patrick.net

Strategist says

The Koran has been the driving force for the last 1400 years. The West did nothing wrong. We believe in equal rights, freedoms, and democracy. Compare that to the Sharia laws, and what the perfect Muslim, Mohammad believed in.

That is not the history of the West. That is the claims it makes now whilst simultaneously exerting its power over the rest of the world.

Strategist says

Thank God. So ami I. Why would an atheist go to such lengths to support the actions of Mohammad the Perfect Muslim?

I'm not defending anything. I'm pointing out the problems with the stupidly one-sided and wilfully ignorant views that you and others regularly peddle on this site. You are trying to boil down a massively complex situation to the most simplistic of narratives. It doesn't help move things forward.

Rashomon says

Strategist says

The Koran has been the driving force for the last 1400 years. The West did nothing wrong. We believe in equal rights, freedoms, and democracy. Compare that to the Sharia laws, and what the perfect Muslim, Mohammad believed in.

That is not the history of the West. That is the claims it makes now whilst simultaneously exerting its power over the rest of the world.

Nothing wrong with exerting your power if it's for the common good. Democracy is the future of the world. When was the last time you saw a democracy attack another democracy? Communists attack each other, religions attack each other, but not democracies. The path to peace lies through the roads of democracy.

Rashomon says

Strategist says

Thank God. So ami I. Why would an atheist go to such lengths to support the actions of Mohammad the Perfect Muslim?

I'm not defending anything. I'm pointing out the problems with the stupidly one-sided and wilfully ignorant views that you and others regularly peddle on this site. You are trying to boil down a massively complex situation to the most simplistic of narratives. It doesn't help move things forward.

Peace is not complex. Violent people make it complex. If all Muslims were Buddhists, we would not have any problems at all.
As an atheist you should be convincing Muslims to be peaceful, not trying to convince us that Islam is peaceful, when all we see is Islamic violence.

Strategist says

If all Muslims were Buddhists, we would not have any problems at all.

Nonsense. What do you think's been happening in Myanmar? Religion isn't the problem. People and circumstances are.
Strategist says

As an atheist you should be convincing Muslims to be peaceful, not trying to convince us that Islam is peaceful, when all we see is Islamic violence.

Clearly I'm not going to convince you of anything. Religion is the current tool of those trying to wheel power and influence. If that wasn't to hand, it would be something else.

Rashomon says

Strategist says

If all Muslims were Buddhists, we would not have any problems at all.

Nonsense. What do you think's been happening in Myanmar? Religion isn't the problem. People and circumstances are.

How can you as an atheist state religion is not a problem? Are you sure you are an atheist?
Let me ask you a question....Do you think Mohammad the Perfect Muslim was a moral person?
If you are an atheist, you will not have a problem answering that.

Strategist says

Nothing wrong with exerting your power if it's for the common good. Democracy is the future of the world. When was the last time you saw a democracy attack another democracy? Communists attack each other, religions attack each other, but not democracies. The path to peace lies through the roads of democracy.

No, it doesn't. There's nothing to democracy that makes it intrinsically peaceful. Peace has been maintained through a labyrinthian set of apparatus to try and keep the powers in check. That doesn't mean it's always going to be so. The cracks have long since started appearing. Just look at all those crowing about Brexit and wanting the break up of the EU on here. That very organisation has contributed greatly to a period of peace in one of the most unstable regions in the world historically. Who's to say such instability won't return? In fact, it's almost a guarantee once global warming destroys society as we currently know it.

Strategist says

How can you as an atheist state religion is not a problem? Are you sure you are an atheist?

Because it's clearly people and circumstances that are the real problems. Look at the Germans now. Look at them in the 1930s and 40s. People are capable of doing pretty much anything imaginable with or without any particular religion supposedly guiding them. We are apes. Nothing more, nothing less. We are more than capable of the basest of actions given the right (wrong) circumstances.

Rashomon says

No, it doesn't. There's nothing to democracy that makes it intrinsically peaceful.

Ever seen a major democracy attack each other? They solve their problems through negotiations and courts. Islam solves it's problems with violence.

Rashomon says

Peace has been maintained through a labyrinthian set of apparatus to try and keep the powers in check.

which only democracy can do.

Rashomon says

Strategist says

How can you as an atheist state religion is not a problem? Are you sure you are an atheist?

Because it's clearly people and circumstances that are the real problems. Look at the Germans now. Look at them in the 1930s and 40s. People are capable of doing pretty much anything imaginable with or without any particular religion supposedly guiding them.

