patrick.net

FP says

How much have you received, effectively, from your husband? How much does raising your children cost?

FP, I know you mean well... and I don't want to take out my anger on you. But I'm in a serious mood, and it doesn't include humoring people who think that "first children" deserve a premium lifestyle over "second children."

The vast majority of our marriage, we were renters... Not by choice, but because the support obligations made savings very difficult. You understand that when a person pays 23% of gross in c/s, that amounts to roughly 40% of a person's take home pay, right? We moved from place to place as my husband chased jobs to afford his support payments. In 14 years of marriage, we moved six times for jobs. My children have been to four different elementary schools. They have no neighborhood they identify as "their home." Our attempt to buy a house in Atlanta was met with an immediate lawsuit alleging that we were hiding money. We fell behind on our mortgage payments paying for those legal fees to fight her erroneous claims. We ended up having to borrow money from my husband's parents in order to get straight. We went periods of time without health insurance while we paid for the other kids to have health insurance. I assure you, my kids have never had the kind of money available to them that she had for her children. They grew up in one house... went to the same schools... We didn't own a house again until Nov. 2014. But you know what, we didn't really care about that. We just asked not to be hassled in the process. But she couldn't give us that.

Down.... Up.... Just got an email from The Doctors. They want us back on the show. Okay, good things... It's not all bad. Snap out of this... Hit the reset button. You can do it..

turtledove says

She just didn't realize that by doing that, we can no longer pay her directly, verified both with an attorney and DCS

Sounds like a rookie mistake for a long-time attorney.

MMR says

Sounds like a rookie mistake for a long-time attorney.

She never really practiced. She liked wearing the law school t-shirt more than being a practicing lawyer. She didn't work as a lawyer until maybe 8 years ago. A good 10 years after going to law school. She had multiple jobs for the first few years because she couldn't find a place where she liked to work... and then she decided to hang up her own shingle. So, she is pretty inexperienced. Her inexperience was well earned.

turtledove says

She always was. I just wanted it to be done. I worked for it. I earned it. But it doesn't matter. Parole denied.

She's not going to get anywhere near what she hoped for in cash flow and it seems like your cashflow will be relatively unharmed. Certainly less than making a 33k lump-sum payment.

turtledove says

She never really practiced

Certainly sounds like it. Talking to seasoned attorneys, they all seem to say that students who have graduated law school and passed bar still don't know enough law to be really effective for more than one year on job

turtledove says

FP, I know you mean well... and I don't want to take out my anger on you. But I'm in a serious mood, and it doesn't include humoring people who think that "first children" deserve a premium lifestyle over "second children."

Hey, I'm just playing devil's advocate. Don't take me too seriously.

BTW, my impressions from relatives is that the second set of children usually get the more luxurious lifestyle. That's because they are born when the father has already established career. When you marry an older guy with an established career you avoid the early lean years of struggle (medical school, residence, etc), but there is a price - the baggage he carries. C'est la vie

If I were you, I'd leave it to your husband to deal with problem.

I'm telling ya the 100' policy is there for a reason.

FP says

BTW, my impressions from relatives is that the second set of children usually get the more luxurious lifestyle. That's because they are born when the father has already established career. When you marry an older guy with an established career you avoid the early lean years of struggle (medical school, residence, etc), but there is a price - the baggage he carries. C'est la vie

The guy marries his high school sweetheart. She waits tables while he goes to college and graduate school. She works in his office while he's setting up shop. Then, she finally gets to have some kids and be a stay at home mom. They buy the dream house. She's finally made it. Then, he runs off with the 20 year old secretary, puts all his assets in his girlfriend's name, claims he has no money, and ex-wife and kids end up living hand-to-mouth in a roach infested apartment in Compton.

