patrick.net

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

Our desires are also preordained.

This kind of sentence is meaningless because events in our lives such as "there is a toddler drowning in a shallow pool on the side of the road on your way to work" are basically, if not random, then random enough that calling them "preordained" doesn't reflect practical reality.

It is highly questionable whether or not true randomness exists in the universe or could even exist. You have never understood the difference between the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics. Nor have you ever understood that there are other interpretations such as Pilot Wave theory that are also perfectly consistent with all known quantum behavior.

But even if true randomness exists, it does not imply free will. Will is not random, and the randomness is not freedom. Furthermore to argue that random collapsing of quantum wave functions creates free will would require that a DOS-level computer from 1982 that's in orbit around the Earth has orders of magnitude more free will than human beings because it is orders of magnitude more affected by quantum events like the emissions of cosmic rays. So unless you are going to argue that computer has more free will then you, then using the Copenhagen Interpretation as bullshit room for free will is disingenuous and contradictory. Clearly, not even you believe that 1982 computer has vastly more free will than you do.

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Heraclitusstudent says

assuming I had freewill based on your definition

It's not my definition. It's the definition. More importantly, a word exists solely to reference a concept. What we call that concept is irrelevant. I'm not going to debate you on what words you want to use. I'm here only to debate the underlying concept. If you deviate from the definition that everyone else has been using for thousands of years, then you are not debating the concept presented in this thread. The concept that every single video above discusses, not just the Sam Harris video.

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Heraclitusstudent says

The question is: assuming I had freewill based on your definition, i.e. violating the laws of physics, how would my experience be any different than the experience I do have?

And if there aren't any practical difference for us then why is the distinction between "deterministic" and "non-deterministic" so important in your definition of freewill?

It's not clear what you are trying to ask, but as usual, I'll try to figure it out as best as I can. I think what you are asking is,

How would a person behave differently if he actually had free will. For example, say two atom-by-atom, particle-by-particle, copies of a person and everything else in a closed environment were completely and absolutely identical in every way -- the laws of physics prevent us from making this so, but they don't technically prevent it from happening -- except that one had free will and the other didn't. How would their behavior diverge in ways that two copies without free will would not?

It is impossible to answer that question because the very notion of free requires a violation of causality. If causality is violated, one cannot answer what is the effect of a cause.

What I can say is that, if there were an infinite number of finite universes, i.e. universes with limited mass-energy such as our own, constructed randomly then there would be an infinite number of identical copies of every universe including our own. In the set of identical universes that are identical at some time T0, all universes would be identical at time T1 > T0. That means every decision you made in one of these universes, your copy would have made in all others in that set. You may not like that answer, but it's the truth.

I don't think we live in such a multiverse, but causality would require that free will cannot exist in any of the universes.

Also, the above was covered early in this thread in the following video.

Dan8267 says

www.youtube.com/embed/WDZaUu-st0Y

The bottom line is that since we are physical beings in a physical universe, free will would have to be implemented as a physical mechanism and that physical mechanism would have to violate the laws of physics. This is a contradiction. We don't live in a universe that tolerates contradictions. If we did, all of math and logic would be invalid and our universe would be completely unintelligible. The most beautiful thing about our universe is that it is self-consistent.

Dan8267 says

Whether or not layers matter for x, y, or z doesn't matter to the question do we have free will. I'm not saying layers are useless. I'm saying adding layers does not introduce a violation of the laws of nature as required by free will. I don't see why this is a difficult concept to grasp.

And I perfectly grasp it. Since I never said at any point in the discussion that layers or choice or whatever, actually introduce a violation of the laws of nature, I don't know why you keep harping on this. Yes this is your definition of freewill, which I'm contesting hence this discussion. If you are so stuck on your position that you are unwilling to consider an argument just because it deviates from your preconceived belief then you don't believe in truth and are incapable of a rational discussion.

I'll say it again: layers matter BECAUSE this is only way we can look at concepts like "choice", or "will", or "belief". We don't look at these concepts as a soup of atom. We couldn't understand them as soup of atoms. We experience them as something happening on a layer above the soup of atom. Therefore trying to discuss these as soup of atom is unlikely to produce any meaningful argument.

Dan8267 says

It is impossible to answer that question because the very notion of free requires a violation of causality. If causality is violated, one cannot answer what is the effect of a cause.

This is funny because you said above:

Dan8267 says

it's not what philosophers, priests, popes, and the average person means by free will.

And you insisted heavily that these people know specifically what they mean by freewill, and they mean your definition, not mine.
I.e. They know freewill is not something deterministic.
And obviously many of them: priests, pope, and many people think we have it.

Now, you are telling us that we couldn't even tell if the freewill these people are talking about is there or not?

