patrick.net

ch_tah2 says

No. It was in response to these gems of yours

Honey, you're the one throwing a hissy fit. It is proper to call a morally reprehensible proposal what it is. We are debating values here, and some values are just down right repulsive. They should be strongly opposed.

ch_tah2 says

He can. It's called a hand (or a sock if you prefer).

Great, so we can ban abortion.

Women can always forgo sex and use their hands or a dildo.

Dan8267 says

Honey, you're the one throwing a hissy fit. It is proper to call a morally reprehensible proposal what it is. We are debating values here, and some values are just down right repulsive. They should be strongly opposed.

Honey...???
WTF? Who calls someone honey? So bizarre.
My morally reprehensible proposal...you mean the current system that we've had in the country for decades?

T L Lipsovich says

ch_tah2 says

He can. It's called a hand (or a sock if you prefer).

Great, so we can ban abortion.

Women can always forgo sex and use their hands or a dildo.

That's exactly the point Patrick was making. The argument that men should have no say in becoming fathers because consent to sex is consent to having a baby applies equally to women. If you reject pro-life from conception, then it is hypocritical to reject men's right to choose not to become fathers.

Dan8267 says

Patrick does point out the hypocrisy of given women unilaterally power on deciding whether or not to terminate a pregnancy while giving men no say in whether or not to raise the child. In effect, the man has no choice while the woman has absolute choice. If the man wants to become a father and the woman doesn't, he's screwed over. If the man doesn't want to become a father and the woman does, he again is screwed over. Patrick is absolutely correct in pointing out this hypocrisy. Pro-choice goes both ways. Both parents, regardless of their genitalia, should have choice. And whatever limits are placed on those choices, like deciding before the third trimester, should apply equally to both genders. Same rules regardless of sex.

Yes, a woman has ultimate say in this matter, but men have just as much say up to a point. Once you cross that threshold, too bad. As you said, there are lots of measures to take so that you don't cross that threshold. If you guys are too stupid and pathetic to not have children with the wrong person, then that's on you.

Keep fighting the good fight guys! One day men will be equal such that they can force a woman to either abort their child, put it up for adoption after it grew inside her for 9 months or not properly feed/provide for the child as a single mother. One day!

ch_tah2 says

RealEstateIsBetterThanStocks says

having sex means consent to an abortion, period.

No offense, but you are a whack job. You don't make any sense.

if you were smarter (like a man) it would have made sense. women achievements in sciences? i rest my case. stay in the kitchen.

Dan8267 says

FP says

Hahaha, a little trigger I left for you.

Get over yourself. Just because I point out your immaturity and made you look foolish

Oops, I must have hit Dan's weak spot. I'll remember it; we'll come back to it again some time.

BTW, immaturity is a compliment for a scientist.

You are taking yourself too seriously for a childless middle aged man rapidly approaching irrelevance.

This is also connected to the Piers Morgan thread

https://patrick.net/1301879/piers-morgan-has-the-right-to-free-speech

Rin says

Piers says

women simply aren’t as good at what they do

This is somewhat related to my Election bitches thread ...

https://patrick.net/1301811/election-bitches-ready-my-lips-the-vote-of-women-in-boston-and-nyc-don-t-matter

I'd disagree with Piers on one count, it's not that women aren't capable of high quality work, white collar or otherwise, it's that many of them are just plain lazy.

I mean why is it that there are so many east Asian, south Asian, and eastern European (plus Persian) women in American STEM programs, but not native born white American women? Is it that it's just plain easier to go the MBA route and be an advertising director than let's say a digital media programmer/analyst, you know, the "ethnic" woman in the office?

And as for Madonna, why is it...

-------------------

Let Rin summarize ...

Chrissie Hynde/Debbie Harry ... true feminism where by virtue of talent and hard work, achieved greatness during their respective careers. These are great American women.

Madonna ... pretentious white trash but pseudo-elitist, who'd used shock-jock tactics, along with an army of song writers, instrumentalists, and choreographers, to produce a phony baloney studio product for the gullible masses.

Yeah, FUCK YOU Madonna! In response to your so-called Gettysburg Address of the protest.

ch_tah2 says

WTF? Who calls someone honey? So bizarre.

