patrick.net

marcus says

We have no idea how the laws of nature work that allow us to feel that we experience a conscious (decision making) self

Consciousness does not imply free will, and free will does not imply consciousness. We do not have to know anything about consciousness in order to rule out the possibility that will is free. Just think about what "free will" or "will that is free" actually means. Free from what? Free from being determined by the laws of nature. That's what free will means. Nothing caused in the universe is caused by anything but the laws of nature, by definition. Ergo, free will cannot exist. It's existence would be, by definition, a violation of the laws of nature, whatever those laws are. We don't have to know any of the laws of nature to know that free will does not exist because it would have to violate whatever natural laws did exist.

This is indisputable deductive reasoning. It flows directly from the definition. A priori logic is all that is required.

Dan8267 says

This does not contradict the fact that many people commit abuse because of the false belief in free will. Furthermore, those Christians would not suddenly become sadists if they stopped believing in free will. Is the belief in free will the only reason you don't rape your own children to death? I think not. So the belief in free will is not a net gain.

Do you think this is a good argument ? I only stated the obvious fact that you can not generalize that people that believe in free will are cruel. I don't see a compelling argument or even a slightly reasonable argument that belief in free will is a net negative. You have one example of how it can SOMETIMES can be negative.

Also, on a somewhat unrelated note, there are theories out there that sometimes being vindictive towards those that do us harm is actually part of our genetic programming. This was discussed on an NPR program yesterday. This would presumably be independent of belief in free will.

Dan8267 says

Consciousness does not imply free will, and free will does not imply consciousness

Correct. But consciousness is a part of the laws of nature that you assume can be parameterized to make us such a deterministic machine. We don't know that when we reflect on a decision and bring all the rational thought, emotion, ego, and various other factors into consideration, that this conscious and self conscious process happens as you see it as strictly a function of all physical, historical, and environmental inputs. Possibly there are laws that even involve factors outside of the 3 dimensional reality we usually confine our analysis to, that we do not understand at all. We just don't know what we don't know. Clearly of the many things we don't know, some of these pertain to consciousness.

I'll admit that not having your definition of free will seems likely. But I still know that we don't know.

marcus says

Do you think this is a good argument ?

I think it thoroughly disproves your implication that the false belief in free will does not have a downside.

marcus says

I only stated the obvious fact that you can not generalize that people that believe in free will are cruel.

It is obvious that I did not say anything that remotely implies that all or even most people who believe in free will are cruel. This is a straw man argument.

What I said was that free will causes many people to do cruel things because they believe their victims deserve it. This is empirically true. I could spend the next four hours listing example after example. Do you really want to try to refute this?

marcus says

You have one example of how it can SOMETIMES can be negative.

It's not a rare example. Every second of every day millions of people around the world are victimized by this negative. That's not trivial.

Right now, as we are having this conversation, countless people are being raped by prison guards because "they deserve it". And yes, I mean rape.

marcus says

Also, on a somewhat unrelated note, there are theories out there that sometimes being vindictive towards those that do us harm is actually part of our genetic programming.

Of course it is. It was a strategy that worked in the Stone Age, when you could benefit your genetic code by killing off rivals, sexual or otherwise. It doesn't work in the modern age. The entire problem with conservatives is that they still use a Stone Age mindset. Don't be like them.

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marcus says

This would presumably be independent of belief in free will.

Of course it is, but this is irrelevant. The rationalize argument that bad people deserve to suffer is the problem I mentioned so many times, and that is related to the false belief in free will.

marcus says

Possibly there are laws that even involve factors outside of the 3 dimensional reality we usually confine our analysis to, that we do not understand at all.

Whether we know any, nonetheless all, of the laws of nature are irrelevant. We still know that free will would require a violation of the laws of nature, by definition, and therefore cannot exist.

Dan8267 says

It's not a rare example. Every second of every day millions of people around the world are victimized by this negative. That's not trivial.

The flaw in this argument is that you assume that somehow cruel vindictive assholes become enlightened kind and compassionate once they understand we have no free will. That's absurd. We have plenty of available knowledge that have nothing to do with whether you believe in free will, that could just as easily help these assholes become more compassionate, kinder, more understanding, and less hateful and violent.

