patrick.net

Heraclitusstudent says

It may not mean the same as YOU mean, but there is nothing in the definition of choice that says the only way to make a choice is to violate the laws of physics.

So then, the only thing you are bitching about is that you want to use the term "free will" to refer to will that is not free. This does not change the fact that free will doesn't exist any more than if you renamed gorillas to "big foot" would mean that the big foot of all those photos exists.

Dan8267 says

Have you ever read a religious book in your life? Sorry, I can't teach you reading comprehension.

Very well Einstein show me a religious book that defines freewill as requiring non-deterministic choice.
I'll be waiting.

Dan8267 says

It is not an opinion that life exists in the Wolf 359 system. Either the statement is true or it is false, and it doesn't matter that you don't know which.

If you claim that, positively, there is life on the Wolf 359 system, it's an opinion. Until you prove that it is a fact.
11 of your posts above are just garbage.

Heraclitusstudent says

Jeezz.... Let's go back to basics: Google definition of choice:

choice: CHois/ noun noun: choice; plural noun: choices

1. an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.

Yes, and computers and amebas and viruses and volcano all make choices according to this definition. Unless you want to argue that there is one only possibility for whether or not a volcano explodes on a given day, in which case nothing makes choices, not even human beings.

Heraclitusstudent says

No a virus doesn't make a choice, as by the definition above.

Do amebas? If so, then show me the distinction between viruses, which you say don't, and amebas which you say do.

If not, then do earthworms? If so, then show me the distinction between amebas, which you say don't, and earthworms which you say do.

If not, then do flies? If so, then show me the distinction between earthworms, which you say don't, and flies which you say do.

If not, then do lizards? If so, then show me the distinction between flies, which you say don't, and lizards which you say do.

If not, then do dogs? If so, then show me the distinction between lizards, which you say don't, and dogs which you say do.

If not, then do monkeys? If so, then show me the distinction between dogs, which you say don't, and monkeys which you say do.

If not, then do chimps? If so, then show me the distinction between monkeys, which you say don't, and chimps which you say do.

If not, then do humans? If so, then show me the distinction between chimps, which you say don't, and humans which you say do.

If not, then you concede this argument.

Heraclitusstudent says

A virus doesn't consider consider alternatives nor pick one.

Of course viruses consider options and execute choices, just like computers do. A virus does this with the information processing power of its genetic code. It's genetic code is the decision maker. Same for every cell, both single celled organisms and cells part of multi-cellular organisms. Every cell in your body chooses whether or not to pump sodium out of itself. That requires decision making, even if not intelligent decision making, and, by definition, some degree of self-awareness. Not a mind like yours or mine, but definitely awareness of the self and the separation of the self from the environment. The fact that this is all automated is irrelevant. Your consciousness and decision making is also automated by the same laws of physics driving the atoms of the same elements of the periodic table. Your atoms, your parts, may be arranged in a different way, but they are obeying the exact same laws of physics.

Dan8267 says

Heraclitusstudent says

Jeezz.... Let's go back to basics: Google definition of choice:


choice: CHois/ noun noun: choice; plural noun: choices


1. an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.

Yes, and computers and amebas and viruses and volcano all make choices according to this definition.

Can we all agree that amebas viruses and volcano do not consider possibilities and pick one?
It's like talking to a door knob. Do you have 2 neurons capable of understanding a sentence?
Humans do consider and evaluate possible choices and pick one. Viruses don't.
Get it? They don't consider alternatives. They just don't. Therefore they are not making a choice.

Heraclitusstudent says

Well you are simply redefining the word "fact".

Honey, both definitions can be found in the dictionary and in common usage. And which definition we use for this conversation doesn't make a fucking difference. The truth remains that the statement "there is a marble in my pocket" is not an opinion simply because you don't know whether the statement is true or false.

Dan8267 says

Honey, both definitions can be found in the dictionary and in common usage. And which definition we use for this conversation doesn't make a fucking difference. The truth remains that the statement "there is a marble in my pocket" is not an opinion simply because you don't know whether the statement is true or false.

A truth claim about something you cannot know is an opinion. The claim above like checking there is a marble in your pocket.
12 of your posts above are just garbage with 0 impact on the argument I made.

Heraclitusstudent says

Unless you provide evidence, 10 of your posts above are just garbage.

I can make the statement men are more interested in one-night stands than women. You can choose not to believe that fact, but it doesn't make it any less true. You can also bitch that I'll never have a way of proving that statement beyond certainty because I can't directly access a person's thoughts. And the fact is, since you have decided that you don't want to accept the fact that people mean "supernatural, non-deterministic decision making" when they say "free will", there is no evidence that I or anyone else, even in principle, could present to you to convince you otherwise.