I'm being condescending to you because you aren't rising the to challenge of an intelligent debate.

ch_tah2 says

Keep fighting the good fight guys! One day men will be equal such that they can force a woman to either abort their child, put it up for adoption after it grew inside her for 9 months or not properly feed/provide for the child as a single mother. One day!

How about telling the mother 1 month into her pregnancy he doesn't want to be the father, and she can either take care of it herself or have an abortion? Woman still has choices. Everybody gets a choice; women simply don't get to unilaterally impose financial consequences on a male without his say.

Also, why can women impose their decisions on everybody else - many, many women can't support a child, but choose to have one anyway and make the state pay for it. Isn't it the responsibility of adults not to add to the burdens of society, but rather help others?

FP says

Oops, I must have hit Dan's weak spot. I'll remember it; we'll come back to it again some time.

Like Trump and all other trolls, you lose an argument and declare victory. Feel free to masturbate to orgasm. You're still celebrating alone.

FP says

BTW, immaturity is a compliment for a scientist.

You are taking yourself too seriously for a childless middle aged man rapidly approaching irrelevance.

Scientists and engineers value curiosity, and that is a quality young children have. It's not the same thing as immaturity. Scientists and engineers still debate things at an adult level. Refute the central point of your opponent with evidence and reasoning. In value debates, make compelling arguments that your values are best and why, and what are the flaws and consequences of your opponent's. That's the difference between those who succeed and those who fail.

Declare victory for yourself means nothing.

T L Lipsovich says

How about telling the mother 1 month into her pregnancy he doesn't want to be the father, and she can either take care of it herself or have an abortion? Woman still has choices. Everybody gets a choice; women simply don't get to unilaterally impose financial consequences on a male without his say.

A point made dozens of times in this thread. They cannot address it. There answer is simply "fuck all men; if they have sex they deserve to be punished and they have no rights". I think these are guys, whether married or not, who are jealous of all the sex that single men are getting.

I am very surprised that there are those who see the original premise as incorrect and view that men should should have no post-contraception rights. I can understand this if, perhaps, you are pro-life. If we did not have legalized abortion, then both men and women would be constrained equally in the case of an unattended pregnancy.

However, this is certainly not the case today. Today we have created a moral hazard situation. Woman can simply get pregnant and then have control over the man (via state control) as long as the child is under 18 (or longer if special needs child). Unfortunately, we probably all know of situations where a woman "accidentally" got pregnant - either by poking holes in condoms, denying she was "off" the pill, one-night-stand situation with two drunken fools getting together, and so on.

Certainly, a vasectomy is the safest course - however I personally know of a situation where there was a child conceived after the vasectomy. And, yes, a paternity test was done to make sure! The father and mother were married, so the female was not practicing any birth control (and reasonably so). Basically, even with a vasectomy, you need to periodically test because sometimes the cut portion can grow back.

I guess there are two sides to everything, and this board reflects that. Depressing we can't even agree on what basic rights should be.

Dan8267 says

ch_tah2 says

WTF? Who calls someone honey? So bizarre.

I'm being condescending to you because you aren't rising the to challenge of an intelligent debate.

Ah...back to the personal insults...good job.

T L Lipsovich says

How about telling the mother 1 month into her pregnancy he doesn't want to be the father, and she can either take care of it herself or have an abortion? Woman still has choices. Everybody gets a choice; women simply don't get to unilaterally impose financial consequences on a male without his say.

Also, why can women impose their decisions on everybody else - many, many women can't support a child, but choose to have one anyway and make the state pay for it. Isn't it the responsibility of adults not to add to the burdens of society, but rather help others?

As I said before, he has his say when he takes "it" out. Once pregnant though, I do not think it is fair to place all of the burden on the woman.

No where have I said that it is a good thing for society, the child or herself to have a child if it cannot be supported. I fully agree that a lot fewer people should be having children. I think the first part of Idiocracy is spot on. However, I do not think it should be up to me what a woman does once she is pregnant, and I think the person who made her pregnant has some responsibility in the matter.

ch_tah2 says

However, I do not think it should be up to me what a woman does once she is pregnant, and I think the person who made her pregnant has some responsibility in the matter.

Responsibility without having a choice is authoritarianism, and exploitation.

A woman faces fewer consequences, in fact her life may be dramatically improved, by having a child and getting both state benefits and child support, the latter of which is spent entirely by the woman and subject to no controls. She could spent it on weaves and nobody would be the wiser.