If this is the case then you have to admit that having freewill by my definition, or having freewill by your definition, has not practical implication and therefore no relevance whatsoever to our experiences as human beings.

Knowing our thought are deterministic, is sort of like knowing life is carbon based. It's something you learn in books and stop thinking about. For all practical purposes, we are free to do whatever we want, and whether you call it freewill or not, it works like freewill.

Heraclitusstudent says

Since I never said at any point in the discussion that layers or choice or whatever, actually introduce a violation of the laws of nature, I don't know why you keep harping on this.

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to. That is why your argument is wrong.

Heraclitusstudent says

Yes this is your definition of freewill, which I'm contesting hence this discussion.

1. It's not my definition. It is what is meant by the term as it has been used throughout history.
2. This thread isn't a debate on how you want to define the term. It is a debate on the concept behind the term regardless of what you want to call it.
3. If you have such a hang up about calling it free will then call it "ass boogers" for all I care. The subject of the thread is still that concept. Humans don't have ass boogers. Neither does anything else in the universe. Happy? (But don't think I'm going to accept you repurposing the term free will so that you can confuse people into thinking the original concept is valid because the concept behind your new definition is. They aren't the same thing.)

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Heraclitusstudent says

Now, you are telling us that we couldn't even tell if the freewill these people are talking about is there or not?

Search all you want for a contradiction in my statements. You won't find one. And this is clearly not a contradiction.

If the square root of two were a rational number, would the square root of three also be a rational number? This question is impossible to answer because it requires violating the consistency of the universe. It is impossible for the square root of two to be a rational number, so one cannot extrapolate what kind of number the cube root would be if the square root were rational. This does not mean we cannot prove the square root of two is NOT a rational number. This also should not be a difficult concept to understand, and it should be clear that what I'm saying here is true.

Heraclitusstudent says

For all practical purposes, we are free to do whatever we want, and whether you call it freewill or not, it works like freewill.

No. Freedom does not work like free will. It's an entirely different and unrelated concept. Freedom can and should exist. Free will cannot. Being able to do what you want has nothing to do with free will. You are conflating two completely irrelevant concepts.

You know what, this conversation has ran its course. No new arguments are being introduced. They are only being repeated.

It's time for anyone listening in on this conversation to casts their vote of which of us have made the more compelling argument and why.

Dan8267 says

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to. That is why your argument is wrong.

I never said anything like this. You need to go back and actually read what I wrote.
A higher layer obviously cannot you violate laws of nature when the layer below doesn't. This is a stupid interpretation.
However you can look at a soup of atom and think no choice is made anywhere: it's just a chain of causes-effects.
Whereas on a layer above that, clearly (deterministic) choices are made. If you don't look at the right level, you can easily completely miss what is happening.

Dan8267 says

No. Freedom does not work like free will. It's an entirely different and unrelated concept.

You can spend your life talking of a concept "ass boogers". If you can't even tell whether this concept is present or not, this is humongous waste of time.
In any case it has 0 practical implication.

On the other hand freewill is something people think they have, whether rightly or wrongly. It's something practical that has an impact on their lives.
So what are they talking about?

By virtue of the fact people think they have it, it can't be something so abstract that you can't tell if it's there.

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to. That is why your argument is wrong.

I never said anything like this. You need to go back and actually read what I wrote.

Heraclitusstudent says

The key concept here is that of layers. This is what Harris is missing.

Heraclitusstudent says

1 - there are 2 layers: the physical layer which (for the current purpose of describing the brain or a computer) is deterministic and so ON THIS LAYER there is no choice. The 2nd layer is the "conscious" layer at which a choice is made.

2 - What you are saying is the conscious choice layer is fully controlled by the physical layer. Ok but you make it sound like it is the end of it. But in fact the reverse is true as well: by executing a choice, the conscious layer changes the chain of cause-effects on the physical layer.

Heraclitusstudent says

The point: here different layers have different characteristics. The layer you use to look at a problem matters.

Heraclitusstudent says

What you say here is obvious and totally missed the point, which is that some concepts make sense only on certain layers.

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And where in that did I say that the conscious layer is non-deterministic?
Never.

Heraclitusstudent says

This is what a layer is: an abstraction of the layers below it. And when I say "We make a choice" (which you now agree on) it's not something that is apparent if you look at the particle soup. It is something that is apparent only because we look at higher layer. And this is in fact the layer we consciously experience.

Heraclitusstudent says

So layers matter.

Heraclitusstudent says

I'll say it again: layers matter BECAUSE this is only way we can look at concepts like "choice", or "will", or "belief". We don't look at these concepts as a soup of atom. We couldn't understand them as soup of atoms. We experience them as something happening on a layer above the soup of atom. Therefore trying to discuss these as soup of atom is unlikely to produce any meaningful argument.

