go to Princeton. They come from another country, and they’re immediately sent out. I am all in favor of keeping these talented people here so they can go to work in Silicon Valley.”

Quick: “Are you in favor of H-1Bs or are you opposed to them?”

Trump: “I’m in favor of people coming into this country legally. And you know what? They can have it any way you want. You can call it visas, you can call it work permits, you can call it anything you want. … As far as the visas are concerned, if we need people, it’s fine. They have to come into this country legally. We have a country of borders. We have a country of laws. We have to obey the laws. It’s fine if they come in, but they have to come in legally.”

landtof says

LOL

Its amazing isn't it, you'd think parents send their kids to India for education in I.T.

This is for students seeking entry level jobs. Also, it will make all school positions even more competitive as CorporateHillary makes it even more likely foreign students will apply to U.S. Schools also

Remember, the computer revolution was overwhelmingly white nerds born in the USA

When the brainwashed parents wonder why their A student can't get a placement in a good school, they'll never think to blame the correct suspects.

U.S. Entry level "scarce" IT people don't even get tea wallahs.

Funny thing is all the democrat voting Asians will also wonder why Vietnamese or Nigerians on h1bs with degrees from shady ass fly by night "schools" land all the IT jobs 10 years from now instead of their us educated upper middle class kids

neplusultra57 says

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/03/21/donald-trump-flip-flops-then-flips-and-flops-more-on-h-1b-visas/

thunderlips11 says

thunderlips11 says

This is for students seeking entry level jobs. Also, it will make all school positions even more competitive as CorporateHillary makes it even more likely foreign students will apply to U.S. Schools also

Remember, the computer revolution was overwhelmingly white nerds born in the USA

When the brainwashed parents wonder why their A student can't get a placement in a good school, they'll never think to blame the correct suspects.

Already there was some furor at UC Berkeley about reduced number of in-staters getting into school in lieu of foreign students. Comes down to money. 30% of freshman class at UC Berkeley and UCLA

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-me-ln-uc-admit-20150702-story.html

thunderlips11 says

Its amazing isn't it, you'd think parents send their kids to India for education in I.T.

yeah it's ridiculous. although there is i think a correlation between the demise of public education here and the intent to seek cheap labor.

big business gave up on their native talent pool a long time ago presumably because it would one day be too expensive and margins would diminish. i have a different feeling about it in that they just grew a tremendous pair of balls and decided that people are dog shit and it would be so much more convenient and cheaper to mis-treat them on all fronts.

how to keep growing while the consumer base enjoys a giant corporate golden shower? DEBT INSTRUMENTS! YAY!

thunderlips11 says

Vietnamese or Nigerians on h1bs with degrees from shady ass fly by night "schools" land all the IT jobs 10 years from now instead of their us educated upper middle class kids

In all fairness, the US educated kids rarely want to do STEM and their h1-B parents, on average, strongly support this. They would much rather have their kids pursue medicine.

On another note, Vietnam has made major strides in the last 16 years...from 2200 students in 1999-2000 to over 16K last year

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/18/growth-from-asia-drives-surge-in-u-s-foreign-students/

FortWayne says

Somehow we have better educated STEM people than other nations

More than half of the graduate-level STEM students at US institutions come from other countries. So, if the US is graduating only the half that is US born, would that be enough to support the needs of employers?

zzyzzx says

We are already producing an overabundance of them.

If that is true, then graduate STEM programs in the US should reduce the number of slots by about 50% since that is the number of STEM degrees going to foreign born people (mostly India and China). Doubt that they will do that, especially given the fact that they are paying 2-3x more in tuition than in-state residents. Some of the blame should go to the bloated bureaucracies of these universities necessitating the import of students

While I don't currently believe that there is a shortage of STEM candidates, I'm not sure if that would be the case if the number of grads was slashed 50% across the board

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/18/growth-from-asia-drives-surge-in-u-s-foreign-students/

MMR says

graduate-level STEM

to write code, solve engineering problems, and grow the business? yeah right. the needs of employers would be served just fine by the bachelor's crowd.

Dan8267 says

Another reason why I'll take that narcissistic idiot Trump over crooked Hillary any day.