Right now one side has all the Choice-Power, but the Law mandates others share in that Choice without having input: The State cannot ban indigent women from having babies, and the Father cannot refuse the child (or the decision to have to child in the first place).

The decision is unilateral (only the woman), but the responsibility is multi-lateral.

ch_tah2 says

Ah...back to the personal insults...good job.

Insulting a person isn't a counter-argument to their position. I have given many counter-arguments to your position. Insulting a person for refusing to engage in real debate and using dishonesty and misdirection is a perfectly valid response. I don't attack your arguments by insulting you. I attack your arguments with reason and then I insult you when you resort to underhanded tactics to avoid addressing the real issues. If you don't like that, tough. It's valid to pass judgement on a person who is underhanded.

Dan8267 says

T L Lipsovich says

How about telling the mother 1 month into her pregnancy he doesn't want to be the father, and she can either take care of it herself or have an abortion? Woman still has choices. Everybody gets a choice; women simply don't get to unilaterally impose financial consequences on a male without his say.

A point made dozens of times in this thread. They cannot address it. There answer is simply "fuck all men; if they have sex they deserve to be punished and they have no rights". I think these are guys, whether married or not, who are jealous of all the sex that single men are getting.

I have addressed it. I'll do it one more time. The guy cannot after the fact, say it is all the woman's burden. He helped get into the mess; he can help with it. You guys are trying to make it sound simple. Getting an abortion can be an extremely emotional (or religion-defying) option. Carrying a baby for 9 months and then just giving it away is extremely heartwrenching. Being a single parent would probably be one of the hardest things to do well - I couldn't imagine it. Dan has no clue what he is talking about.

ch_tah2 says

Once pregnant though, I do not think it is fair to place all of the burden on the woman.

Is it fair to have the decision made unilaterally by the woman? The closest to fairness one can get is letting each gender decide whether or not to become a parent. Yes, the woman can and should take into consideration whether or not the man will commit when making her decision. However, neither party should be allowed to force 18 years of parenthood onto the other person. That is completely unjust.

ch_tah2 says

He helped get into the mess; he can help with it.

Again, he has no choice; she has choices.

Society has no choice either.

The Woman has unilateral control of the situation, but can demand multilateral support from everybody else without them having ANY choice in the matter.

This is an unbalanced situation with massive repercussions for society.

T L Lipsovich says

Responsibility without having a choice is authoritarianism, and exploitation.

A woman faces fewer consequences, in fact her life may be dramatically improved, by having a child and getting both state benefits and child support, the latter of which is spent entirely by the woman and subject to no controls. She could spent it on weaves and nobody would be the wiser.

I've said, my view is the man has a choice, just earlier in the situation.

Why does everything always begin with the assumption that the man is incapable of actually caring for the child? If they have joint custody, the man's financial burden drops in many states (if not, it should). So, men have additional choices as well.

ch_tah2 says

Why does everything always begin with the assumption that the man is incapable of actually caring for the child?

That is not at issue. This is a matter of rights.

ch_tah2 says

I've said, my view is the man has a choice, just earlier in the situation.

And I pointed out that it is a bad analogy, because the woman can keep, give away for adoption, or abort the child AS WELL AS decide whether to have sex.

The only "Choice" men have is the sex part. If condoms fail or pills "Forget" to be taken, he's Shit out of luck, and totally at the mercy of whatever the woman decides.

T L Lipsovich says

This is an unbalanced situation with massive repercussions for society.

I agree, but until our society becomes not just a pro choice one, but a pro abortion one, that's the society we live in.

I have a great idea: Society only supports single mothers in half-way homes, with curfews and duties and mandatory education - but with free child and health care.

That way single mothers who can't afford babies can't live free and independently.

That would get rid of 80% of indigent births, once enough teenage and young women realize a baby is no longer a ticket to an apartment and food stamps and other benefits, but to a minimum-security prison type situation.

T L Lipsovich says

And I pointed out that it is a bad analogy, because the woman can keep, give away for adoption, or abort the child AS WELL AS decide whether to have sex.

The only "Choice" men have is the sex part. If condoms fail or pills "Forget" to be taken, he's Shit out of luck, and totally at the mercy of whatever the woman decides.