Maybe at some point in history this was the case, but it hasn't been this way in a long time. Most of the people I know who go through a divorce, the guy ends up in the apartment living hand to mouth... and any increase in salary immediately triggers a recalculation of child support... So, he can never earn his way out of it. The worst part is, the child support has nothing to do with the needs of the children. It's this arbitrary calculation based on percentages of incomes... as if the cost of a loaf of bread increases alongside one's salary... So, what's happening is that alimony is being flown under the flag of child support. Remember, alimony has a very different tax treatment. With c/s, the guy pays the taxes on the money... with alimony, the ex-wife pays the taxes as if it were income. When you cheat and inflate c/s to cover alimony, she's getting some serious tax free income. This is an especially difficult problem for professionals because not complying can result in loss of licensure and you are always trackable based on your license... They are the hardest hit. The super rich can hire lawyers that can make things impossible on the ex... The super poor can just disappear. The rest of us get screwed.

FP says

If I were you, I'd leave it to your husband to deal with problem.

If only I could... About eight years ago, our lawyer instructed that my husband isn't allowed to send emails/letters/texts without my approval. My husband sometimes says things that get him in trouble. I'm better at seeing all communications as potential exhibits in a courtroom, and therefore present those communications as such from the get-go.

Interesting. Looks like my observations do not apply to the US. Here very few in my circle are divorced. One of the few cases- a close friend whose wife left him did not ask for the house or alimony, even though she has meager income, only for modest child support. He sends her extra payments sometimes out of concern for her; she is the mother of his children afteer all.

FP says

Interesting. Looks like my observations do not apply to the US. Here very few in my circle are divorced. One of the few cases- a close friend whose wife left him did not ask for the house or alimony, even though she has meager income, only for modest child support. He sends her extra payments sometimes out of concern for her; she is the other of his children after all.

I've never been against supporting the children. The reason we didn't take her back when the oldest aged out (you'd think the recalculation would be automatic, but not in Georgia... You have to get a new order) was because I knew that his ex would fight it. We'd end up spending everyone's college money on lawyers. So, we continued to pay for two kids when there was only one kid in the house. Supporting the kids never bothered me. Her making my life a living hell. That bothered me. Her doing the kinds of things she's doing right now are what bothered me. I don't begrudge the kids. But it's a little upsetting when you're struggling to pay her... She and her husband decide to start their own businesses... and we hear from the kids that they are also remodeling a bathroom. WTH! Child support is supposed to be for the care of the children... It's not supposed to support adults who want to start their own businesses and leave enough left over to put subway tile in the bathroom cuz they always thought that would look better. It's those kinds of things that make me question the calculation.

Dan8267 says

It is worth noting that the injustices of the family court system are the primary reason that men largely refuse to marry in our society today.

Isn't this story more of a reason not to have kids than to not marry?

zzyzzx says

Isn't this story more of a reason not to have kids than to not marry?

Or at least, have them through a surrogate and IVF with an egg donor. Then the kids are all yours... and no one can use them against you to extort cash. You can raise them as you see fit. Since I do this for a living... Just let me know who's interested. I'll create a Patnet discount.

Sorry TD that you're having this rough time, and thanks for sharing about why you're so upset. There is no understanding that kind of dysfunction. Maybe the husband is a factor (a prick). He has enjoyed that income stream too. When it slowed down, maybe he hounded her with, "what's up ?" "Why do you trust them ?" "Why do you believe they will pay in September ?" Or maybe it is all her, and she really is THAT dysfunctional or for some sick psychological reason not able to resist a little more drama as you said, before it's over. Or maybe she's a stupid asshole of an attorney and she thinks she's using her tools. Who cares what the reason is ?

It's too easy to say, but this too shall pass. It just prolonged the BS a little.

If you stay upset, then the terrorists win.

zzyzzx says

Dan8267 says

It is worth noting that the injustices of the family court system are the primary reason that men largely refuse to marry in our society today.

Isn't this story more of a reason not to have kids than to not marry?

The injustices of the family court system goes far beyond indenture servitude and applies to childless husbands as well. Two generations of men have seen men being abused severely by the family court system and have adjusted their world views accordingly.

Marcus does have a point.

It is ALWAYS the 3rd party, it is not who you think it is.

