patrick.net

Well I think you are ahead. A man should first have the choice to not pay child support if the child is proven by DNA to not be his. In several states, a man has to pay child support under threat of jail-even if it was proven that the child was not his!!

Yes, that one should come first, because it is even more unfair to men.

One more proposal: mandatory paternity testing at birth, so that there is absolutely no doubt about whose child it is.

Added link to this page on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/5oxcgn/mens_choice_movement/ so here's a link back to them.

rando says

A man should have the choice to refuse to pay all child support if he did not explicitly ask for and want the woman to have the child.

So the child should live in poverty, or somebody else should pay for it?

lostand confused says

A man should first have the choice to not pay child support if the child is proven by DNA to not be his.

This I agree with.

rando says

mandatory paternity testing at birth

This too.

FP says

So the child should live in poverty, or somebody else should pay for it?

Women should not give birth to children that the man does not want. If the man says no, it's still her choice: child with poverty, or no child.

If she's religious and feels she cannot have an abortion, then she probably wouldn't be pregnant to begin with. And if it happened, well, the traditional solution was adoption.

Ironman says

How about taking responsibility to use birth control, so the baby part doesn't even happen in the first place????

Woman are assumed to have zero agency of their own.

A man should have the choice to smoke some grass if he so chooses, but you nitwits sat there all complacent because you thought the unAmerican laws were just for the blacks.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/health/rate-of-us-abortions-hits-lowest-since-roe-v-wade.amp.html?client=safari

While I do not like the idea of a child growing up in poverty, and would not allow this for any child of mine. But, there is no reason a woman can make this decision and it is immoral for a man to make the same decision. He is not the only one who can choose to use birth control. BTW, I would expect a rapist (legally proven in court) to pay for the child's upbringing.

Patrick says

If she has the right to refuse responsibility for the baby, he should also have the right to refuse responsibility for the baby.

Absolutely, and for the exact same reasons.

And women should consider whether or not the man is going to accept being a father when deciding if to become a mother. A child is a responsibility, not an accessory.

Ironman says

Patrick says

If she has the right to refuse responsibility for the baby, he should also have the right to refuse responsibility for the baby.

How about taking responsibility to use birth control, so the baby part doesn't even happen in the first place????

Sometimes it's a trap. She wants the kid and the money. Our even just the money.

This trap catches rich men all the time.

lostand confused says

A man should first have the choice to not pay child support if the child is proven by DNA to not be his. In several states,

If consent to have sex were consent to have a child, then abortion would not be a right. Equal rights under law for all requires that men cannot be forces to become fathers against their will.

rando says

One more proposal: mandatory paternity testing at birth, so that there is absolutely no doubt about whose child it is.

This should happen automatically, not only to protect men from massive fraud, but also to protect the baby from misinformation. Having misinformation about your genetic background and family medical history is far worse than having no information.

Of course, pseudo-feminists will venomously oppose this as it would expose a lot of paternity fraud.

rando says

Sometimes it's a trap. She wants the kid and the money. Our even just the money.

Our society should require a license to become a parent. To get the license you must prove
- you are financially capable of supporting a child (having at least $100k of savings and zero debt)
- you are financially stable (having an income of at least $50k/yr uninterrupted for each of the past 5 years)
- you are emotionally stable (no depression or bipolar issues)
- you are educated about being a parent (testing)

If a man & woman get pregnant,they should be executed.
~7.5 billion is a enough.
If they cared about this planet they would commit suicide.

rando says

If the man says no, it's still her choice: child with poverty, or no child.

So you are willing to sacrifice the child to make it fair for men. I am not willing. When we can't it make fair for everybody, we have to prioritize according to our values.

FP says

So you are willing to sacrifice the child to make it fair for men.

Isn't it the woman who is sacrificing the child if she chooses to have it in poverty?

She's also putting society on the hook as well.

rando says

FP says

So you are willing to sacrifice the child to make it fair for men.

Isn't it the woman who is sacrificing the child if she chooses to have it in poverty?

You think she should be forced to have an abortion?

If not, then you are fine with stamping the blame on her and letting the child live in poverty?

FP says

So the child should live in poverty

If the mother to be is too stupid to get an abortion, yes.

FP says

You think she should be forced to have an abortion?

If not, then you are fine with stamping the blame on her and letting the child live in poverty?

What? How did you jump to the idea that she should be forced to do anything? I never suggested any force.