I don't think it's a bad analogy. As I've said, it is not a biologically level playing field. It cannot be 100% equal because men do not carry babies in them for 9 months. At some point, the woman decides.

ch_tah2 says

I don't think it's a bad analogy. As I've said, it is not a biologically level playing field. It cannot be 100% equal because men do not carry babies in them for 9 months. At some point, the woman decides.

I disagree, this is a matter of legal equality.

It's no different than gay marriage. Before society said "No Way". Now society says "Okay."

All we need to do is allow men to file paperwork within 90 days of being informed they are the biological dad (or will be the bio dad) to excuse themselves from fatherhood.

We've created a Sexual Utopia for women that regardless of outcome, they are always in control and always taken care of, so the incentive to regulate themselves is minimal and wholly a self-centered personal choice without reference to their partner or society.

T L Lipsovich says

I have a great idea: Society only supports single mothers in half-way homes, with curfews and duties and mandatory education - but with free child and health care.

That way single mothers who can't afford babies can't live free and independently.

That would get rid of 80% of indigent births, once enough teenage and young women realize a baby is no longer a ticket to an apartment and food stamps and other benefits, but to a minimum-security prison type situation.

I agree more should be done to discourage women getting pregnant without being able to support the child. I'm in no way a proponent of single motherhood. But, again, you are proposing some pretty draconian measures. Will they work? Maybe. But out society is not on board with it.

ch_tah2 says

But out society is not on board with it.

Of course not. Women are well aware that the law is overwhelmingly in their favor and allows them all the choice-power but heavily mitigates any negative consequences.

I say we should license parenting. You have to demonstrate fiscal responsibility to have a child. We support the poor with welfare to make sure all their living needs are met, but the those who take welfare cannot have children until they have paid society back every penny. If they die without paying it back, we'll absorb the costs, but we won't let the poverty persist generation after generation. Ultimately this will make poverty a self-correcting problem.

People should be required to put back what they've taken from the system before they get their genes into the next generation so that there are resources to protect the next generation. This is the essence of sustainability.

We can debate the enforcement mechanism, but let's first accept the principle. A child is not an accessory like a purse. Your desire to get your crappy ass DNA into the next generation does not warrant generation after generation of impoverishment. Mankind should not act as a virus, doing everything possible to reproduce to the point of killing off its environment. Your genetic code simply isn't that important. And if society is going to provide great assistance in making sure that people don't starve or die from exposure, that they are educated and protected, then society has the right to demand that you do your part in responsible reproduction, namely refraining from it until you can put back into the world at least as much as you have taken out. Anything less is just plain selfishness on your part.

It is the responsibility of each generation to leave the world a slightly better place than it has found it.

Going out on a limb based on Dan8268 comments:
1) Marriage is a default agreement to have and support children. So, a child conceived from a married couple should make both parties obligated to support that child. And, in this case, the woman does have the decision to bring the child to term even if the father opposes it. Marriage is the "agreement" that presupposed reproduction. If you don't want children, don't get married. We have no current marriage licensing agreements based on income. Perhaps that could change.
2) If you are not married, then the father should have post-contraception rights (just as women already do) as discussed in the various comments and threads above.

I am not sure how you deal with the situation where an unmarried mother chooses to have the child without the agreement of the father. In this case, currently the "state" will make the father support the child. If, in the future, men had an "opt out" right, and yet the woman chooses to continue the pregnancy, what happens to the child? Today the "state" is basically saying that the needs and rights of the child outweighs the father's (and mothers) rights. Perhaps the state "means test" the mother's capability of raising the child; however, that seems a bit invasive. As well, conditions can change and the state may be on the hook anyway (woman loses her job, or gets injured, etc...). Really, the "enemy" in terms of men's post contraceptive rights is not necessarily the women's movement but really the state which has an antiquated notion of reproduction and assumes both parties want the child and that likely the child was conceived "in marriage".

Curious if anyone knows what happens in the case of a woman having a child via sperm donor bank? I believe that the "father" in that case is not legally on the hook for support. In which case, not sure why anyone disagrees that men should be able to "opt out" if unmarried. However, is there any means testing done today for pregnancies from a sperm donor bank? Don't know the answer but curious on that....