Dan8267 says

The injustices of the family court system goes far beyond indenture servitude and applies to childless husbands as well. Two generations of men have seen men being abused severely by the family court system and have adjusted their world views accordingly.

I wasn't saying that isn't an issue, but these days isn't child support usually way more onerous than alimony?

turtledove says

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with her?

She is jealous. I'm sure you are prettier.

marcus says

Maybe the husband is a factor (a prick). He has enjoyed that income stream too. When it slowed down, maybe he hounded her with, "what's up ?" "Why do you trust them ?" "Why do you believe they will pay in September ?" Or maybe it is all her, and she really is THAT dysfunctional or for some sick psychological reason not able to resist a little more drama as you said, before it's over. Or maybe she's a stupid asshole of an attorney and she thinks she's using her tools. Who cares what the reason is ?

Her current husband has actually always been a temporizing influence. Or else he's a genius at putting on a show for the kids. They've told us stories of their mom going off about something regarding my husband and the new husband talking her down. Lots of things got better after they were married. The email abuse stopped... She didn't have an attorney write a letter for any little thing she could think of (we got a letter because we let their son see Spiderman... I think it was PG-13 and he was 12, maybe; another letter because I let their son swim in a pool when he had a little cut on his foot --- not a special cut, a regular, normal, little cut that was so insignificant that he didn't even mention it to me; another letter because I asked her son to walk the dog and had him bring a "pick up bag" with him -- how dare I make her son pick up poop). That kind of stuff all stopped after she remarried. She wasn't ever pleasant to us, but the unprovoked harassment stopped.

In the early days, I would be super nice... Figuring that she'd eventually grow out of it... and I didn't want to say or do anything that I'd have to apologize for later. She said something like, "don't even bother being nice. you and I will NEVER be friends." And she was true to her words.

I never understood her anger at everyone. She was the one who wanted the divorce. She was the one who kicked him out. He had been living in the basement the last year that they lived together. They had been fully separated for several months before he and I met. She really just didn't want him to be happy. The very idea that he would move on really bothered her, I think. In retrospect, I suppose we could have waited to start dating until the divorce was final... But it's not like she wanted him back. She, too, was seeing someone during their separation. The guy she's married to, now, in fact. So, I really don't know. But she hates me and makes no bones about it.

A few years ago, her son asked me what happened when his parents got divorced. Not being born yesterday, I replied, "What did your mother tell you happened." He said, "I want to hear your version." So, I told him the same story I just told you. He said that's exactly what she said. So, it's not like my version of events is even different than hers. I don't get it. I never did and I never will.

Sadly, it her. All her.

turtledove says

Sadly, it her. All her.

Nope, there is somebody else at work here.

Strategist says

She is jealous. I'm sure you are prettier.

Obligatory:
/?p=1291942&c=1309072#comment-1309072

indigenous says

Nope, there is somebody else at work here.

The only other person could be her little lawyer friend who wrote the demand letter. Maybe she's encouraging her... And they are trying to impress each other with their badass lawyer skills. But based on the past, my husband's ex didn't require any encouragement to spew evil. Our mere presence at one of the kids' activities was all it took.

One thing that's weird is she was very secretive about her finances to her current husband. She didn't want him to know her debt situation and she didn't want him to know the details of the support agreement. This was back when they were first married (2006). We only know this because when we went back for the reduction based on the new law (2008), she freaked out when we put him on the deposition list... As if she hadn't put me on the deposition list a hundred times... She really didn't want him involved. Like she was hiding things from him. Maybe she's just desperate for the money because her husband is about to find out how badly she screwed up. $100k in credit card debt would be hard for anyone to pay off.

zzyzzx says

Strategist says

She is jealous. I'm sure you are prettier.

Obligatory:

/?p=1291942&c=1309072#comment-1309072

Hey, maybe she saw Turtle's boobs and went into a jealous rage.

turtledove says

The only other person

I don't know who, only that there is a who.

The other thing that makes these situation particularly fun is when they are withholding something. This is when a person over reacts to an statement or allegation.

I'm sure you are right about her having withholds.

