patrick.net

This thread just got more interesting lol

zzyzzx says

That is not an authorized hairstyle.

zzyzzx says

God bless yoga pants.

zzyzzx says

Horrible photochop.

looks like the women above know how to handle their guns

Ironman says

@BayArea

So, did you make a final decision on your new toy?

Yes, will most likely be a Glock 17 - 9mm. Admittedly, I need to get more familiar with CA gun laws before I pull the trigger on the purchase (no pun intended).

I'm in Bakersfield, CA for the weekend and heading to their gun convention today at their fairgrounds.

NuttBoxer says

In the close quarters of a home(the main scenario we seem to be discussing), I think FW's statement holds up. My only concern with a longer gun is maneuvering through the house, and having a perp grab the barrel as you step around a corner. On the plus side, the sound of a shotgun being pumped usually scares the shit out of most invaders.

The sound of a shotgun cocking, for a determined attacker, is not effective. The police can use it in 'semi-polite' company to get attention, but a determined attacker doesn't care. It's no greater fear inducing than an alarm or shouting, "Get out of my house! I've got a gun.". You can clickity-clack the slide there if you like for punctuation. So, shotgun noise effect rates very low on a reason scale, for the shotgun.

A shotgun loaded with a slug at 30ft has no advantage over a pistol. Now loaded with something like birdshot, at 30, you do have to aim but it is way more forgiving. But now we are talking bird shot stopping power. Is are attacker a drug laden zombie ready to eat face? If so, we have just made a trade off. Again, it all depends on what we are fending off. Someone calculating and hell bent on killing you ... specifically ... will. You would need professional 24/7 security to stop that threat.

Admittedly, I need to get more familiar with CA gun laws before I pull the trigger on the purchase (no pun intended).

Very smart. Those grabbing firearms for every bump in the night, in CA, are in for a rude awakening. Also, for home defense, see what you can do to increase your detection and the 'game of seconds'. Seconds between you and attacker are really where the fight is won and lost over. It isn't really a question of calibers and firearm types at all. Those that really think that are compensating for something, dumb, or both.

Caliber/platform aside, it's very tricky if you can't carry on your body and have kids. "Self defense" implies instantaneos access, and that's at odds with irresponsible yet super curious and inventive little people in the household. In a "shall issue" state you could carry on your body at all times, including in the house. Otherwise, routinely moving it to/from safe each time you come/leave home is too error prone, and mistakes are costly. Besides, in some places (i.e. professional part of Bay Area) there are sever social penalties for being labeled a "gun nut". This may be hard to avoid if you need to go through this "arm/disarm" drill several times a day. Something would eventually leak this little habit.
There are companies that try to solve it by making creative hiding places, but that's not good enough IMHO. I personally haven't figured it out for myself. Lifestyle optimization function just told me to not use "this" right for "this" purpose and seek alternative solutions.

Edit: if my wife wanted it for herself, that would've been a different story for a variety of reasons. She doesn't want it for herself though.

I'm also on the fence whether to pick up a pump vs a semi-auto 12 gauge shotgun.

The pump is cool and cheap, but the semi is hassle free (3x the cost ugh).

Ironman, own any shotguns? What do you recommend?

870 is what I'm looking at...

Do you find that the shorter barrel of the tactical results in any accuracy compromises at the range?

I cant say which are good, but I've seen TONS of different gun locks that are either fingerprint, RFID, or key/code locked. Some locks fit in the trigger area, preventing it from firing until you enter the code and remove the lock, so you can essentially leave the gun on the table safely because nobody can fire it. Other locks sometimes mount to tables, like your night stand next to your bed, and again, need a key/code entered to release the gun and make firing possible.

Some are listed here,
http://gundigest.com/concealed-carry/gallery-10-great-fast-access-gun-safes-home-defense/nggallery/image/gun-vault-speed-vault-0pen_b/
http://www.officer.com/directory/firearm-accessories/gun-locks-safety-devices

Ironman says

I was talking about the rifle, you pigs.... get your minds out of the gutter...