Dan8267 says

I say we should license parenting. You have to demonstrate fiscal responsibility to have a child. We support the poor with welfare to make sure all their living needs are met, but the those who take welfare cannot have children until they have paid society back every penny. If they die without paying it back, we'll absorb the costs, but we won't let the poverty persist generation after generation. Ultimately this will make poverty a self-correcting problem.

People should be required to put back what they've taken from the system before they get their genes into the next generation so that there are resources to protect the next generation. This is the essence of sustainability.

We can debate the enforcement mechanism, but let's first accept the principle. A child is not an accessory like a purse. Your desire to get your crappy ass DNA into the next generation does not warrant generation after generation of impoverishment. Mankind should not act as a virus, doing ...

I agree in theory. The problem is in practice, you are essentially telling the poor that they cannot have children. Furthermore, black and brown people are disproportionately poor. Thus, your licensing scheme is racist. Who knew you were such a raging racist, Dan?

krc says

Curious if anyone knows what happens in the case of a woman having a child via sperm donor bank? I believe that the "father" in that case is not legally on the hook for support. In which case, not sure why anyone disagrees that men should be able to "opt out" if unmarried. However, is there any means testing done today for pregnancies from a sperm donor bank? Don't know the answer but curious on that....

I don't know either, but it could be a few different factors: 1) the man signs a contract before deposit time which relieves him of any obligations, 2) the woman knows going in the donor will not be there to support her in any way, 3) does the woman in that case need to show that she is capable financially to raise the child by herself?

So, then the question is couldn't #1 apply to non-sperm bank situations (i.e., a pre-nup for sex). It makes sense to me, although it does seem to leave the child screwed if the mom is an idiot and cannot support the child without support from the father. And the whole point of child support is to, you know, support the child...

Dan8267 says

, you lose an argument and declare victory.

You realize that I can say the same, right?

(And actually, I do not recall declaring a victory. Where's it?)

Dan8267 says

Scientists and engineers

Please do not equate engineers to scientists (and by this I mean physicists). Entirely different way of thinking.

krc says

If you don't want children, don't get married.

Well that's not true. Plenty of straight and gay people get married without the intention of having children. They should, of course, discuss the issue before hand, and if they don't, it's not unreasonable to presume they they are intending to have children. But certainly, people can get married without having the intent to have children. In fact, this is quite common among middle age and old people who already have children and are looking for a second or third marriage for companionship rather than reproduction.

krc says

I believe that the "father" in that case is not legally on the hook for support.

There's been plenty of cases of the state trying to get the sperm donator on the hook. It's not safe in the U.S. and many other countries. If you are going to donate sperm, go to another country and donate anonymously.

ch_tah2 says

I agree in theory. The problem is in practice, you are essentially telling the poor that they cannot have children.

Problems in implementation can be dealt with by improving the implementation. They are not obstacles that cannot be overcome.

Nor does this mean that poor people cannot ever become parents. It means that the poor, the bipolar, the homeless, etc. must get their together before becoming a parent. I have no problem with anti-poverty programs designed to address the root causes of poverty and to get people permanently out of poverty. I'm more than willing to pay taxes for that as I have stated many times.

ch_tah2 says

Furthermore, black and brown people are disproportionately poor. Thus, your licensing scheme is racist. Who knew you were such a raging racist, Dan?

That's called race baiting, and it's a sign of a weak position.

There was a case where standardized testing for fire fighters resulted in white, typically Irish, men being promoted because they did substantially better on the tests. The entire purpose of the test was to eliminate any bias and make the test fair and objective. But the city demoted the men afterwards because the city didn't get the results they wanted. This was morally wrong, legally discriminating against the white fire fighters on the basis of race, and it endangered the community by promoting unqualified people instead. Put simply, the city was being racist trying not to be racist.

Seeking race-specific results is racism. Having a level playing field is not. And yes, I'm a "fucking white male" and anyone who has a problem with that is a bigot. I don't care about race. I care about results. And equality of opportunity and equality of outcome are mutually exclusive. I will always pick the former.

FP says

Dan8267 says

, you lose an argument and declare victory.

You realize that I can say the same, right?

Yes, but in your case you would be wrong.

FP says

Please do not equate engineers to scientists (and by this I mean physicists). Entirely different way of thinking.

Not really. The work environment and length of time spent on projects differs vastly between scientists and engineers, but people in both fields tend to have similar world views, curiosity, and interests.