patrick.net

Dan8267 says

That's exactly like saying a woman who dresses provocatively is consenting to sex. They are both fucking stupid statements and for the exact same reason.

Consent is consent. Nothing else is consent.

Except that it's not like it at all. Wearing slutty clothing is just wearing slutty clothing. There is no natural result from dressing provocatively. Maybe you need to take a biology class again or something, but the natural result of having sex is a baby. Having sex is consent to the possibility of a baby. That's all there is to it. If you don't want to have a baby, don't have sex.

just any guy says

I agree. You can't have abortion be legal for women, but not allow men the same right to back out of the responsibility. Why do women get that choice and not men? If inserting my penis is consent to having a baby with the woman I'm nailing, then the woman has no right to ever have an abortion.

Considering we are biologically different, the system cannot be perfectly fair. Do you seriously think that if men carried babies, we wouldn't have the right to choose?

ch_tah2 says

Having sex is consent to the possibility of a baby. That's all there is to it.

That's absolute bullshit.

Consent

give permission for something to happen.

It is impossible to consent against your will by definition. There is absolutely no reason to believe that a man who consents to having sex is also consenting, even considering, having a baby and devoting his financial assets for the next 18 years to raising that baby. There is every reason to believe that most of the time men want to have sex, they want just to have sex and not to reproduce. If you don't understand that, then you are a moron.

You are trying to take away the relevance of a man's consent by falsely equating consent to have sex as consent to indenture servitude. This is exactly the same thing as falsely equating a woman's consent to be looked over with consent to have sex. You are giving a big fuck you to the will of the people whose rights you are trying to take away. Consent is about willful, non-coerced choice. Consent cannot be taken simply because you think a person should consent to X in order to get Y. That's the opposite of consent. That's force.

You are intellectually dishonest, and your position is morally and ethically reprehensible.

Why don't you have to integrity to say what you really mean, that the consent of a man should not be required to make him into a slave?

ch_tah2 says

just any guy says

I agree. You can't have abortion be legal for women, but not allow men the same right to back out of the responsibility. Why do women get that choice and not men? If inserting my penis is consent to having a baby with the woman I'm nailing, then the woman has no right to ever have an abortion.

Considering we are biologically different, the system cannot be perfectly fair. Do you seriously think that if men carried babies, we wouldn't have the right to choose?

Sure it can be fair. Biology has nothing to do with the argument we're making. It takes 2 people to make a baby. If a woman can back out and not accept responsibility, a man should have that same right unless the 2 are married and both consent to having a baby.

just any guy says

If a woman can back out and not accept responsibility, a man should have that same right unless the 2 are married and both consent to having a baby.

Agreed. If a man marries a woman with the intent of having children and then back out of it once she is pregnant, he can't retroactively withdraw his consent. Similarly, if a woman chooses to have sex with a man, she can't retroactively withdraw her consent because he didn't call her the next day. Consent can be withdrawn at any time, but never retroactively.

A woman who has had sex with a man many times can withdraw her consent for any sex in the future. The man has the right to dump her or divorce her if she does. A man can withdraw his consent to have children with a woman, but that woman has the right to dump him or divorce him if he does. It's symmetric.

Dan8267 says

Licensing parenting is essentially doing what CPS is designed to do, but being proactive and preventing the problems in the first place.

No, it is not the same. You cannot be certain in advance that there will or will not be problems and what they will be.

Dan8267 says

Having children is not a right. Felons are prevented from having children. So are the people in Gitmo and Abu Grab. Men can't have the right to have children because they must convince a woman to reproduce with them. For all men, having children is a privilege.

Prisoners are deprived of many rights. The fact that it takes a couple to reproduce does not mean that such a right cannot exist; it is a right for a couple to reproduce if they so wish, and to a person individually to be a part of such a couple.

Dan8267 says

If reproduction were a right, then anti-incest laws violate that right. The entire purpose of anti-incest laws is to prevent deformed children.

That is where the compromise "between safety, protection and freeedom" enters.

Dan8267 says

Why should we allow people who are utterly incapable of taking care of children to have them? Are you OK with a welfare queen having another child after she's already had eight because her desire to reproduce is more important then the well-being of her existing children, the new child she would create, the tax payer's dollars, and other people who will be denied financial support because the money when to this woman having another kid?