The Germans were a dictatorship then. Remember Hitler the dictator?
Let me ask you....What is your solution to lasting peace, if it's not democracy.

Strategist says

Ever seen a major democracy attack each other?

Yes. And that major European powers haven't done it in the last 70 years is rather more involved than them simply being democratic countries.

Rashomon says

Strategist says

Ever seen a major democracy attack each other?

Yes.

Name the countries.

Strategist says

The Germans were a dictatorship then. Remember Hitler the dictator?

So? Vast numbers still supported him. Many willingly did the most appalling things. Like I said, it doesn't require religion for people to revert to their basest instincts.

Strategist says

Let me ask you....What is your solution to lasting peace, if it's not democracy.

Evolution? Though that process looks like it has probably been stunted by the modern age. Genetics? As long as people are as they are now, there will never be peace. History demonstrates that. It is who we are.

Strategist says

Name the countries.

Ecuador and Peru. The Balkan nations were all democracies. Turkey's invasion of Cyprus.

Rashomon says

Strategist says

Name the countries.

Ecuador and Peru. The Balkan nations were all democracies. Turkey's invasion of Cyprus.

LOL. They are not major democracies.

Rashomon says

Strategist says

Let me ask you....What is your solution to lasting peace, if it's not democracy.

Evolution? Though that process looks like it has probably been stunted by the modern age. Genetics? As long as people are as they are now, there will never be peace. History demonstrates that. It is who we are.

Ha ha ha. What sense does that make? I don't believe you are an atheist. You are a Muslim defending your faith at all costs.

Strategist says

any and all religious texts can be misused by people who want to manipulate others to do their biding.

Some are much much easier to use to incite violence than others.

To declare that all religious texts are somehow the same is willful ignorance.

But if it makes you feel better by reinforcing your prejudice, nothing anyone says is going to shake that good-feeling from clouding your thoughts.

Strategist says

me ask you....What is your solution to lasting peace, if it's not democracy

In fairness, some people have proven time and again that they are not suited to live in a democracy; trying to make them democratic was a stupid plan started by bush and continued by Obama and Clinton to appease Saudi Arabia.

Working with Russians can't possibly be worse

Strategist says

You are a Muslim defending your faith at all costs.

Doubt he is; rather, he is an apologist who doesn't think terms like "Asian gangs" is racist since he is brainwashed by BBC and other anti-India publications in Britain, which is to say most of them.

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob hates the fake Zion. So, God turned Obama, who did regime change in Libya and attempted it in Syria, temporarily against the fake Zion.

If you all want to cross God it is your eternal decision. http://newcovenanttheology.com

You all do realize that Trump and Bannon are anti Semitic while being pro Zionist. Now, why do you think they are this way and want to hide their anti Semitism? Because they are part of the plan to get Jews to fuse with Neo Nazis to hate Muslims.

I wrote you a long time ago saying Ihor Kolomoyskyi, the Ukraine/Israel citizen billionaire is trying to do the same in Eastern Europe, with NO SUCCESS.

Most Jews want to throw up at this Zionist idiocy.

Strategist says

Ha ha ha. What sense does that make? I don't believe you are an atheist. You are a Muslim defending your faith at all costs.

What are you blathering on about? It's perfectly clear what I said. Humans are apes. Nothing more, nothing less. They are inclined to violence, group hysteria etc. etc. Until that changes, then we will always have violence of one form or another. Religion is irrelevant to that. How that changes - who knows, but as I suggested, maybe we will evolve out of our baser instincts, maybe people will be genetically modified to influence behaviour. Get it now? What the hell that has to do with you thinking I'm a Muslim is anyone's guess. Like I said, I'm an atheist. If you don't believe that, who cares.

rando says

To declare that all religious texts are somehow the same is willful ignorance.

But if it makes you feel better by reinforcing your prejudice, nothing anyone says is going to shake that good-feeling from clouding your thoughts.

The Bible has been used for centuries as a basis for doing almost unimaginable horrors. Are you seriously denying that very obvious fact? That we have moved forward from that is a very good thing, but Christianity did have a 700 year headstart...

MMR says

brainwashed by BBC and other anti-India publications in Britain, which is to say most of them.

You can't even get your countries right FFS. And it's funny how you moan about the BBC and other UK media when they clearly take a more balanced approach to Israel than the blatantly obvious biases prevalent in US media. What you seem to fail to grasp is that the BBC was brought to task on a number of issues only because it is held to a far more exacting standard of impartiality than your own networks.

Rashomon says

I'm an atheist.