Of course with that camouflage on the only thing I can make out is the gun.

If I get a pump it'll be an 870

If I end up getting a semi, it'll probably be an M2

Ironman says

That's why the handgun is my number one choice. Even if the intruder gets right on top you, you can still squeeze off rounds at point blank range. You won't be able to do that with a long gun without a lot of training.

Too funny. The small dick brigade is out in force today. So how many intruder break ins with someone home that got physically attacked were there in ocean county last year? You're much more likely to shoot off your dick than an intruder. But that would assume you are a really great shot to hit such a small target.

@BayArea, I'm curious how a cost benefit analysis lead you to shop guns. What are your odds of being the victim of a home invasion? How much does being armed improve your chances in such an event?

loud dogs, movement detection lighting, and a home security system is pretty much all you need.
99% of intruders arn't going to take on all 3.

errc says

@BayArea, I'm curious how a cost benefit analysis lead you to shop guns. What are your odds of being the victim of a home invasion? How much does being armed improve your chances in such an event?

errc, I started this thread from a home-defense angle but I should be more complete in my position.

As I started off this thread, I never was too fond of guns for the first 35yrs of my life. I grew up in the East Bay, went to HS in Berkeley, and graduated from a liberal university (UC). So most of my life I've been influenced by a majority here in CA that doesn't take a favorable view on guns. During elections, the gun topic goes into overdrive. And certainly this election was no different.

One of my good friends, who is a Republican and owns several firearms offered to take me shooting last year. And I found it very interesting and frankly, quite fun. I also have an engineering degree. Once you get into bullet ballistics and kinetic energy of various cartridges, it gets even more interesting.

So again, although the angle was initially home defense, I guess I just enjoy going to the range and find guns to be an enjoyable alternate hobby to building cars, which I just don't have time for anymore these days due to the family and a demanding job.

Back to defense: I understand that most people will never experience home invasion in their lifetime, but it's still something I consider as a possibility. Some people choose a dog or an alarm system. My approach doesn't really consider cost-benefit analysis because to me shooting has a hobby element, and the alarm system doesn't. Therefore it's a tough comparison.

(cont)

I will say one thing that weighs on me is firearm security vs accessibility. With a family, you want to be able to get to your firearm quickly. But with small kids in the house you need to be sure they don't have access. Not easy because there's a tug-o-war between the two.

Also, I think it was pointed out above, but gun-owners should practice shooting and handling their firearm regularly. Guns are far too dangerous of a tool to own if you aren't totally comfortable operating them and get periodic practice.

And Ironman, after some more research I'm leaning towards the Glock19 and the Binelli M2 Tactical.

Lastly, a friendly note to liberals: Please learn the difference between a semi-automatic and a fully-automatic before engaging in gun debates. I see the terms misused constantly. And recognize that "fully semi-automatic" is a spoof term.

zzyzzx says

I also like the Ruger Scout rifles.

Pulled the trigger and got a CZ 75 sp01, Have a great local gun club/range that I'm joining 3-4 miles from my house, I enjoy shooting it for target practice, and I'm not 100% sure if I'll be using it as home defense, more likely protection if a horrible earthquake or something happens and shit hits the fan.

BayArea says

Back to defense: I understand that most people will never experience home invasion in their lifetime, but it's still something I consider as a possibility. Some people choose a dog or an alarm system. My approach doesn't really consider cost-benefit analysis because to me shooting has a hobby element, and the alarm system doesn't. Therefore it's a tough comparison.

So how many "home invasions" with people at home in your area in the last 5 years? If you want to go out shooting then have a blast, I used to shoot a lot and it's fun. But don't try to wrap into some kind of home defence against an almost non existent threat as a justification.

There are an average of 100 burglary homicides a year. There are an average of 265,000 burglary assaults a year, with 65% the burglar was know to the victim. So there are about 93,000 burglary assaults a year by a stranger. Mostly in crummy neighbourhoods. Out of 330 million people. Not very much of a possibility if you don't live in the ghetto.