If that is the price to pay for certain freedoms that I consider basic - yes. I am not that selfish.

FP says

You cannot be certain in advance that there will or will not be problems and what they will be.

A single mother with no income who's living on welfare isn't prepared to be a parent. Period. So yes, you can tell in advance. Life isn't random. It is intelligible. You can find patterns. You can proactively solve problems.

FP says

Prisoners are deprived of many rights.

A right, by definition, cannot be taken away. A freedom that can be taken away is, by definition, a privilege.

FP says

That is where the compromise "between safety, protection and freeedom" enters.

It is no less an arbitrary line than where I'm drawing it.

FP says

If that is the price to pay for certain freedoms that I consider basic - yes.

The freedom to not be body cavity searched is far more basic than the freedom to reproduce when you cannot take care of the offspring.

ch_tah2 says

Having sex is consent to the possibility of a baby.

so this means if a woman agrees to go into a man's house, she consents to the possibility of rape?

don't want to get raped? don't go to his house, don't get in his car, etc.

Dan8267 says

So yes, you can tell in advance. Life isn't random.

Nonsense and you this very well. There are probabilities but not certainty.

Dan8267 says

A right, by definition, cannot be taken away. A freedom that can be taken away is, by definition, a privilege.

Tell me one right according to your definition that cannot be taken away.

Dan8267 says

The freedom to not be body cavity searched is far more basic than the freedom to reproduce when you cannot take care of the offspring.

Fine, that is your opinion. Mine is different. Since I have offspring and you don't + I have higher IQ than you, mine should count more than yours.

FP says

Nonsense and you this very well. There are probabilities but not certainty.

I hate to break this to you, but we execute people in this country and assign very long prison sentences based on far, far looser guesses about the truth. If certainty were a real requirement for slapping someone with a 20-year sentence, there would be near zero convictions. We bomb nations on the basis of much less accurate knowledge.

FP says

Dan8267 says

A right, by definition, cannot be taken away. A freedom that can be taken away is, by definition, a privilege.

Tell me one right according to your definition that cannot be taken away.

That is a failing of our society. Just because we don't have rights in practice, say because a cop can murder an innocent civilian and face no legal consequences, does not mean we should not have rights.

We should have the right, not the privilege, to vote. Felons should be able to vote while in prison. We should have the right to due process. Suspected terrorists should get due process. We should have the right of Habeas Corpus. All people who are or ever were inprisioned in Gitmo should be able to have a trial and to sue the federal government for human rights violations including torture.

This is what it means to be a nation of laws. Just because the United States government is a shit government that doesn't act according to the principles we all claim to uphold, doesn't mean we shouldn't change our government so that it does and punish individual government agents who violate these principles.

FP says

Fine, that is your opinion. Mine is different. Since I have offspring and you don't + I have higher IQ than you, mine should count more than yours.

Honey, don't get your panties in a twist. We're debating a moral and ethical issue. Of course such a debate is going to heavily involve value judgements. If you cannot handle that, then don't engage in debate. Leave that to the adults.

Furthermore, you clearly are not more intelligent than me or you would not have made such a childish comment. Nor does having crapped out a kid give you more rights or the moral high ground. If your ego can't handle a discussion of values and morality, then quite frankly, you seem like another crappy parent who probably shouldn't be one in the first place. If you can't discuss and advocate principles at the level of a mature adult, then how are you setting a good example for your kid?

Dan8267 says

Furthermore, you clearly are not more intelligent than me or you would not have made such a childish comment....

Hahaha, a little trigger I left for you. Take it easy man (but if you have doubts about the IQ part, we can set up a little competition next time I'm in FL :) )

Dan8267 says

That is a failing of our society.

Now this is bla-bla-bla.

I think the discussion is exhausted at this point.

FP says

Hahaha, a little trigger I left for you.

Get over yourself. Just because I point out your immaturity and made you look foolish, doesn't mean you invoked an emotional response in me other than pity.

FP says

I think the discussion is exhausted at this point.

On that we agree. I have refuted everything you said, and you are adding nothing to the conversation.

Dan8267 says

ch_tah2 says

Having sex is consent to the possibility of a baby. That's all there is to it.

That's absolute bullshit.

Consent

give permission for something to happen.