You don't have to believe there is zero free will in order to to understand that many circumstances outside of ones control lead them to be who they are. The issue here is compassion, which is also independent of free will, but apparently dependent (to some degree) on whether we believe we have free will.

Dan8267 says

Of course Joe is going to save the toddler because his morality demands it. That morality came from evolution and is implemented in his brain by atoms that mindlessly follow QED. It is predestined that Joe would save the toddler. Joe would always have saved the toddler.

Free will does not imply morality, nor does morality imply free will.

Harris himself in one podcast says "morality is the question of what to do next". If you cannot make a choice, if everything will happen regardless of what you want, then this question doesn't arise because you won't choose what to do next: You're just an automaton reacting to stimuli. Nothing you do is a moral choice. It's all a chain of cause-effects. You can never change anything, nor be blamed for anything because you have not changed anything.

This defeats utterly the very definition of moral.

Heraclitusstudent says

But the question is: did it matter what Joe wanted? Did it matter what he thought he should do?

And the answer is a resounding YES. It changed the outcome.

Does it matter that choices are done in a deterministic fashion?

The answer is: for all practical purposes, absolutely NOT.

That's all there is to this question.

You are not answering these points: Does it matter what we want? What we think we should do?
Why would it matter to us the manner in which we make choices? Deterministic or not.

Dan8267 says

It ultimately comes down to this. Do you believe that good or evil works better? Which results in a better quality of life? I believe good does.

Does it matter what you believe? I thought it's all a chain of cause and effects, neurons firing and we cannot deviate from a pre-ordained path.
In that case explain why your belief in good matters.

marcus says

The flaw in this argument is that you assume that somehow cruel vindictive assholes become enlightened kind and compassionate once they understand we have no free will. That's absurd.

I don't assume they will become lovey-dovey, but the evidence presented in the videos above does show that the excuse that people have free will makes it easier for people to be vindictive against real or imagined slights. It certainly affects the sentences passed by judges in the U.S. One only has to look at the distinction between people of sound mind vs less than sound mind to see that.

marcus says

zero free will

Free will can't be throttled. Even a tiny bit of it would wholesale violate the laws of nature.

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

It ultimately comes down to this. Do you believe that good or evil works better? Which results in a better quality of life? I believe good does.

Does it matter what you believe? I thought it's all a chain of cause and effects, neurons firing and we cannot deviate from a pre-ordained path.

In that case explain why your belief in good matters.

There are no contradictions in my statements.

A person acts on his beliefs. That doesn't imply free will. Of course it matters what a person believes regardless of whether or not that belief and the resulting actions are preordained. Beliefs influence will, but will is not free.

Dan8267 says

A person acts on his beliefs. That doesn't imply free will. Of course it matters what a person believes regardless of whether or not that belief and the resulting actions are preordained. Beliefs influence will, but will is not free.

So let me get this straight, a person's beliefs, influence his/her choices and dictates what this person does, even if all this is purely deterministic?

Now... that sure sounds like what I have been arguing this entire thread...

And of course this person beliefs and will are the results of:
- the wiring of the brain resulting from genes and personal history
- the knowledge, and education of this person
- his/her personal history and experience
- the preferences of this person,
- and moral education of this person
...
i.e. all the things we would identify with. All the things that define who we are as a person.

When we say WE make choices, WE have agency, WE do whatever we want, this is exactly what we mean.

The fact that all this happens in a deterministic way is a second order proposition which is not only profoundly irrelevant to the experience we have making these choices. In fact this second order statement changes ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about what is practically and functionally happening here.

If you think the person cannot do certain things because his/her will is not free, then, by all means, tell us what things this person cannot do because of the absence of "free" will.

Heraclitusstudent says

So let me get this straight, a person's beliefs, influence his/her choices and dictates what this person does, even if all this is purely deterministic?

Of course, and that's because the person's beliefs are also deterministic.

Heraclitusstudent says

Now... that sure sounds like what I have been arguing this entire thread...

That may have been what you meant. It's not what you said. Language matters.