That’s understandable, especially if you are willing to trade support for: the Civil Rights Act, marriage equality, equality under law for both genders, first trimester abortions, requiring our government to take care of wounded soldiers, rights of transgender persons, the rights of those who paid into Social Security to withdrawal the savings they are entitled to, efforts to end the War On Drugs and the imprisonment of drug users. Yes, that’s your own list, as you surely recognize. And further: the role of money in corrupting politics; the perpetuation of gerrymandering and vote suppression; the use of torture and rendition; progressive taxation; any progress toward single-payer healthcare; the separation of church and state; rational gun control. The list of negatives attached to the Scarlet Whore of Wall Street is long. In your opinion, is it as long as the above?

neplusultra57 says

Civil Rights Act

Bernie Sanders has a long history of civil rights support. Hilary Clinton has done nothing but undermine civil rights. She's pro-torture and anti-habeas-corpus. She voted for the evil USA Patriot Act. Compared to her, Trump is MLK.

neplusultra57 says

marriage equality

It's the law of the land, so it doesn't matter anymore. But Hillary was strongly against marriage equality until the tide of popular opinion changed.

neplusultra57 says

equality under law for both genders

There's nothing either candidate is going to do about that.

neplusultra57 says

first trimester abortions

You can't get rid of first trimester abortions without overturning Roe v. Wade, something that conservatives have failed to do for over 40 years. And I doubt that's even going to be on Trump's agenda. He's pro-choice.

neplusultra57 says

requiring our government to take care of wounded soldiers

Again, Hilary has done shit to help that.

Same for the rest of the things you say especially, the war on drugs. Clinton has always been supportive of that.

neplusultra57 says

The list of negatives attached to the Scarlet Whore of Wall Street is long. In your opinion, is it as long as the above?

Trump never voted to torture people. That's a deal breaker. I could never vote for Hillary given that she's done that multiple times and has never changed her stance.

Trump is a lose cannon, but I'll take chaos over structured evil any day. If you don't want me to make that choice, convince the super delegates to vote for Bernie.

Dan8267 says

Hillary was strongly against marriage equality until the tide of popular opinion changed.

What's even worse is how she blatantly lies about her history on this, as if her First Lady, Senate campaign, and 2008 Pres Nomination Campaign videos aren't on youtube.

Yep, I choose Chaotic Good over Lawful Evil any day.

landtof says

the needs of employers would be served just fine by the bachelor's crowd.

There are 55,367 Bachelors Degrees handed out in Comp Sci annually and even about 10% of those guys would need an H1-B to continue in this country after graduating. Even if you added up all the grads from the last 16 years and assumed that all were still working in their field, that would still only be 460K slots filled.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d15/tables/dt15_322.10.asp?current=yes

There are 1.5 million slots in 2014 for Programmers, application Developers, systems developers and web developers combined.

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_102.htm

The reason why there isn't a shortage of STEM workers is because there are so many being imported. The group that is on the short end of the stick are US citizen developers who are over the age of 40. Ageism is horrible in the IT industry; Should have had a game plan to transition towards management.

I have a number of dumb idiot first cousins, once removed who are college age who are studying engineering and/or comp sci; none of those dummies has any clue about business whatsoever. They are nothing but future rank and file guys despite some going to schools as good as Cornell and Cooper Union. None of those guys have any interest in pursuing an MBA down the road at a top 25 school. By definition, each and every aspiring engineer in that cohort is a dumb idiot, with no clue about the future. Each of those idiots should have sucked it up and gotten into med school.

The first cousins once removed who went into medicine will almost certainly be better off and it won't even be close.

Furthermore, degree inflation isn't something that is specific to just the computer science related jobs. Most people who work at starbucks at least have some college under their belts. 25 years ago, they might have had high schoolers working there.

MMR says

Comp Sci

that's only one such degree. what about the other more general versions of "IT" and also the trade schools like ITT Tech? what about as you said the workers who were laid off during the last few busts and then never rehired due to the en vogue import agenda? we so have plenty of native workers here.

MMR says

None of those guys have any interest in pursuing an MBA down the road at a top 25 school.

they are actually quite astute as an MBA is the biggest waste of time and money outside of harvard or whatever equivalent. my take is that you may be too concerned with labels. some people honestly just want to do their jobs and not have to lie all day and treat others like shit, explain layoffs to guys with families, etc.

labels don't get you automatic tickets to the upper crust - politics are HUGE, and pure talent always rises.

Dan8267 says

I could never vote for Hillary........Trump is a lose cannon, but I'll take chaos over structured evil any day.

Dan8267, your six assessments of Clinton are accurate. She is obviously neither a ground breaking liberal nor a champion of existing liberal institutions. But your assessment of Trump as a threat to liberal progress is inadequate. He is on record exhorting advancing the intensity of torture. He hasn’t voted for it because he never had the chance. And on every other point you make, none of those can be considered “settled law” as long as the GOP exists. A vote for Trump is effectively a vote for three Scalias and decades of conservative Supreme Court bias. Think about that. It doesn’t matter if Trump is secretly pro-choice or if he will allow transgender Americans to be customers in his casinos and use his restrooms. It doesn’t matter if Trump supports wounded veterans if his Supreme Court allows gerrymandering and voter suppression such that a GOP House is able to choose its voters and continue to perpetuate Congressional dysfunction. It doesn’t matter what Trump thinks of Social Security and single payer healthcare or Planned Parenthood if the GOP retains the House and Senate. It doesn’t matter if currently neither candidate is “going to do” anything about gender equality under the law if both the Court and Congress are irretrievably conservative. It doesn't matter if Trump doesn't APPEAR to be as structured an evil as Clinton if his Court perpetuates Citizen's United, the SINGLE MOST PREDICATE FORCE OF THE ELITES. In the end, Trump is a threat to EVERY existing liberal institution while Clinton simply isn’t their champion. The difference is impossible to mitigate. Clinton is just a Republican with a uterus but there is every reason to think her nominees will turn the Court into a body that will countervail her evilness. Trump's Court, by contrast, will take us back to the 1950s because he is a pointless arbitrageur bordering on sociopathy who is perfectly willing to sacrifice modernity simply in order to be elected. If as a liberal you cannot in good conscience vote for Clinton the least you can do is write in Sanders.