It is impossible to consent against your will by definition. There is absolutely no reason to believe that a man who consents to having sex is also consenting, even considering, having a baby and devoting his financial assets for the next 18 years to raising that baby. There is every reason to believe that most of the time men want to have sex, they want just to have sex and not to reproduce. If you don't understand that, then you are a moron.

You are trying to take away the relevance of a man's consent by falsely equating consent to have sex as consent to indenture servitude. This is...

You can throw a hissy fit all you want. The reality is that the natural result of sex is a baby. If you don't understand that, I can't help you.

RealEstateIsBetterThanStocks says

ch_tah2 says

Having sex is consent to the possibility of a baby.

so this means if a woman agrees to go into a man's house, she consents to the possibility of rape?

don't want to get raped? don't go to his house, don't get in his car, etc.

WTF are you talking about? The natural result of going into someone's house is not being raped. The natural result of having sex is a baby. If you guys are too stupid to foresee that sex = baby, then you probably shouldn't be having sex at all.

Dan8267 says

ch_tah2 says

You can throw a hissy fit all you want.

Translation: I cannot make a rational argument against what you said, so I'll try character assassination and hope the audience is stupid enough to fall for my trick.

No. It was in response to these gems of yours (ahem...character assassination...):
"If you don't understand that, then you are a moron.
You are giving a big fuck you to the will of the people whose rights you are trying to take away.
You are intellectually dishonest, and your position is morally and ethically reprehensible.
Why don't you have to integrity to say what you really mean, that the consent of a man should not be required to make him into a slave?"

RealEstateIsBetterThanStocks says

it is the man's sperm. he should be able to do terminate it as he wishes.

He can. It's called a hand (or a sock if you prefer).

ch_tah2 says

RealEstateIsBetterThanStocks says

ch_tah2 says

Having sex is consent to the possibility of a baby.

so this means if a woman agrees to go into a man's house, she consents to the possibility of rape?

don't want to get raped? don't go to his house, don't get in his car, etc.

WTF are you talking about? The natural result of going into someone's house is not being raped. The natural result of having sex is a baby. If you guys are too stupid to foresee that sex = baby, then you probably shouldn't be having sex at all.

sex does not neccessary equate baby, only dumb feminists think so. there are drugs and contraception.

having sex does not automatically means consent to having a baby. don't be a moron.

having sex means consent to an abortion, period.

ch_tah2 says

Patrick's argument is to either force abortion or not pay.

Patrick is not in favor of forcing women to have an abortion. You are clearly misinterpreting his words. I don't know if that's intentional on your part or not, but you are wrong.

Patrick does point out the hypocrisy of given women unilaterally power on deciding whether or not to terminate a pregnancy while giving men no say in whether or not to raise the child. In effect, the man has no choice while the woman has absolute choice. If the man wants to become a father and the woman doesn't, he's screwed over. If the man doesn't want to become a father and the woman does, he again is screwed over. Patrick is absolutely correct in pointing out this hypocrisy. Pro-choice goes both ways. Both parents, regardless of their genitalia, should have choice. And whatever limits are placed on those choices, like deciding before the third trimester, should apply equally to both genders. Same rules regardless of sex.

Patrick most certainly is pro-choice, at least up to some point in the pregnancy, for both genders. There is nothing contradictory about that position. It would also be non-hypocritical to say that neither gender should have a choice because the unborn's rights take priority. The only hypocritical position is that one gender has absolute say and the other has none.

If you want to make a pro-life from conception argument, then go ahead, but that argument has nothing to do with equality of reproductive laws. Make a pro-life argument in the classic thread The abortion question answered. Turns out, both sides were wrong.

RealEstateIsBetterThanStocks says

having sex means consent to an abortion, period.

No offense, but you are a whack job. You don't make any sense.

ch_tah2 says

RealEstateIsBetterThanStocks says

it is the man's sperm. he should be able to do terminate it as he wishes.

He can. It's called a hand (or a sock if you prefer).

Or in CIC's case, a goat.

ch_tah2 says

RealEstateIsBetterThanStocks says

having sex means consent to an abortion, period.

No offense, but you are a whack job. You don't make any sense.

It's called a joke. Are you incapable of recognizing one when it's in writing? People like you are the reason sitcoms use laugh tracks. You wouldn't be able to tell when to laugh otherwise.