There are no "special layers" in nature that are superior to others and that implement things that lower layer's don't. Psychology, biology, and chemistry are just abstractions of physics. Those "layers" are artificial constructs for the convenience of human understanding. In reality, it's all a particle soup. Everything that happens in psychology happens because of particles undergoing four interactions: the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, the electromagnetic force, and gravity. Everything you think, feel, or do is a direct result of these and only these four interactions.

Heraclitusstudent says

WE make choices

No shit, but the will behind those choices is not free.

Heraclitusstudent says

WE have agency

No shit, but that does not mean our will is free.

Heraclitusstudent says

WE do whatever we want

No shit, but what we want is determined by preconditions. Our desires are also preordained. There is no freedom to deviate from what the laws of nature ultimately cause you to want.

Nothing you said above in any way contradicts the cold, hard fact that will is not the least bit free.

Heraclitusstudent says

If you think the person cannot do certain things because his/her will is not free, then, by all means, tell us what things this person cannot do because of the absence of "free" will.

The lack of free will does not mean you "cannot do things". It means whatever you do is what you had to do given the arrangement of the particle soup that is our universe.

You have will. That will is not free from causality. The laws of nature, four interactions of particles, determines what you will do. You cannot deviate from what you would have done. That means, by definition of free will, you do not have free will. Free will violates natural laws by definition of free will. Free will is precisely making decisions that deviate from what those atoms in your body are suppose to do according to the laws of nature. You cannot get around this conundrum because it is absolute deductive logic. You would have an easier time proving that the square root of two is a rational number.

Dan8267 says

That may have been what you meant. It's not what you said. Language matters.

There aren't that many ways to understand that "we are making choices in a deterministic fashion" and "these choices influence the path of physical events".
Of course, assuming you are not dense as a rock or deliberately using the worse possible interpretation of what I'm saying.

Dan8267 says

There are no "special layers" in nature that are superior to others and that implement things that lower layer's don't. Psychology, biology, and chemistry are just abstractions of physics. Those "layers" are artificial constructs for the convenience of human understanding. In reality, it's all a particle soup.

This is what a layer is: an abstraction of the layers below it. And when I say "We make a choice" (which you now agree on) it's not something that is apparent if you look at the particle soup. It is something that is apparent only because we look at higher layer. And this is in fact the layer we consciously experience.

So layers matter.

Dan8267 says

Our desires are also preordained.

This kind of sentence is meaningless because events in our lives such as "there is a toddler drowning in a shallow pool on the side of the road on your way to work" are basically, if not random, then random enough that calling them "preordained" doesn't reflect practical reality. And same is true for our decisions. The re-entrant nature of our decision making, means chaos, which means anything could come out of it based on minor and apriori irrelevant variations in our state of mind: "preordained" doesn't reflect practical reality.

Dan8267 says

The lack of free will does not mean you "cannot do things". It means whatever you do is what you had to do given the arrangement of the particle soup that is our universe.

You have will. That will is not free from causality. The laws of nature, four interactions of particles, determines what you will do. You cannot deviate from what you would have done. That means, by definition of free will, you do not have free will. Free will violates natural laws by definition of free will.

Ok so I can do whatever "the deterministic apparatus (brain) I identify with" wants.

The question is: assuming I had freewill based on your definition, i.e. violating the laws of physics, how would my experience be any different than the experience I do have?

And if there aren't any practical difference for us then why is the distinction between "deterministic" and "non-deterministic" so important in your definition of freewill?

Heraclitusstudent says

Of course, assuming you are not dense as a rock or deliberately using the worse possible interpretation of what I'm saying.

Actually, I go through great lengths to interpret what you say as accurately as possible. It serves no purpose to me to use a straw man argument. Convincing people means nothing if they are convinced for the wrong reasons. I believe in truth. That is all that matters to me in these conversations. And the truth can withstand any challenge, and so it fears nothing. It requires no deception or manipulation to defend itself. You really don't get my worldview, and your personality will probably prevent you from ever doing so. But here's a summary of it, and by the way, you're Wesley in this example.

www.youtube.com/embed/8W0ff2Xns5g

Heraclitusstudent says

"We make a choice" (which you now agree on)

I never said we didn't make choices. I frequently refer to humans as "deterministic sentient decision making engines".

