patrick.net

Heraclitusstudent says

The entire conversation goes awry when everyone assumes men and women should be equal.

Women willingly take the burden of motherhood. Men are doomed to share their resources with them.

It's not symmetric, nor will it ever be.

Excellent point!

Men and women are biologically very different. They should have different roles and responsibilities.

Right?

Of course once you admit that men and women are not "equal" in every respect, the feminism does not make sense. Feminism is the radical notion that women are men.

So you have to either give men truly equal rights to women, or admit that there is a biological basis for differing responsibilities.

rando says

once you admit that men and women are not "equal" in every respect, the feminism does not make sense.

Yes. Feminism is a lie. Women are still the primary caregivers — for children, aging parents and ailing relatives. Which means they rely on men. You can't simply let men walk out for themselves. But women can't claim they are independent when so obviously they rely on men for so many things. And men should recognize they rely on women for care giving.

Heraclitusstudent says

But women can't claim they are independent when so obviously they rely on men for so many things. And men should recognize they rely on women for care giving.

Sounds like (gasp!) you are advocating traditional marriage, where wives should be the primary caregivers for children, and husbands should work to support their wives and children. And men have certainty that the children they support are their own.

That kind of talk can get you fired these days. Or expelled from a university. Or physically beaten by an angry mob of leftists.

Mandatory paternity testing at birth would solve the problem of uncertainty.

rando says

you are advocating traditional marriage

I'm not. Though certainly things were more simple when we had marriage and no contraception. Then no one had "choice" (except sex or not).
Now we have choices, and men complaining they are left behind. But if you let men act like teenagers, walking away and caring only for themselves, then de facto you leave behind a very imbalanced equation. It's a practical matter. Idealism has nothing to do with it.

I don't think caring for a kid can be seen as acting like a 'teenager', but in any case, fair has nothing to do with it.
Otherwise how do you suggest we ensure good support for children given that men have completely different incentives in the matter than women do?

I'm happy for the suffering. It's rightful comeuppance for people who sat idly by while The State pulled massive injustices for decades. Hopefully you learn your lesson; Freedom isn't free. You must speak out against all injustices always, lest they run out of people to ruin and you wind up in their sights, with noone left to fight for you. And you realize you only have yourself to blame

Heraclitusstudent says

People are not equal. Admit it and go on with your life.

But prior to this century:
1. Women who got pregnant outside marriage either:
1a. subject to intense pressure to get married to the male involved (as was the male)
1b. subject to massive social consequences (in order to protect THEIR estimated virtue, other women would insult and degrade them)
1c. were kicked out of the tribe.

Today none of the countervailing pressures exist: unwed mothers and their partners are not pressured (inc. by the authorities as well as peers) into marriage, there are few social consequences and women circle the wagons around unwed mothers, and they get food stamps and free housing and other benefits if they can't support a child from the tribe.

It's sexual utopia for women: Reproduce where and whenever, men have no say, no negative reaction from society and for many a boon.

This is why the "Home for Unwed Mothers" Dormitory idea in lieu of food stamps and Section-8 is the key.

If more 14-25 year old indigent or near indigent women knew the fate of unwed motherhood was living in a dorm, with healthy but bland industrial meals, a curfew, scheduled work and course hours, instead of getting a place of their own and money and credit to spent as they please, things would change damn fast.

If you are indigent, and refuse to go to the Dormitory, your kids get CPS'd since you can't provide them with shelter or food.

I do see that an abortion is a burden for the woman, so to make things fair-ish, it seems that the man should pay for the abortion.

Here are the four possible cases:

1. He wants it, she wants it. No problem, he accepts the responsibility.
2. He doesn't want it, she doesn't want it. No problem, kid will not exist.
3. He wants it, she doesn't want it. He's fucked.
4. He doesn't want it, she does want it. He's fucked.

So in 2 out of four cases, her choice is fulfilled, and he is fucked.

T L Lipsovich says

This is why the "Home for Unwed Mothers" Dormitory idea in lieu of food stamps and Section-8 is the key.

I like it.

rando says

Men and women are biologically very different. They should have different roles and responsibilities.

Right?

The asymmetry of the sexes makes perfect equality regarding reproduction impossible. Women will always, and should, have unilateral control over the decision of whether or not to have an abortion. However, we should still strive to achieve as close to equality as is physically possible, even in reproductive law. As such, men should have the same choice about whether or not to take on the very significant responsibility of parenthood. Becoming a parent should not be forced onto any person. It's quite clear what equality of law means in this matter. Both genders have the right to say no, and no means no.

And for the idiots on this thread, consent to have sex is not consent to become a parent anymore than dressing provocatively is consent to having sex. Consent is explicit and willful. It is never implied. Not in sex, parenthood, or anything else.

rando says

Feminism is the radical notion that women are men.