Dan8267 says

It's called a joke. Are you incapable of recognizing one when it's in writing? People like you are the reason sitcoms use laugh tracks. You wouldn't be able to tell when to laugh otherwise.

Jokes are supposed to be funny...

ch_tah2 says

No. It was in response to these gems of yours

Honey, you're the one throwing a hissy fit. It is proper to call a morally reprehensible proposal what it is. We are debating values here, and some values are just down right repulsive. They should be strongly opposed.

ch_tah2 says

He can. It's called a hand (or a sock if you prefer).

Great, so we can ban abortion.

Women can always forgo sex and use their hands or a dildo.

Dan8267 says

Honey, you're the one throwing a hissy fit. It is proper to call a morally reprehensible proposal what it is. We are debating values here, and some values are just down right repulsive. They should be strongly opposed.

Honey...???
WTF? Who calls someone honey? So bizarre.
My morally reprehensible proposal...you mean the current system that we've had in the country for decades?

T L Lipsovich says

ch_tah2 says

He can. It's called a hand (or a sock if you prefer).

Great, so we can ban abortion.

Women can always forgo sex and use their hands or a dildo.

That's exactly the point Patrick was making. The argument that men should have no say in becoming fathers because consent to sex is consent to having a baby applies equally to women. If you reject pro-life from conception, then it is hypocritical to reject men's right to choose not to become fathers.

Dan8267 says

Patrick does point out the hypocrisy of given women unilaterally power on deciding whether or not to terminate a pregnancy while giving men no say in whether or not to raise the child. In effect, the man has no choice while the woman has absolute choice. If the man wants to become a father and the woman doesn't, he's screwed over. If the man doesn't want to become a father and the woman does, he again is screwed over. Patrick is absolutely correct in pointing out this hypocrisy. Pro-choice goes both ways. Both parents, regardless of their genitalia, should have choice. And whatever limits are placed on those choices, like deciding before the third trimester, should apply equally to both genders. Same rules regardless of sex.

Yes, a woman has ultimate say in this matter, but men have just as much say up to a point. Once you cross that threshold, too bad. As you said, there are lots of measures to take so that you don't cross that threshold. If you guys are too stupid and pathetic to not have children with the wrong person, then that's on you.

Keep fighting the good fight guys! One day men will be equal such that they can force a woman to either abort their child, put it up for adoption after it grew inside her for 9 months or not properly feed/provide for the child as a single mother. One day!

ch_tah2 says

RealEstateIsBetterThanStocks says

having sex means consent to an abortion, period.

No offense, but you are a whack job. You don't make any sense.

if you were smarter (like a man) it would have made sense. women achievements in sciences? i rest my case. stay in the kitchen.

Dan8267 says

FP says

Hahaha, a little trigger I left for you.

Get over yourself. Just because I point out your immaturity and made you look foolish

Oops, I must have hit Dan's weak spot. I'll remember it; we'll come back to it again some time.

BTW, immaturity is a compliment for a scientist.

You are taking yourself too seriously for a childless middle aged man rapidly approaching irrelevance.

This is also connected to the Piers Morgan thread

https://patrick.net/1301879/piers-morgan-has-the-right-to-free-speech

Rin says

Piers says

women simply aren’t as good at what they do

This is somewhat related to my Election bitches thread ...

https://patrick.net/1301811/election-bitches-ready-my-lips-the-vote-of-women-in-boston-and-nyc-don-t-matter

I'd disagree with Piers on one count, it's not that women aren't capable of high quality work, white collar or otherwise, it's that many of them are just plain lazy.

I mean why is it that there are so many east Asian, south Asian, and eastern European (plus Persian) women in American STEM programs, but not native born white American women? Is it that it's just plain easier to go the MBA route and be an advertising director than let's say a digital media programmer/analyst, you know, the "ethnic" woman in the office?

And as for Madonna, why is it...

-------------------

Let Rin summarize ...

Chrissie Hynde/Debbie Harry ... true feminism where by virtue of talent and hard work, achieved greatness during their respective careers. These are great American women.

Madonna ... pretentious white trash but pseudo-elitist, who'd used shock-jock tactics, along with an army of song writers, instrumentalists, and choreographers, to produce a phony baloney studio product for the gullible masses.