Choice is not free will. Choice isn't even will. And will, although it clearly exists, isn't free. Will is bounded by the physical apparatus that implements it, and that apparatus is not free to deviate from the laws of nature.

Heraclitusstudent says

So layers matter.

Whether or not layers matter for x, y, or z doesn't matter to the question do we have free will. I'm not saying layers are useless. I'm saying adding layers does not introduce a violation of the laws of nature as required by free will. I don't see why this is a difficult concept to grasp.

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Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

Our desires are also preordained.

This kind of sentence is meaningless because events in our lives such as "there is a toddler drowning in a shallow pool on the side of the road on your way to work" are basically, if not random, then random enough that calling them "preordained" doesn't reflect practical reality.

It is highly questionable whether or not true randomness exists in the universe or could even exist. You have never understood the difference between the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics. Nor have you ever understood that there are other interpretations such as Pilot Wave theory that are also perfectly consistent with all known quantum behavior.

But even if true randomness exists, it does not imply free will. Will is not random, and the randomness is not freedom. Furthermore to argue that random collapsing of quantum wave functions creates free will would require that a DOS-level computer from 1982 that's in orbit around the Earth has orders of magnitude more free will than human beings because it is orders of magnitude more affected by quantum events like the emissions of cosmic rays. So unless you are going to argue that computer has more free will then you, then using the Copenhagen Interpretation as bullshit room for free will is disingenuous and contradictory. Clearly, not even you believe that 1982 computer has vastly more free will than you do.

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Heraclitusstudent says

assuming I had freewill based on your definition

It's not my definition. It's the definition. More importantly, a word exists solely to reference a concept. What we call that concept is irrelevant. I'm not going to debate you on what words you want to use. I'm here only to debate the underlying concept. If you deviate from the definition that everyone else has been using for thousands of years, then you are not debating the concept presented in this thread. The concept that every single video above discusses, not just the Sam Harris video.

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Heraclitusstudent says

The question is: assuming I had freewill based on your definition, i.e. violating the laws of physics, how would my experience be any different than the experience I do have?

And if there aren't any practical difference for us then why is the distinction between "deterministic" and "non-deterministic" so important in your definition of freewill?

It's not clear what you are trying to ask, but as usual, I'll try to figure it out as best as I can. I think what you are asking is,

How would a person behave differently if he actually had free will. For example, say two atom-by-atom, particle-by-particle, copies of a person and everything else in a closed environment were completely and absolutely identical in every way -- the laws of physics prevent us from making this so, but they don't technically prevent it from happening -- except that one had free will and the other didn't. How would their behavior diverge in ways that two copies without free will would not?

It is impossible to answer that question because the very notion of free requires a violation of causality. If causality is violated, one cannot answer what is the effect of a cause.

What I can say is that, if there were an infinite number of finite universes, i.e. universes with limited mass-energy such as our own, constructed randomly then there would be an infinite number of identical copies of every universe including our own. In the set of identical universes that are identical at some time T0, all universes would be identical at time T1 > T0. That means every decision you made in one of these universes, your copy would have made in all others in that set. You may not like that answer, but it's the truth.

I don't think we live in such a multiverse, but causality would require that free will cannot exist in any of the universes.

Also, the above was covered early in this thread in the following video.

Dan8267 says

www.youtube.com/embed/WDZaUu-st0Y

The bottom line is that since we are physical beings in a physical universe, free will would have to be implemented as a physical mechanism and that physical mechanism would have to violate the laws of physics. This is a contradiction. We don't live in a universe that tolerates contradictions. If we did, all of math and logic would be invalid and our universe would be completely unintelligible. The most beautiful thing about our universe is that it is self-consistent.

Dan8267 says

Whether or not layers matter for x, y, or z doesn't matter to the question do we have free will. I'm not saying layers are useless. I'm saying adding layers does not introduce a violation of the laws of nature as required by free will. I don't see why this is a difficult concept to grasp.