According to Saudi law, that makes you a terrorist. According to Sharia and Pakistani law, you must be executed for blasphemy. Even in Bangladesh, you would be hunted down and killed by vigilante patrols.

I am curious what motivates you to defend the hateful fraud of Islam? Are you paid by KSA, or Qatar? Shouldn't you rather persuade Muslims to accept atheism, instead of haranging westerners to accept a doctrine that you don't even believe in? Do you defend every fraud? Seriously, what has (mis)led you to demand acceptance of a doctrine that says to kill you? Did some Muslim smile at you and arouse some misguided emotional commitment? Worldwide, in most countries that have Muslim majorities, most Muslims demand Sharia. IOW, they demand your execution. Have you been fooled by some anecdotal minority exceptions? Patrick is right that if a person from a Muslim country manages nevertheless to be a good person, it is precisely because he is not following the hateful fraud of Islam.

Your totally unpersuasive defense of Islam makes you seem an arrogant, hypocritical coward. You fail to defend what you believe in where it might get you killed, and instead you defend something you don't even believe. You defend your enemies while alienating potential friends by demanding that they accept a doctrine that says to kill you. You should denounce whoever or whatever has (mis)led you to such a self-destructive position.

Rashomon says

The Bible has been used for centuries as a basis for doing almost unimaginable horrors. Are you seriously denying that very obvious fact?

So you believe the Bible as the basis for unimaginable horrors, but not the Koran. Bizarre.

Rashomon says

Whereas the West has an unblemished record in that regard.

It sure does. Arabs enslaved everybody, from Ukrainians to Bantus, for 1500 years. European Slavery was comparatively brief and Slavery was never a thing in the European Homeland, only in their colonies.

The last time there was widespread Slavery in Europe itself, the dominant god was Zeus Pater, not Jesus.

Europeans ended slavery due to internal pressure - the first society in WORLD HISTORY to eliminate slavery. The Arabs were forced at gunpoint, and it still continues today under the disguise of guest workers, whose passports are seized, the maids are beaten and raped, and beaten again by the wife is the husband rapes them, and the manual laborers go unpaid.

If it wasn't for fear of European Weaponry, Muslims would formally reinstitute slavery in a heartbeat.

rando says

But Christianity is more ambiguous. Clearly the old laws do not apply to Christians. They eat pork, for example. Jesus' main rule was "love your neighbor as yourself", and deliberately flouted the old law by eating without washing his hands to make a point, for example.

"Handwashing is Hebraic Superstition! "

Disagree with you about the ambiguity.

Medieval people would compete to see who could go without bathing the longest, or wear louse-ridden hairshirts until they rotted off the skin. Pious people, like Saint Anthony, were to be imitated, never washing. Even a Spaniard went months between baths. The Pagan Vikings, however, bathed and washed their hair several times a week, even in the dead of winter, those vain Pagan rascals!

And the meatless days, the superstition against horseflesh, all the saint days, the 20 hail marys and 50 counts of the rosary for sings, regular mass attendance, etc.

Horseflesh disappeared from the menu around the time Christianity came to Europe. The Celts and Britons used to eat it like it was going out of style, horse bones in all the middens, but with Christianity it disappeared. That's the equivalent of a pork ban, and of course there were various days to abstain from meat.

And you would face punishment up to and including execution for translating the Bible into a vernacular language.

All that being said, everybody was more fundamentalist in the past. Pre-Enlightenment Jews certainly weren't the secular liberals of today.

The Old pagan religions were probably more tolerant than any of the monotheistic ones

The Enlightenment is probably the Greatest Thing ever.

Strategist says

Rashomon says

Strategist says

That's the problem. We want Muslims to give up violence, sharia laws, and human rights abuses. What's wrong with that?

There's nothing wrong with that (though plenty of aspects of sharia law are actually pretty innocuous). You seem to think that the Quran is the driving force of what has happened in the last 30+ years. It's rather more complex than that, and the West has been front and centre in helping to create the current situation.

The Koran has been the driving force for the last 1400 years. The West did nothing wrong. We believe in equal rights, freedoms, and democracy. Compare that to the Sharia laws, and what the perfect Muslim, Mohammad believed in.

India had to breed very large men(Sikh) to create an army to protect India against Muslims. That's how bad Muslims are.

Rashomon says

Just look at all those crowing about Brexit and wanting the break up of the EU on here. That very organisation has contributed greatly to a period of peace in one of the most unstable regions in the world historically.

The EU is a fundamentally anti-democratic organization. One of the big points in turning the EEC into the EU was to insure that if a European power went Socialist or Communist (a very real possibility in places like Italy), there would be a supranational organization making that transition difficult.