Yeah, FUCK YOU Madonna! In response to your so-called Gettysburg Address of the protest.

ch_tah2 says

WTF? Who calls someone honey? So bizarre.

I'm being condescending to you because you aren't rising the to challenge of an intelligent debate.

ch_tah2 says

Keep fighting the good fight guys! One day men will be equal such that they can force a woman to either abort their child, put it up for adoption after it grew inside her for 9 months or not properly feed/provide for the child as a single mother. One day!

How about telling the mother 1 month into her pregnancy he doesn't want to be the father, and she can either take care of it herself or have an abortion? Woman still has choices. Everybody gets a choice; women simply don't get to unilaterally impose financial consequences on a male without his say.

Also, why can women impose their decisions on everybody else - many, many women can't support a child, but choose to have one anyway and make the state pay for it. Isn't it the responsibility of adults not to add to the burdens of society, but rather help others?

FP says

Oops, I must have hit Dan's weak spot. I'll remember it; we'll come back to it again some time.

Like Trump and all other trolls, you lose an argument and declare victory. Feel free to masturbate to orgasm. You're still celebrating alone.

FP says

BTW, immaturity is a compliment for a scientist.

You are taking yourself too seriously for a childless middle aged man rapidly approaching irrelevance.

Scientists and engineers value curiosity, and that is a quality young children have. It's not the same thing as immaturity. Scientists and engineers still debate things at an adult level. Refute the central point of your opponent with evidence and reasoning. In value debates, make compelling arguments that your values are best and why, and what are the flaws and consequences of your opponent's. That's the difference between those who succeed and those who fail.

Declare victory for yourself means nothing.

T L Lipsovich says

How about telling the mother 1 month into her pregnancy he doesn't want to be the father, and she can either take care of it herself or have an abortion? Woman still has choices. Everybody gets a choice; women simply don't get to unilaterally impose financial consequences on a male without his say.

A point made dozens of times in this thread. They cannot address it. There answer is simply "fuck all men; if they have sex they deserve to be punished and they have no rights". I think these are guys, whether married or not, who are jealous of all the sex that single men are getting.

I am very surprised that there are those who see the original premise as incorrect and view that men should should have no post-contraception rights. I can understand this if, perhaps, you are pro-life. If we did not have legalized abortion, then both men and women would be constrained equally in the case of an unattended pregnancy.

However, this is certainly not the case today. Today we have created a moral hazard situation. Woman can simply get pregnant and then have control over the man (via state control) as long as the child is under 18 (or longer if special needs child). Unfortunately, we probably all know of situations where a woman "accidentally" got pregnant - either by poking holes in condoms, denying she was "off" the pill, one-night-stand situation with two drunken fools getting together, and so on.

Certainly, a vasectomy is the safest course - however I personally know of a situation where there was a child conceived after the vasectomy. And, yes, a paternity test was done to make sure! The father and mother were married, so the female was not practicing any birth control (and reasonably so). Basically, even with a vasectomy, you need to periodically test because sometimes the cut portion can grow back.

I guess there are two sides to everything, and this board reflects that. Depressing we can't even agree on what basic rights should be.

Dan8267 says

ch_tah2 says

WTF? Who calls someone honey? So bizarre.

I'm being condescending to you because you aren't rising the to challenge of an intelligent debate.

Ah...back to the personal insults...good job.

T L Lipsovich says

How about telling the mother 1 month into her pregnancy he doesn't want to be the father, and she can either take care of it herself or have an abortion? Woman still has choices. Everybody gets a choice; women simply don't get to unilaterally impose financial consequences on a male without his say.

Also, why can women impose their decisions on everybody else - many, many women can't support a child, but choose to have one anyway and make the state pay for it. Isn't it the responsibility of adults not to add to the burdens of society, but rather help others?

As I said before, he has his say when he takes "it" out. Once pregnant though, I do not think it is fair to place all of the burden on the woman.

No where have I said that it is a good thing for society, the child or herself to have a child if it cannot be supported. I fully agree that a lot fewer people should be having children. I think the first part of Idiocracy is spot on. However, I do not think it should be up to me what a woman does once she is pregnant, and I think the person who made her pregnant has some responsibility in the matter.