If you ask a hundred people to define feminism, you'll get a hundred different and contradicting answers. The word has become meaningless. I don't judge a woman or man who claims to be a feminist, because there is no way of telling what they mean. So I just ask them what specifically they mean.

I believe in equality under law. That's liberalism. If feminism is equality regardless of sex, then feminism is just a narrow subset of liberalism. We don't need a word for that. We should all be liberals. We should all believe in equality under law and equal legal rights.

Some people talk about social equality, but they never seem to be able to define what that is. Does social equality mean we all get invited to the same parties? Have the same chance of dating the homecoming queen or quarterback? If so, we'll never have social equality.

And then there are the bitter haters who use the word feminism to refer to their warped views and spitefulness. Those people are not defendable.

Depends on the woman...

Heraclitusstudent says

Men are doomed to share their resources with them.

T L Lipsovich says

But prior to this century:

1. Women who got pregnant outside marriage either:

1a. subject to intense pressure to get married to the male involved (as was the male)

1b. subject to massive social consequences (in order to protect THEIR estimated virtue, other women would insult and degrade them)

1c. were kicked out of the tribe.

You mean prior to last century. I think that all went away in the 1970s if not before. Most people alive today weren't alive when those things were true.

With their lack of pussy driving the conversation, i was forced to do a FIFY...

Ironman says

Unbelievable, reading the posts in this thread today is so sad, a bunch of pussy whipped "women" playing my dick is bigger smaller than yours...

T L Lipsovich says

If more 14-25 year old indigent or near indigent women knew the fate of unwed motherhood was living in a dorm, with healthy but bland industrial meals, a curfew, scheduled work and course hours, instead of getting a place of their own and money and credit to spent as they please, things would change damn fast.

There is a moral hazard to letting it be too easy to reproduce and have the state raise your children. It allows women to choose really bad mates. This not only exemplifies the problems fiscally and culturally, but it also provides great evolutionary pressure for generating men who just impregnate 100 different women. And there is no way to force a man to pay for the raising of 100 kids. He simply does not have the resources to do so. The entire indentured servitude model breaks down when the man says, fuck it, I'll just spread my seed around since I'm already fucked.

Do we ultimately want to breed men into being worthless, unproductive members of society who just compete for sexual access? It makes far more sense to link reproductive success to productivity and responsibility. Taking away responsibilities and consequences from women's mating choices is terrible for our species. You reap what you sow in evolution.

Dan8267 says

I think these are guys, whether married or not, who are jealous of all the sex that single men are getting.

That's a good explanation. Had not considered it but it feels true.

Not just guys, but women often hate the idea that someone else can have sex and not have to pay for it somehow, when they themselves are having a hard time in the sexual marketplace.

rando says

Not just guys, but women often hate the idea that someone else can have sex and not have to pay for it somehow, when they themselves are having a hard time in the sexual marketplace.

It's all jealousy. People throw rocks at things that shine.

More examples why parenting should require a license.

www.youtube.com/embed/77LNBK8jZZg

Without a man's affirmative consent to paternity, it's rape!

A slide projected onstage defined consent through three "pillars": "Knowing exactly what and how much I'm agreeing to; expressing my intent to participate; deciding freely and voluntarily to participate."
Instead of waiting for your partner to say "no," speakers onstage told students, you should seek an explicit "yes." It could come in the form of a smile, a nod or a verbal yes, as long as it's unambiguous, "enthusiastic" and ongoing.

Shit, he really said that? Yeah, prostitution and sex for pleasure has existed before our ancestors were human. Hell female chimps and other female mammals gladly prostitute themselves for resources.

--------------

He said "Sex as entertainment is a product of the pill."

Entertainment is much different than for resources

rando says

Without a man's affirmative consent to paternity, it's rape!

It's time to go back to single-sex colleges. This whole co-ed thing clearly isn't working.

Perhaps workplaces as well.

I guess since the college campus now want "contracts" for sexual activity, then perhaps the contract of "marriage" should come back in vogue. :)

T L Lipsovich says

Heraclitusstudent says

People are not equal. Admit it and go on with your life.

But prior to this century:

1. Women who got pregnant outside marriage either:

1a. subject to intense pressure to get married to the male involved (as was the male)

1b. subject to massive social consequences (in order to protect THEIR estimated virtue, other women would insult and degrade them)

1c. were kicked out of the tribe.

Today none of the countervailing pressures exist: unwed mothers and their partners are not pressured (inc. by the authorities as well as peers) into marriage, there are few social consequences and women circle the wagons around unwed mothers, and they get food stamps and free housing and other benefits if they can\'t support a child from the tribe.

It\'s sexual utopia for women: Reproduce where and whenever, men have no say, no negative reaction fro...

That was a very intelligent comment.

When I visited Año Nuevo beach near here 10 years ago to see the elephant seals, the female docent giving the tour made an interesting point I've never forgotten.