Victimization During Household Burglary - Bureau of Justice Statistics-Department of Justice
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vdhb.pdf

Ironman says

Nice way to be dishonest bobby... Did you actually READ the link that you posted???

• An estimated 3.7 million burglaries occurred each year on

average from 2003 to 2007.

Also, they didn't post stats since 2007, so I would bet that number is even higher now with the effect of the Great Recession and people having a tougher time..

Try to keep up with the topic. The entire thread is about having a gun for home defence. You somehow don't understand that you can't shoot someone invading your home when you are not home?

I went to take the Firearm Safety Test today, scored 30/30, and got my certificate.

Took all of 15min. That was easier than I expected here in CA.

Ironman says

BayArea says

and got my certificate.

So, when is the new addition coming home?

I'm still deciding on the hardware. Each time I read and do followup research, I find myself changing what I want.

Front runner now is Glock19 as a first handgun. And what gun enthusiast can go without a Remington 870?

Open to more suggestions and reasoning too

Will probably be making the purchase in the next month or two.

Glock 19 is a great starting point.

Ironman says

BayArea says

Front runner now is Glock19 as a first handgun.

Just make sure you are really happy with that (lack of) mechanical safety. That's the reason I've stayed away from Glocks. Not for me, but for people I take with me to the range who aren't as educated.

BayArea says

Remington 870?

For a shotgun, great choice.

I would also consider a carbine in either 9mm or 40 as an alternate. I actually like my .40 carbine better than my 223 AR's.

Thanks for the input.

I shot a Mini-14 (223) last weekend which is technically a carbine. Also got to shoot an AR15. Both were great, i shot much better with the AR15.

Everyone is telling me that the G19 is a great start for a handgun. Still like the Sig P229 however.

BayArea says

Thanks for the input.

I shot a Mini-14 (223) last weekend which is technically a carbine. Also got to shoot an AR15. Both were great, i shot much better with the AR15.

I own a few Ruger products but I will never own a Mini-14. The earlier model's rifling rates were too slow to properly stabilize the heavier grain .223 Remington rounds. The Mini-14 was designed for the lighter loads in the 45 grain size. Keep in mind too that some older guns chambered in the .223 are not designed to safely handle the 5.56x45 loads. The 5.56x45 produces higher pressures and can damage older .223 firearms. I doubt you will see that problem today because everything new that I see in the .223/5.56x45 caliber are designed to use either round.

I agree with you on the AR-15. The modular design opens up so many options. The AR-15 is the gun world's open source standard. I also like that the standard iron sights are optimized for having a "good" zero from 25 yards to 300 yards without making any elevation adjustments. You can also put different sized uppers on the receivers to fire many different calibers. I have seen 9mm, .45 ACP, 300 blackout, .22 LR, .50 Beowulf, and .450 Bushmaster all fired from the same gun just by swapping the uppers. As an added bonus, you can use a standard 5.56x45 magazine to hold the 300 Blackout, .450 Bushmaster and .50 Beowulf calibers. I have seen a .50 BMG bolt action upper that will fit any standard AR-15 lower. Good luck coming up with the money to feed it. The guy said .

I am "old school" when it comes to handguns. My preferred handgun is the 1911.

Thanks for the input, open source lingo for the AR, I like that!

thenuttyneutron says

My preferred handgun is the 1911.

Why is this?

BayArea says

Thanks for the input, open source lingo for the AR, I like that!

thenuttyneutron says

My preferred handgun is the 1911.

Why is this?

The 1911 is a semi-auto pistol designed by John Browning and was used by the US military from 1911 until 1986. My grandfather flew the A-20 in WW2 and this was his sidearm. He always spoke fondly of it. It is chambered in .45 ACP, which is a caliber with a proven track record. I have also seen .380 versions.

The reason I use it is simple.... it works. It has been out for over a century and there are many parts available for it. I love the single action operation, the ease of trigger pull and how well it is balanced to allow for fast follow up shots. There are many manufactures of it as well. You can get the cheap Rock Island version for about $450 used or go with the Kimber for a lot more. Like the AR-15, this gun is also "open source".