All this was said in the context that free will is meaningful in and only in your "higher layers". It's not, but if the "higher layers" created free will, they would have to violate the laws of nature. They cannot.

Heraclitusstudent says

And where in that did I say that the conscious layer is non-deterministic?

And where did I say that you said the conscious layer is non-deterministic?

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to. That is why your argument is wrong.

Heraclitusstudent says

You can spend your life talking of a concept "ass boogers". If you can't even tell whether this concept is present or not, this is humongous waste of time.

Bullshit. I can tell the square root of two cannot be represented as the ratio of two numbers even thous I cannot tell what a universe in which it could be would be like. And that is the point I made. I never said that we cannot tell that free will does not exist. I have proven it does not. I said since free will completely contradicts causality, one could not extrapolate the properties of a universe in which free will exists. This is a point that you have not refuted and cannot refute.

Dan8267 says

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to . That is why your argument is wrong.

here.

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to . That is why your argument is wrong.

here.

Honey, that statement doesn't imply that I am saying you said consciousness is non-deterministic. God, do I have to talk in terms of see Dick, see Jane?

Dan8267 says

I have proven it does not. I said since free will completely contradicts causality, one could not extrapolate the properties of a universe in which free will exists. This is a point that you have not refuted and cannot refute.

Except of course you said this is the definition of "ass boogers" that priests, pope and other people use, and they think they have it. No in fact they think they experience it, which is a stronger statement because no one can tell you that you are not experiencing what you are in fact experiencing.

If "ass boogers" doesn't exist, then what is it they experience?

Heraclitusstudent says

this is humongous waste of time.

Just like this thread. God's revenge on the atheists--He certainly has a sense of humor.

Dan8267 says

God

When did you become a believer?

Heraclitusstudent says

No in fact they think they experience it, which is a stronger statement because no one can tell you that you are not experiencing what you are in fact experiencing.

I can be certainly correct in stating that a person isn't experiencing what he thinks he's experience. If a person believes the government is using secret microwaves to control people's brains and that tin foil hat protects him, I can be quite confident that the person is not experiencing the government mind-control attempts he thinks he is.

Heraclitusstudent says

If "ass boogers" doesn't exist, then what is it they experience?

A delusion that they inflict upon themselves.

P N Dr Lo R says

When did you become a believer?

I haven't. I can still use expressions of speech.

Dan8267 says

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to . That is why your argument is wrong.

here.

Honey, that statement doesn't imply that I am saying you said consciousness is non-deterministic. God, do I have to talk in terms of see Dick, see Jane?

Yes this statement implies that I tried to make the case that adding the notion the layers could somehow create freewill passing YOUR definition.
You can't even conceive that I try to make an argument for something different than YOUR definition.

Dan8267 says

Heraclitusstudent says

If "ass boogers" doesn't exist, then what is it they experience?

A delusion that they inflict upon themselves.

So you use their definition, and insist this is the right definition, while claiming they are deluded about what they are talking about.

Nice trick.

Heraclitusstudent says

Yes this statement implies that I tried to make the case that adding the notion the layers could somehow create freewill passing YOUR definition.

No it doesn't. And making that assertion doesn't make it true.

Heraclitusstudent says

So you use their definition, and insist this is the right definition, while claiming they are deluded about what they are talking about.

Dan8267 says

Heraclitusstudent says

We can debate endlessly on which definition is the right one.

The question is meaningless. There is no such thing as a right definition or a wrong definition. It's the meaning of statements that are either true or false.

You should stop repeating yourself. If you want to open a thread discussing the affects of consciousness on decision making, then do so. This thread is about the concept of free will as shown in the video of the original post. You are simply off topic.

Dan8267 says

If you want to open a thread discussing the affects of consciousness on decision making, then do so. This thread is about the concept of free will as shown in the video of the original post. You are simply off topic.

In other words "Anything outside my preconceived beliefs is simply off-topic and I don't want to discuss with you. ". "But I believe in truth. ".

Dan8267 says

You are simply off topic.

Well you're the one who started it, I expect they got bored.

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

If you want to open a thread discussing the affects of consciousness on decision making, then do so. This thread is about the concept of free will as shown in the video of the original post. You are simply off topic.

In other words "Anything outside my preconceived beliefs is simply off-topic and I don't want to discuss with you. ". "But I believe in truth. ".

Bullshit. You are not even debating sincerely. The topic of this thread is clear. You are simply trying to play a game of bait and switch and I'm not falling for it. If you have nothing else to add the conversation, then simply stay silent.

Dan8267 says

Anything outside my preconceived beliefs

What he really means is anything, anything to keep it going...