But the thing that really puts the stank on the situation is the 3rd party. Keep in mind that this is the very mechanism that cause war.

Strategist says

Hey, maybe she saw Turtle's boobs and went into a jealous rage.

OMG, I totally forgot about this. This woman is such a freak. When she first met me, it was at their son's basketball game. I had to leave early for something. So, I'm walking out to my car and she comes running up behind me and introduces herself. I was wearing a sleeveless, stretchy fuschia turtleneck, jeans, and a hoodie jacket that was unzipped. I swear on my kids this is a true story. She pulls open one side of the hoodie and says, "Of course, you have bigger breasts." I had completely forgotten about that until I read your post. How weird was that? First off, she's super flat chested, so pretty much most of society has larger breasts than she does. You'd think she'd have accepted that by then. But what a completely strange thing to say... And even if you were thinking it, why would you want to admit that to your ex-husband's new girlfriend?

turtledove says

First off, she's super flat chested, so pretty much most of society has larger breasts than she does. You'd think she'd have accepted that by then. But what a completely strange thing to say... And even if you were thinking it, why would you want to admit that to your ex-husband's new girlfriend?

We need to somehow get your topless picture to her, just to piss her off.

That sucks. Men have been getting fucked over in most Western nations for many years now. Voting left has consequences. Without women and (il)legal immigrants today's deranged left would not win a single election. It's the difference between the emotional and logical brain (of course as always with exceptions proving the rule):
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0097071

TD- When she gets you down remember how many years you have acted with conscience and conviction in the face unfairness and injustice, and be proud of yourself. Also remember that despite her advantage she is in despair while you have met the injustice and transcended her. Her pettiness has delayed your inner schedule, that's all. If you persevered back when there was so much more crap ahead of you than behind you, then now, this latest slip of the blade.......well, you're already beyond it even if it doesn't feel that way. She so identifies with the battle that its approaching end terrifies her. You've won.

At just the right time send her a "Get Well" card or some token of spurious pity. She'll get the message, and it will haunt her. Then leave her on the trail and get on with it.

I think a TD/ex-wife naked mud wrestling bout would resolve this case, to be broadcast on Patnet if Trump is elected.

Hey, I can always dream!

@NPU

This is not a contest.

For the 3rd time there is always a 3rd party.

The sun may or may not come up tommorow. ..

A life lesson that serves well to anyone who is aware of it.

Strategist says

zzyzzx says

Strategist says

She is jealous. I'm sure you are prettier.

Obligatory:


/?p=1291942&c=1309072#comment-1309072

Hey, maybe she saw Turtle's boobs and went into a jealous rage.

I know I did

indigenous says

For the 3rd time there is always a 3rd party.

Are you trying to say that the ex is schtooping the pool boy and needs the money to provide for his allowance?

YesYNot says

Are you trying to say that the ex is schtooping the pool boy and needs the money to provide for his allowance?

Maybe but that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

Think of it this way, everyone goes on endlessly about the middle east with an endless list of instigators. The main stream NEVER talks about Saudi Arabia, yet they cause 99% of the trouble.

indigenous says

For the 3rd time there is always a 3rd party.

Uh huh. The FED you mean?

neplusultra57 says

Uh huh. The FED you mean?

Not universally, they sure as fuck finance war though.

The rule though is a 3rd party, in the middle east it sure as fuck is Saudi Arabia. In the case of divorce it is usually the mother exacerbated by the lawyers, or the neighbor or the "good friend" or the shrink or or or

neplusultra57 says

TD- When she gets you down remember how many years you have acted with conscience and conviction in the face unfairness and injustice, and be proud of yourself. Also remember that despite her advantage she is in despair while you have met the injustice and transcended her. Her pettiness has delayed your inner schedule, that's all. If you persevered back when there was so much more crap ahead of you than behind you, then now, this latest slip of the blade.......well, you're already beyond it even if it doesn't feel that way. She so identifies with the battle that its approaching end terrifies her. You've won.