You cannot convince a person of a truth he chooses not to accept. Fox News watchers prove this every day. But that's your deficiency, not mine.

Heraclitusstudent says

Very well Einstein show me a religious book that defines freewill as requiring non-deterministic choice.

What are you expecting? A religious book with a glossary? Are you saying the only evidence you'll accept is if the fucking Bible has a glossary written in modern form that gives an explicit definition of the term written in a precise, modern manner?

If you cannot accept context as an indication of meaning then there is no hope for you.

However, I did find a page of the Bible that said,

This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, businesses, places, events and incidents are either the products of the author's imagination or used in a fictitious manner. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental.

Heraclitusstudent says

A truth claim about something you cannot know is an opinion.

Bullshit. You cannot know whether or not there is a marble in my pocket. That still does not make the statement "there is a marble in my pocket" an opinion. The statement is either true or false, and not both.

Dan8267 says

Of course viruses consider options and execute choices, just like computers do. A virus does this with the information processing power of its genetic code.

You are quite simply delirious.
The genetic code does NOT is not a representation of the world around the virus, nor the possible alternatives offered to it. There is no algorithm at work to consider the alternatives and likely consequences, nor to evaluate the desirability of these consequences. Therefore the virus is simply not making a choice according to the definition I gave, nor according to any commonly accepted definition of choice.

Humans can make choices, or computers, but not inanimate objects. Certainly not volcanoes or viruses.

Dan8267 says

I can make the statement men are more interested in one-night stands than women. You can choose not to believe that fact, but it doesn't make it any less true.

Bad analogy. We all know men are more interested in one-night stands than women. On the other we absolutely don't know for sure what people think on average about freewill in the context of time travel. You don't know it. I know you don't know it. Claiming this or that is not an argument, unless you can support it.

Just one more post of garbage non-reason thrown into a debate to refuse conceding a minor point and save your big ego.

Dan8267 says

What are you expecting? A religious book with a glossary?

You are the one that implied it would be obvious if I had read any religious book. So please enlighten me.

Heraclitusstudent says

Humans can make choices, or computers, but not inanimate objects. Certainly not volcanoes or viruses.

Any decision making apparatus that exists in any neural network, including your brain, can be replicated in a Turing machine. That Turing machine does not have to be an electrical computer. It could be completely mechanical, composed of gears and levers. Such a mechanical clockwork machine would make the exact same decisions you do and change those decisions when given different inputs in the exact same way you would. Whether or not it's practical to build such a machine is irrelevant. The fact that it's theoretically possible indicates that it has every bit as much free will as you. Either the clock has free will or you don't.

One could also use viruses or bacteria to implement logic gates and thus make a similar machine out of viruses or bacteria. This machine would also have every bit as much free will as you do.

Heraclitusstudent says

We all know men are more interested in one-night stands than women. On the other we absolutely don't know for sure what people think on average about freewill in the context of time travel. You don't know it. I know you don't know it.

I could just as easily assert that you don't know men are more interested in one-night stands and that I know you don't know it.

Dan8267 says

I could just as easily assert that you don't know men are more interested in one-night stands and that I know you don't know it.

If you know it then by all mean show me how you know it. Show me articles, studies, polls. Even testimonies and anecdotes.
Of course you don't have any of that.
You are just making a claim point blank and expect a free pass.
Garbage. The opposite of reason.

Heraclitusstudent says

You are the one that implied it would be obvious if I had read any religious book. So please enlighten me.

So in other words, you need me to show you someone else saying the same thing I'm saying because you just don't want to believe me.

www.youtube.com/embed/zC13itBJ_dM

www.youtube.com/embed/2wa3SRX0_DA

www.youtube.com/embed/dGd6g9041CI

www.youtube.com/embed/ZZMZSp2rgfM

Every person in the above videos use the term as I have, not as you are trying to. You might as well prove god by defining god as a harry asshole. Yes, many gods exist by that definition, but it's not the gods worship by anyone.

Dan8267 says

Any decision making apparatus that exists in any neural network, including your brain, can be replicated in a Turing machine. That Turing machine does not have to be an electrical computer. It could be completely mechanical, composed of gears and levers. Such a mechanical clockwork machine would make the exact same decisions you do and change those decisions when given different inputs in the exact same way you would. Whether or not it's practical to build such a machine is irrelevant. The fact that it's theoretically possible indicates that it has every bit as much free will as you. Either the clock has free will or you don't.