neplusultra57 says

perfectly willing to sacrifice modernity simply in order to be elected.

This is the most telling bit of your rant. "Modernity" then to you must be 1) mass Muslim immigration and turning a blind eye to their campaign of hate against all others, 2)free trade where all production occurs outside the country and only consumption happens within, from some magic source of money, while oligarchs grow fat on the profits and rents, 3) social justice warriors attacking everyone who doesn't keep pace with the changing tide of activism, 4)thuggish "protests" that destroy property and injure citizens engaged in peaceful expression, 5)open borders policies that are eroding American cities and states ability to function, and 6)massive corruption in government as a way of life.
That's modern.
That's what we have.
That's why Trump.
Because most Americans don't agree that "modern" society is worth keeping.

thunderlips11 says

Yep, I choose Chaotic Good over Lawful Evil any day.

I'll choose chaotic evil over lawful evil any day. Lawful evil is far more dangerous because it has its shit together. Chaotic evil self-destructs and defeats itself at every turn.

neplusultra57 says

But your assessment of Trump as a threat to liberal progress is inadequate

Of course he's a threat, but Hillary is a greater threat and one with no upside. Trump has a few upsides:
1. He's wreck the Republican party. Even the Republican establishment wants him to lose. They much rather just obstruct the Hillary administration and blame everything on the Democrats.
2. Hillary losing will break the Democratic establishment by demonstrating the need to reform. Right now the establishment thinks it can count on every vote it gets just because people hate Republicans. This will force them to acknowledge that assumption is wrong.
3. In the long run, the reforms the Democratic defeat will ensure will do far more good than harm. The next 40 years is far more important than the next 4.
4. A Hillary defeat and a disastrous Trump administration will provide a far better seventh party system.

And I'm not the only person who's saying a seventh party system is starting.

The Seventh Party System: Trump Could Be the Catalyst

At one time or another, we’ve all endured the jaw-grinding, hair-pulling frustration of listening to some know-nothing right-winger accuse Democrats of being “the real racists” because they were the party of slavery and Jim Crow. They’re right about that fact, of course, though wildly wrong about the conclusion they draw from it.

Americans, children living in an eternal present that we are, have to exercise great force of will to recall that the way things are isn’t the way things have always been. Our political system has been dominated by the Democratic and Republican parties for so long—160 years—that one might easily, and mistakenly, assume they’ve represented the same two opposing forces of liberalism and conservatism for as long as they’ve existed. But as the nation has evolved, the parties have evolved with it, undergoing radical changes in the coalitions of voters and regions that have supported them and the issues that have divided them.

We live under what political scientists call the Sixth Party System of the United States, a system that has lasted longer than any of the U.S. party systems that came before it—yet another reason why we have a hard time comprehending that it has not always been thus. We’re due, possibly overdue, for the phase shift that brings us into the Seventh Party System. And the quasi-fascist candidacy of Donald Trump may be bringing us to the tipping point . . . which I’m not certain is a good thing.

The United States is due for a partisan realignment. Arguably overdue. And one of our major political parties has now rejected the principle of universal human rights. Straight-up rejected it.

A Seventh Party System – Why 2016 Could Mark the Next Electoral Shift

We should seriously consider whether 2016 could be the realignment election that the US is overdue for.

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

or maybe, it would be better to let in lots of smart creative immigrants.

If this was the case I would be for it. In reality what happens is that many low cost workers who are not smart are coming in to depress wages even though total corporate spending is going up. For example, a company like Cognizant will put dozens of low cost people on the project that could be done by two normal high cost consultants.

Dan8267 says

1. He's wreck the Republican party. Even the Republican establishment wants him to lose. They much rather just obstruct the Hillary administration and blame everything on the Democrats.

2. Hillary losing will break the Democratic establishment by demonstrating the need to reform. Right now the establishment thinks it can count on every vote it gets just because people hate Republicans. This will force them to acknowledge that assumption is wrong.

3. In the long run, the reforms the Democratic defeat will ensure will do far more good than harm. The next 40 years is far more important than the next 4.