Today it serves as a neoliberal stranglehold on Europeans, pushing the ideology. A natural evolution, since it was designed to restrain democratic impulses from the beginning. It's no accident Junkers declared his dislike of referendums recently. The EU didn't mind referendums back in the 90s when neoliberalism was more popular and most Europeans brought the line hook and sinker

Just a reminder:

Hitler was Selected, not Elected.

In 1932 the Ultraright coalition actually lost seats, von Papen could not get a majority government together, and eventually struck a deal with von Hindenburg and Hitler to make the latter the Chancellor, with himself as vice-chancellor. It was a backroom deal that brought Hitler to power.

A centrist-left alliance could have easily formed a government, but the Centrists would not join with the Socialists, and neither side with the Communists. Hitler came to power because Liberals wouldn't work with Socialists.

Strategist says

So you believe the Bible as the basis for unimaginable horrors, but not the Koran. Bizarre.

Yeah, yeah, because that is clearly what I said. Oh, hang on, no it wasn't.

curious2 says

I am curious what motivates you to defend the hateful fraud of Islam? Are you paid by KSA, or Qatar? Shouldn't you rather persuade Muslims to accept atheism, instead of haranging westerners to accept a doctrine that you don't even believe in? Do you defend every fraud? Seriously, what has (mis)led you to demand acceptance of a doctrine that says to kill you?

Is reading comprehension such a problem for people on here? Where have I said any of the nonsense you just posted there? Come on, feel free to point it out in my posts. I'm pointing out the problems with individuals on this forum painting every Muslim with the same brush. Of failing to even begin to think about what has contributed to the current mess. Of not even bothering to consider how suicide bombings, a complete anathema to Sunni Muslims until the last few decades, came to be used with such abhorrent consequences. None of you on here seem remotely interested in how that has happened or the part the West has played in undermining stability in the region.

curious2 says

...most Muslims demand Sharia. IOW, they demand your execution.

No, they don't.

curious2 says

Patrick is right that if a person from a Muslim country manages nevertheless to be a good person, it is precisely because he is not following the hateful fraud of Islam.

Nonsense. You think all those peaceful and devout Muslims are not following their religion? I think they might be surprised to learn that.

Drive that knife DEEP!
BURN IN HELL! BLASPHEMERS!

rando says

And how do you explain the Muslim attacks on all the non-Western countries?

BBC didn't talk about that

Rashomon says

curious2 says

...most Muslims demand Sharia. IOW, they demand your execution.

No, they don't.

Jesus H Christ on a cracker;....he said countries with a Muslim MAJORITY. Way to leave it out. I'm sure that was an innocuous mistake.

Links that Muslim majority countries do not support sharia or you are lying

MMR says

Jesus H Christ on a cracker;....he said countries with a Muslim MAJORITY. Way to leave it out. I'm sure that was an innocuous mistake.

Links that Muslim majority countries do not support sharia or you are lying

Every one can read his post - you do understand there is now a limit to the length of posts. And again, you demonstrate problems with basic reading comprehension. 'No, they don't' was referencing the idiotic IOW comment.

Rashomon says

Nonsense. You think all those peaceful and devout Muslims are not following their religion? I think they might be surprised to learn that.

Those moderates you speak of are actually 'bad muslims' as per wahhabi dictates.

They will not fight for sharia themselves but will happily acquiesce to those who do. At least, until they reach critical mass. This is quite evident in Western Europe, with all the rioting.

Yes, those in denial are often obtuse to the fact that they are in denial. Why don't you go brush up on some 'Asian gangs' you racist BBC supporter

HEY YOU says

Drive that knife DEEP!

BURN IN HELL! BLASPHEMERS!

You support muslims who are not in least bit interested in your way of life more than you do the underclass whites who are disenfranchised by globalism. Interesting

MMR says

Those moderates you speak of are actually 'bad muslims' as per wahhabi dictates.

So what? They don't speak for all of Islam, do they?

MMR says

Why don't you go brush up on some 'Asian gangs' you racist BBC supporter

Yeah, you're a real expert on it after reading a couple of articles on your go to alt-right (or more likely in your case far right) websites.

Rashomon says

MMR says

Those moderates you speak of are actually 'bad muslims' as per wahhabi dictates.

So what? They don't speak for all of Islam, do they?

Why not? They are the most religious, and read the Koran the most. They know more about Islam than anyone else.
They emulate Mohammad, the Perfect Muslim. Everything Mohammad did would get him the death penalty today.