And I perfectly grasp it. Since I never said at any point in the discussion that layers or choice or whatever, actually introduce a violation of the laws of nature, I don't know why you keep harping on this. Yes this is your definition of freewill, which I'm contesting hence this discussion. If you are so stuck on your position that you are unwilling to consider an argument just because it deviates from your preconceived belief then you don't believe in truth and are incapable of a rational discussion.

I'll say it again: layers matter BECAUSE this is only way we can look at concepts like "choice", or "will", or "belief". We don't look at these concepts as a soup of atom. We couldn't understand them as soup of atoms. We experience them as something happening on a layer above the soup of atom. Therefore trying to discuss these as soup of atom is unlikely to produce any meaningful argument.

Dan8267 says

It is impossible to answer that question because the very notion of free requires a violation of causality. If causality is violated, one cannot answer what is the effect of a cause.

This is funny because you said above:

Dan8267 says

it's not what philosophers, priests, popes, and the average person means by free will.

And you insisted heavily that these people know specifically what they mean by freewill, and they mean your definition, not mine.
I.e. They know freewill is not something deterministic.
And obviously many of them: priests, pope, and many people think we have it.

Now, you are telling us that we couldn't even tell if the freewill these people are talking about is there or not?

If this is the case then you have to admit that having freewill by my definition, or having freewill by your definition, has not practical implication and therefore no relevance whatsoever to our experiences as human beings.

Knowing our thought are deterministic, is sort of like knowing life is carbon based. It's something you learn in books and stop thinking about. For all practical purposes, we are free to do whatever we want, and whether you call it freewill or not, it works like freewill.

Heraclitusstudent says

Since I never said at any point in the discussion that layers or choice or whatever, actually introduce a violation of the laws of nature, I don't know why you keep harping on this.

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to. That is why your argument is wrong.

Heraclitusstudent says

Yes this is your definition of freewill, which I'm contesting hence this discussion.

1. It's not my definition. It is what is meant by the term as it has been used throughout history.
2. This thread isn't a debate on how you want to define the term. It is a debate on the concept behind the term regardless of what you want to call it.
3. If you have such a hang up about calling it free will then call it "ass boogers" for all I care. The subject of the thread is still that concept. Humans don't have ass boogers. Neither does anything else in the universe. Happy? (But don't think I'm going to accept you repurposing the term free will so that you can confuse people into thinking the original concept is valid because the concept behind your new definition is. They aren't the same thing.)

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Heraclitusstudent says

Now, you are telling us that we couldn't even tell if the freewill these people are talking about is there or not?

Search all you want for a contradiction in my statements. You won't find one. And this is clearly not a contradiction.

If the square root of two were a rational number, would the square root of three also be a rational number? This question is impossible to answer because it requires violating the consistency of the universe. It is impossible for the square root of two to be a rational number, so one cannot extrapolate what kind of number the cube root would be if the square root were rational. This does not mean we cannot prove the square root of two is NOT a rational number. This also should not be a difficult concept to understand, and it should be clear that what I'm saying here is true.

Heraclitusstudent says

For all practical purposes, we are free to do whatever we want, and whether you call it freewill or not, it works like freewill.

No. Freedom does not work like free will. It's an entirely different and unrelated concept. Freedom can and should exist. Free will cannot. Being able to do what you want has nothing to do with free will. You are conflating two completely irrelevant concepts.

You know what, this conversation has ran its course. No new arguments are being introduced. They are only being repeated.

It's time for anyone listening in on this conversation to casts their vote of which of us have made the more compelling argument and why.

Dan8267 says

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to. That is why your argument is wrong.

I never said anything like this. You need to go back and actually read what I wrote.
A higher layer obviously cannot you violate laws of nature when the layer below doesn't. This is a stupid interpretation.
However you can look at a soup of atom and think no choice is made anywhere: it's just a chain of causes-effects.
Whereas on a layer above that, clearly (deterministic) choices are made. If you don't look at the right level, you can easily completely miss what is happening.

Dan8267 says

No. Freedom does not work like free will. It's an entirely different and unrelated concept.

You can spend your life talking of a concept "ass boogers". If you can't even tell whether this concept is present or not, this is humongous waste of time.
In any case it has 0 practical implication.