4. A Hillary defeat and a disastrous Trump administration will provide a far better seventh party system.

You seem logical and systematic so I’ll try to be the same in order to your points:
1. He’s wrecking the GOP as we speak, whether elected or not; it’s all he’s good for. You needn’t make a single sacrifice to achieve this.
2. Sanders’ success to date demonstrates the need for reforming the Democratic Party and also the real possibility that it can be done by citizen money and not corporate money. Reform will come sooner if the corruption of corporate money in politics is reversed. Trump’s Court will prolong that corruption; Clinton’s Court will hasten its demise. If you can make a cogent argument that a Clinton loss will prove more instructive to voters than a very narrow Clinton victory please do so, but bear in mind it comes at a dramatic cost. That cost is allowing the most predicative power the establishment has to remain in place. Remember, your position advocates the establishment’s power source.
3. The reforms brought about by a Democratic defeat will be blocked for a majority of the 40 years you invoke simply by the formative power over the Court that the next 4 years holds. If you are thinking long term you need to adjust your focus. The Executive and Congress cannot vacate a SCOTUS ruling.
4. Why do you not even begin to consider the alternative of a Trump defeat and a disastrous Clinton administration? It could just as easily lead to reform of both Parties without the disastrous abyss of theocracy and conservatism swallowing the Court.
5. Finally, you and thunderlips11 are appalled by lawful evil. You should be. The quintessential example of that is Court sanctioned, codified evil and injustice. You and other erstwhile liberals pass over this time and again for more interesting and nuanced diversions into the failure of Clinton to uphold the purity of liberalism.
If truly you want reform, long lasting reform, you must use the next Presidential term to secure the Court. Only then can Party reform proceed on secure footing. That’s your fundamental error when combating lawful evil. Secondly, if you want medium-term Democratic Party reform you need to elect the Clinton Court in order to break the power of the establishment money in politics otherwise your only other option is violent revolt. That’s your strategic error. Lastly, if you want near-term reform you needn’t elect Trump to destroy the GOP. He’s well on the way to doing it without you. That’s your tactical error.

Thank you for mentioning A Seventh Party System. We'll get there sooner and in better shape if Sanders supporters make practical accommodations to the reality of our fucked up range of choices right now.

landtof says

during the last few busts and then never rehired due to the en vogue import agenda? we so have plenty of native workers here

I provided proof, where is yours? You mean to say there are 1.1 million native workers who can't get a job in the IT sector doing web development, programming, systems analyst, etc (not including database and networking jobs).

landtof says

None of those guys have any interest in pursuing an MBA down the road at a top 25 school.

they are actually quite astute as an MBA is the biggest waste of time and money

sure, you don't need an MBA to move into management, but ageism in IT isn't even remotely subtle and doesn't seem like anyone is apologetic for it either. Either way, those without a game plan to transition to management after age 40 might find themselves shit out of luck

landtof says

people honestly just want to do their jobs and not have to lie all day and treat others like shit, explain layoffs to guys with families, etc.

As stated above, if you're above 40, and working as a coder/back-end type of guy, that option may not be available to you(especially in a startup setting). What does it tell you when most of the imported help strongly discourages their own children from doing this as a career and pushes them into medicine instead?

Strategist says

We are way behind in turning out STEM graduates when compared to China or India

If they are so smart than why aren't they rich? Bullshit pretend third world country degrees which you can buy for a $50 bribe. That's not a tech degree.

On another note, if we import degrees, government will have no incentive to make education affordable for kids in America, they will have no reason to even make it worth anything. But if we don't import, government will be forced to suck it up and spend money on education instead of spending it on other various bullshit.

Dan8267 says

2. Hillary losing will break the Democratic establishment by demonstrating the need to reform. Right now the establishment thinks it can count on every vote it gets just because people hate Republicans. This will force them to acknowledge that assumption is wrong.

3. In the long run, the reforms the Democratic defeat will ensure will do far more good than harm. The next 40 years is far more important than the next 4.

Yup. The neoliberal Clintonistas are determined not to learn lessons from Trump or Bernie. Taibbi nailed this in his column. Or as the Upton Sinclair once said, ""It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it"

Those that DO understand are like "Please let this system continue, because I paid my dues for 20 years and I'm just about to cash out, please last a few more years."

I bet you the reason the Bernie-Hillary meeting failed as because she refused to make any progressive commitments that would displease her donor base, and therefore he refused to bow out.

FortWayne says

Strategist says

We are way behind in turning out STEM graduates when compared to China or India

If they are so smart than why aren't they rich? Bullshit pretend third world country degrees which you can buy for a $50 bribe. That's not a tech degree.

They started developing much later. If we let the current trend continue, they will be way ahead of us in a couple of generations. Being in denial does not help us.
All we need to do is steal their best brains, and it becomes ours.