So now you are claiming that because 1 mechanical machine has a quality, then all machines have it.
Is that your level of logic?

Obviously, in your argument above, the machine emulating the brain has a representation of the world and the possible alternatives, and also has a process to evaluate these alternatives and pick the most desirable one. A clock doesn't have that. Your argument end there.

And another guy. If your thoughts and actions are controlled by forces, you don't have free will. In his case, he thinks those forces are directly created by his god, but his statements would apply to deterministic laws of physics.

www.youtube.com/embed/s4E7az5u-pQ

Dan8267 says

So in other words, you need me to show you someone else saying the same thing I'm saying because you just don't want to believe me.

I don't have time to watch 15 videos. Trying to baffle people by bombing the thread is not an argument.
If it says any about deterministic or non-deterministic choice, then by all means, quote it.

Heraclitusstudent says

So now you are claiming that because 1 mechanical machine has a quality, then all machines have it.

Do you really fucking believe I'm saying that, or are you just making a dishonest straw man argument?

Heraclitusstudent says

Obviously, in your argument above, the machine emulating the brain has a representation of the world and the possible alternatives, and as a process to evaluate these alternatives and pick the most desirable one. A clock doesn't have that. Your argument end there.

A deterministic (clock-like) computer can certainly have a representation of the world. You are still a deterministic decision maker. There is no freedom in you decision making. You are not free to choose any decision that the atoms in your body, brain, and environment didn't cause you to decide simply by following the laws of nature.

Heraclitusstudent says

I don't have time to watch 15 videos. Trying to baffle people by bombing the thread is not an argument.

So you demand evidence and then refuse to listen to it when presented. Look at the first minute of each video. That's all you need to do.

Heraclitusstudent says

If it says any about deterministic or non-deterministic choice, then by all means, quote it.

The videos say that your future is not written. That means non-deterministic choice. One of the video even tries to resolve the obvious conflict between that belief and the belief that god is omniscient. If god knows what you are going to do, you cannot choose otherwise or god does not know. God cannot be wrong.

Game, set, match. You are wrong. Just admit it.

Dan8267 says

A deterministic (clock-like) computer can certainly have a representation of the world. You are still a deterministic decision maker. There is no freedom in you decision making.

I don't disagree with this but this extremely misleading. The entire problem here is you are stuck on this notion that I can't escape determinism. But this is not the relevant point. Determinism can still lead me in pretty much any direction based on tiny variations in my brain.
No, the relevant factor is I make the choice I want based on criteria that are personal and local to my situation. And deterministic doesn't change that.

Dan8267 says

The videos say that your future is not written. That means non-deterministic choice.

All good so far because we are in a non deterministic universe.
Heraclitusstudent says

even a simple 3 body system with newton laws lead to solutions that are discontinuous after sufficient time. i.e. a tiny change in the start condition can lead to major change after enough time.

Heisenberg's uncertainty principle + chaos = non-deterministic universe.

Anything else?

Heraclitusstudent says

The entire problem here is you are stuck on this notion that I can't escape determinism.

Free will, by definition, is not deterministic. If your fate is already written, then you don't have free will. That's the entire point.

You just like the phrase free will and want people to keep using that phrase no matter what it means. Fine, define free will as an asshole. You now have free will. It doesn't mean your fate isn't already sealed.

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Heraclitusstudent says

Heisenberg's uncertainty principle + chaos = non-deterministic universe.

Anything else?

Dan8267 says

Nothing in what you are proposing is non-deterministic or non-predictable. You seem to now just be arguing nomenclature rather than anything to do with the nature of reality. As such, Sam Harris's point still stands. The decisions made by human beings are deterministic and could be, in principle, predicted with 100% accuracy ahead of time if sufficient knowledge about the configuration of all the atoms in a person and the person's immediate environment were known. And don't even bother with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle or the Copenhagen Interpretation because you don't have to go subatomic to have sufficient information. Hell, you could get perfect predictions in practice going no further than the cellular level, and you probably don't even have to go that far.