On the other hand freewill is something people think they have, whether rightly or wrongly. It's something practical that has an impact on their lives.
So what are they talking about?

By virtue of the fact people think they have it, it can't be something so abstract that you can't tell if it's there.

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to. That is why your argument is wrong.

I never said anything like this. You need to go back and actually read what I wrote.

Heraclitusstudent says

The key concept here is that of layers. This is what Harris is missing.

Heraclitusstudent says

1 - there are 2 layers: the physical layer which (for the current purpose of describing the brain or a computer) is deterministic and so ON THIS LAYER there is no choice. The 2nd layer is the "conscious" layer at which a choice is made.

2 - What you are saying is the conscious choice layer is fully controlled by the physical layer. Ok but you make it sound like it is the end of it. But in fact the reverse is true as well: by executing a choice, the conscious layer changes the chain of cause-effects on the physical layer.

Heraclitusstudent says

The point: here different layers have different characteristics. The layer you use to look at a problem matters.

Heraclitusstudent says

What you say here is obvious and totally missed the point, which is that some concepts make sense only on certain layers.

[stupid comment limit]

And where in that did I say that the conscious layer is non-deterministic?
Never.

Heraclitusstudent says

This is what a layer is: an abstraction of the layers below it. And when I say "We make a choice" (which you now agree on) it's not something that is apparent if you look at the particle soup. It is something that is apparent only because we look at higher layer. And this is in fact the layer we consciously experience.

Heraclitusstudent says

So layers matter.

Heraclitusstudent says

I'll say it again: layers matter BECAUSE this is only way we can look at concepts like "choice", or "will", or "belief". We don't look at these concepts as a soup of atom. We couldn't understand them as soup of atoms. We experience them as something happening on a layer above the soup of atom. Therefore trying to discuss these as soup of atom is unlikely to produce any meaningful argument.

All this was said in the context that free will is meaningful in and only in your "higher layers". It's not, but if the "higher layers" created free will, they would have to violate the laws of nature. They cannot.

Heraclitusstudent says

And where in that did I say that the conscious layer is non-deterministic?

And where did I say that you said the conscious layer is non-deterministic?

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to. That is why your argument is wrong.

Heraclitusstudent says

You can spend your life talking of a concept "ass boogers". If you can't even tell whether this concept is present or not, this is humongous waste of time.

Bullshit. I can tell the square root of two cannot be represented as the ratio of two numbers even thous I cannot tell what a universe in which it could be would be like. And that is the point I made. I never said that we cannot tell that free will does not exist. I have proven it does not. I said since free will completely contradicts causality, one could not extrapolate the properties of a universe in which free will exists. This is a point that you have not refuted and cannot refute.

Dan8267 says

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to . That is why your argument is wrong.

here.

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to . That is why your argument is wrong.

here.

Honey, that statement doesn't imply that I am saying you said consciousness is non-deterministic. God, do I have to talk in terms of see Dick, see Jane?

Dan8267 says

I have proven it does not. I said since free will completely contradicts causality, one could not extrapolate the properties of a universe in which free will exists. This is a point that you have not refuted and cannot refute.

Except of course you said this is the definition of "ass boogers" that priests, pope and other people use, and they think they have it. No in fact they think they experience it, which is a stronger statement because no one can tell you that you are not experiencing what you are in fact experiencing.

If "ass boogers" doesn't exist, then what is it they experience?

Heraclitusstudent says

this is humongous waste of time.

Just like this thread. God's revenge on the atheists--He certainly has a sense of humor.

Dan8267 says

God

When did you become a believer?

Heraclitusstudent says

No in fact they think they experience it, which is a stronger statement because no one can tell you that you are not experiencing what you are in fact experiencing.

I can be certainly correct in stating that a person isn't experiencing what he thinks he's experience. If a person believes the government is using secret microwaves to control people's brains and that tin foil hat protects him, I can be quite confident that the person is not experiencing the government mind-control attempts he thinks he is.

Heraclitusstudent says

If "ass boogers" doesn't exist, then what is it they experience?

A delusion that they inflict upon themselves.

P N Dr Lo R says

When did you become a believer?

I haven't. I can still use expressions of speech.