Docent: The strongest males gather a harem of females and have sex with them whenever they want.
Woman in the audience: Why do the females put up with that?
Docent: Because the top males protect their harem, preventing all the other males from raping them constantly. The females actually seek the protection of the top males.
Woman in the audience: Oh.

rando says

When I visited Año Nuevo beach near here 10 years ago to see the elephant seals, the female docent giving the tour made an interesting point I've never forgotten.

Docent: The strongest males gather a harem of females and have sex with them whenever they want.

Woman in the audience: Why do the females put up with that?

Docent: Because the top males protect their harem, preventing all the other males from raping them constantly. The females actually seek the protection of the top males.

Woman in the audience: Oh.

Morale of the story? Top males will always rule the earth.

Ironman says

gay nerd from Boca Raton

Oh, I didn't know. Feel bad for making fun of him now. Sorry Dan.

FP says

Ironman says

gay nerd from Boca Raton

Oh, I didn't know. Feel bad for making fun of him now. Sorry Dan.

It's pretty sad that you two losers think that calling someone gay is an insult. That says far more about you than the person you are trying to insult.

Ironman says

The best part is the single, fat, gay nerd from Boca Raton trying to make it look like he knows something about females, raising children and relationships..

Projection is a window into the soul. Your insults reveal your insecurities.

Rin desperately needs to gather all the mysoginists here for a montreal field trip so they can finally get laid, and then shut the fuck up.

Dan8267 says

It's pretty sad that you two losers think that calling someone gay is an insult.

No, not at all!

I feel bad for teasing you for not having children.

Don't let your anger could your thinking.

Looks like I've upset piggy. Or maybe CIC is just still upset because I exposed him for the dumbass he is.

Ironman says

Dan8267 says

WiFi repeaters attached to solar panels. Self-sustaining. No need for electricity.

I bet they work really well at night.

Dan8267 says

Ironman says

I bet they work really well at night.

Yes, because of something called a rechargeable battery, dumb ass.

What a moron. Its no surprise that an idiot like this has no friends.

Hey CIC, honest question. When was the last time you had sex with a new woman? For me it was last week. Two of them. Suck it.

Dan8267 says

Hey CIC, honest question. When was the last time you had sex with a new woman?

Look who just got silent all of a sudden.

Dan8267 says

Dan8267 says

Hey CIC, honest question. When was the last time you had sex with a new woman?

Look who just got silent all of a sudden.

I think CIC needs a retirement hobby, more than a place to stick his cock.

Seriously, when I'm done with this traveling PR stint, you won't be hearing me on PatNet 7x24. I'd be very busy on my other hobbies and activities.

In contrast, CIC has nothing else to do with his life because he's society's bitch, completely pussywhipped by his wife and family. That's why he's here 7x24.

Dan8267 says

Dan8267 says

Hey CIC, honest question. When was the last time you had sex with a new woman?

Still waiting for the answer. Why are you so scared of answering it? Has it been that long? If anyone needs a hand, it's you.

Ironman says

....whining and carrying on because you don't have a significant other in your life. We can only hope you disappear with your pathetic life.

I can see why that is, who would want to spend ANY time with a drunk who's infested with all types of STD's...

So sad to be you.

So you're so happy with your significant other ... that you're on this forum 7X24, instead of either kissing your soulmate or perhaps, writing your great American novel. That sounds like a very typical pussywhipped American man, whose wife had stopped putting out, years ago.

The fact that you're even responding to me, instead of having something more meaningful to do with your free time, shows that you're a pathetic loser.

Piggy is certainly unhappy with his marriage. That is why he's jealous of all the single guys. He's obsessed with hating us because our lives are so much happier than he can ever imagine his being. That's also the reason he's a troll. No happy person spends his time trying to upset strangers on the Internet. Only pathetic losers do that.

Piggy hasn't had sex with a new woman in 40+ years. I suspect that his fat, ugly wife is just a beard. It would explain his obsession with all things gay. But maybe he would be happier if he just let some guy fuck his ass. He's obviously a self-hating bottom.

Dan8267 says

Piggy is certainly unhappy with his marriage. That is why he's jealous of all the single guys. He's obsessed with hating us because our lives are so much happier than he can ever imagine his being. That's also the reason he's a troll. No happy person spends his time trying to upset strangers on the Internet. Only pathetic losers do that.

Piggy hasn't had sex with a new woman in 40+ years. I suspect that his fat, ugly wife is just a beard. It would explain his obsession with all things gay. But maybe he would be happier if he just let some guy fuck his ass. He's obviously a self-hating bottom.

This is the American life, the average guy is a pussywhipped loser, who's left, begging his fat (a/o skinny but bitchy) wife for handouts.

Damn Cic getting drubbed. What a pathetic loser