She is a miserable person. She always has been. I know this. She's very insecure. I say I don't know why she was so nasty, but I kind of do. We're all just being honest here right? I don't mean this in any way other than exactly as the words appear on your screen. Not braggy or spiteful... Just as factual as my subjective interpretation of events can allow.

1) My husband had the audacity to move on. Whether that was reasonable or not, I think it really just bugged her. He was supposed to be miserable to serve some kind of penance for not making her happy during their marriage. In fact, she actually used the word "penance" when describing to their oldest son why she was so mean to his father. So the woman had anger issues that ran pretty deep. I thought that those anger issues would lessen with time like it tends to with most people... But with each year that went by, I'd find that they were still going strong.

2) It started off the minute she first saw me. Yes, I'm regarded by most people as attractive. I've always been the pretty, fun, smart, girl that most people were drawn to (girls and boys). She, on the other hand, is average, at best. Her insecurity is written all over her face. She doesn't look like she ever has fun. My smiles come pretty easily. And how can we forget the breasts comment, however completely insane that may have been?.... But it goes to show that she was measuring herself up against me instantly. Throughout the years, as I've seen a few pictures of her with the kids (vacation, graduation, that kind of stuff), she never looks happy. Her smiles look forced. When the kids would bring back pictures of their time with us, these would be very different. Like I said, I'm kind of fun. I love to laugh, laugh lines be damned, my smiles cover my whole face. You put all this together, and I think all this played a big role in why my very existence seemed to piss her off so much.

3) I am younger than she is. She was actually older than my husband by two years. So that made her eight years older than I. Even though I can't imagine eight years being that big of a deal... when you have a person who is already an insecure mess, I guess I can see how that might deepen the insecurity.

4) Their two kids, really liked me right away. (See point #1). I'm fun. I like to have fun. I like to laugh and do fun things. I'm pretty easy going about stuff. I'll pick up out of nowhere and go do something cool. Before I had my own kids, my knowledge of every movie ever made was almost encyclopedic... I was an ex-gymnast, and I could still do a bunch of things... so the little girl and I would actually play. I taught her how to do cartwheels, front and back walkovers.... we'd make up routines... I taught her real cheers from my cheerleading days. I was fun. Her kids loved me right away. This was an unforgivable move on my part.

5) She was pretty sure that my husband and I wouldn't last five years. I got a nasty email from her sister (how weird is that? I would never write a nasty email to my brother's ex on his behalf, but whatever, we've already established that they do weird things). The purpose of the email was to inform me of what a horrible husband my husband was to her sister. How he made her feel bad all the time.... The thing that struck me was when she said that she didn't give our marriage five years. Well, we've been married now almost 15 years. They have been divorced much longer than they were ever married and she never wanted to believe that any of what went wrong was her fault. But the fact that we've now been married for so long means that maybe their divorce wasn't really ALL my husband's fault. I think that bothers her, too.

So, yes... She is an unhappy person. As I put up with her garbage over the years, I was always able to focus on the end. I know that the best revenge is living well. But the end of the official arrangement was important to me, too. The risk that the official arrangement might be extended because she's a miserable human being who wants everyone to feel as bad as she does won't turn out the way she thinks. Okay, I'm upset now... but I don't tend to stay upset for long. It's not in my nature. In the end, it will be for nothing. But it would have been nice for me to have it be officially over.

As for the card... As part of the demand letter, we are not to contact her... This is where she pretends that we like to harass her. More fun irony! But the card would be a violation of that... So no can do.

Ceffer says

think a TD/ex-wife naked mud wrestling bout would resolve this case, to be broadcast on Patnet if Trump is elected.

She didn't age well. She's gained a lot of weight over the last several years. Not fat-fat, but definitely a "lose 30 type." And she's losing her hair of all things... So... First, she'd crush me. Second, you'd have to rip your eyes out afterward.

That's a lot of words. How about a nice ass pic, to lighten the mood?

Sorry for your troubles TD, I hope things turn around soon! I have a feeling that they will.
My *unsolicited* advice: get engrossed in a project that will keep you in a "moving forward" direction whilst taking your mind off impossible people like his ex.