I'm just saying that the man should have an equal right to decide on whether he wants to accept responsibility for the baby.

She has a right to choose. The man should have an equal right to choose.

Or do only women have rights?

"For the good of the child" seems to be coded speech for "whatever the woman wants".

Lawyers make a rather large % of their cases based on child rights laws. A law that would create an out for a mans responsibility would trim up to 10-20% of total Lawyers annual salaries.

Regardless of the merit of the idea - its not going to happen.

It will happen if the idea of equal rights can be presented to most men. This is part of that effort.

Dan8267 says

Our society should require a license to become a parent. To get the license you must prove

- you are financially capable of supporting a child (having at least $100k of savings and zero debt)

- you are financially stable (having an income of at least $50k/yr uninterrupted for each of the past 5 years)

- you are emotionally stable (no depression or bipolar issues)

- you are educated about being a parent (testing)

There are people in the public sector, Child Support, Child Welfare, Social Work, Country Childcare, School vouchers, city workers involved in daycare liscensing.

Again, the economy for assistance of low salaried husbands/wife and moms for the public sector is nearly a $Trillion dollar industry for the public sector. That those who work in the government assistance of poor families(who work in the private sector doing nearly all the menial work) - typically make 2-4X what the people make whom that are "helping".
A great financial analysis would be:
1. Determine the ratio of Fed/State/Local Jobs spent on low income assistance, (childcare/housing/school meals/welfare).
2. Sum up all the salaries and other direct costs of these child assisting public sector jobs from all states, fed, counties, cities.
3. Sum up all the cum salaries of the low income folks warranting the assistance to supplement their resources from all states, fed, counties, cities.
Divide #2/#3. If the ratio is greater than 0.4 suggest taking all the funds and giving them to the states, and gradually reducing the "public sector" children/family advocates by reassigning/attrition.
4. States take $$ that was spent on Public Sector children/family advocates (which in California would be in excess of $2.5 Billion per year) and spend 1/3rd of it on public works projects, 1/3rd on tax incentives to hire historically low income people, 1/3rd directly to the poor.

Another Idea.

Even time I go to the store, I see KGs of meat and chicken and other organic good near expiry.

What would a cost/benefit analysis be if we have "Freddie Mac" making food available to the needy?

- Provide Stores Tax incentive for food donations within 3-5 days of expiring.
- Stores could write off up to $4000 / per day of the retail costs (like income tax have a form Groc101 which is you donated food, the store could write off 25% of the retail cost of the food.
- Thus a store would have to donate $16K worth of food to get a daily $4K write off.
-Before you write off my idea, it likely costs $30K/day to run an supermarket (not counting the wholesale costs of food/goods recieved). So the savings to the store in some cases could approach 10% of costs. --Thus, the cost of labor to support the Donation of food would be nearly paid for.

FREE THE SPEWING DICKS! FREE THEM ALL!

For the sake of argument here, I hold the following to be true:

- The premise that men and women should be equal only makes sense if you are talking to a feminist.
- It is not the case that women and men are equal. They have different roles and responsibilities.
- Having a baby or not is her choice. It is basically deciding what to do with her body or not.
- A woman having a baby is not putting society on the hook, it has a net positive effect on society once the baby becomes a productive adult member.
- Women always bear a disproportionate portion of the cost in time of parenthood.
- The role of men in every society is to provide resources for the society to perpetuate itself, i.e. share resources with mothers who are spending their times on the child rearing task.
- It is obvious that men would benefit greatly from denying this support role and just keeping resources for themselves to enjoy life.
- Thus society needs a mechanism to force men to contribute their due whether through marriage or child support. If men could opt out of child support, then I would say all childless adults should pay a special tax as a compensation that would used to help single parents.

Discuss.

BTW, if a man consents to responsibility for the baby, he should be held to it. I'm not suggesting that men be able to give up responsibility after accepting it.

The key word is consent. For a woman to have a baby without the man's consent should free the man from forced payments. You would not force a woman to have a baby without her consent, so you should not force a man to be financially responsible for it without his consent.

Ideally, we'd all have children in normal marriages and none of this would matter. The problems start when women demand to have greater rights than men, as they do now.

Heraclitusstudent says

Thus society needs a mechanism to force men to contribute their whether through marriage or child support

So therefore you also agree than society needs a mechanism to force women to have babies, right? ;-)

Probably you don't agree to that. Just to forcing men to pay.