[fucking comment limit]

Even if you accepted the Copenhagen Interpretation, which is crap, you still don't get free will.
1. Your will isn't determine by quantum probabilities anymore than a perfect naked copy of Scarlett Johansson is going to materialize on my lap. Your decisions are entirely predictable and set by cellular-level events which are not subject to quantum mechanics. Cells are just too fucking big.
2. Random probability is NOT free will either. Although non-determinism is a necessary condition for free will, it is not a sufficient condition. If your choices are controlled by me rolling a pair of dice, then it's not your will even if the dice are truly random and non-deterministic.
3. If you accepted that quantum randomness creates free will then a DOS-level computer running in a satellite in orbit has quadrillions of times more free will than you do. After all, it is quadrillions of times more susceptible to quantum events like the release of a cosmic ray than anything in your brain. Are you willing to say that computer from 1982 running inside a 30-year-old satellite has more free will than you do?

All you are doing is searching for some room to bullshit. It's a disingenuous argument.

I'll leave out the comment on Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle which was only meant to answer the religious claim that that free will means it's not written. That it's not written is a physical fact. But it is totally irrelevant to what I'm saying here.

I admitted in my first post in that thread that the deterministic claim about free will is not wrong. So deterministic or not is not even the question here. All I said is that it is misleading and not the right layer on which the process should be considered.

Indeed:
1 - there are 2 layers: the physical layer which (for the current purpose of describing the brain or a computer) is deterministic and so ON THIS LAYER there is no choice. The 2nd layer is the "conscious" layer at which a choice is made. Obviously this layer, being based on top of the physical layer, is deterministic as well. But still functionally it is making a choice - be it a deterministic choice.

2 - What you are saying is the conscious choice layer is fully controlled by the physical layer. Ok but you make it sound like it is the end of it. But in fact the reverse is true as well: by executing a choice, the conscious layer changes the chain of cause-effects on the physical layer.

Heraclitusstudent says

But in fact the reverse is true as well: by executing a choice, the conscious layer changes the chain of cause-effects on the physical layer.

It doesn't matter whether or not you are conscious. Your choices are as settled as any non-conscious decision making engine's choices. Being conscious does not add anything. The bottom line is that what you are going to do tomorrow has already been written. You cannot alter that any more than a lizard, a virus, or a pebble could. Consciousness does not introduce any magic.

This is like saying: it doesn't matter that there are high level languages and APIs, all developers should code in machine language because that's all it is eventually.

Well, as human beings, are we living in a world of firing neurons, or are we on the freeway wondering whether to pass that car in front of us?
In the second description of the same thing, you are in fact making a decision and executing that decision . It doesn't fucking matter that this decision was a deterministic sequence of firing neurons.

Which description is the most relevant to our experience as human beings?

Heraclitusstudent says

This is like saying: it doesn't matter that there are high level languages and APIs, all developers should code in machine language because that's all it is eventually.

No, it's not at all like saying that. It is useful to use a high-level language because developer are more productive that way. However, a computer can't do anything with high-level source code that cannot be translated into its machine language. This translation can be done in many sophisticated ways including just-in-time compiling, but ultimately all software has to be executed on your Turing machine as instructions supported by that Turing machine.

Heraclitusstudent says

Well, as human beings, are we living in a world of firing neurons

There is nothing magical about neurons. Yes, they are fascinating devices, but they are not inherently different from traditional digital gates, telephone relays, or mechanical gears. You don't get some magical free will simply because your replace one kind of cog for another. The type of cog doesn't change that what you are going to do tomorrow has already been determined.

Heraclitusstudent says

It doesn't fucking matter that this decision was a deterministic sequence of firing neurons.

It doesn't matter that the decision was made by firing neurons as opposed to mechanical gears. However, the fact that the machinery is deterministic does mean there is no room for free will. Your fate is still predestined. The same internal state and the same external factors results in the same decisions.

[stupid comment limit]

Heraclitusstudent says

Which description is the most relevant to our experience of human beings?

I don't care. It has nothing to do with whether or not free will exists.

This is an interesting question, but it's clear from this discussion that "what does free will mean?" should be agreed upon first.

Neither question is as trivial to me as some want to make it.

Here are some other questions. What does random mean ? Doesn't random chance affect countless things in our environment which in turn affect everyone's decisions - even if physically we operate in a deterministic way relative to our state at any specific time ?

Heraclitusstudent says

But in fact the reverse is true as well: by executing a choice, the conscious layer changes the chain of cause-effects on the physical layer.

Heraclitusstudent makes a good point. For example when Sam Harris decides to spend a month in meditation which probably reconfigures some of the neural pathways or otherwise changes his brain physically (in minute or subtle ways) it's clear that his resolve or will power is a factor in following through with this. This may be largely deterministic at any an point along the way, but who is to say whether his consciousness or even the consciousness of others doesn't impact on his ability to stick to his plan

Dan8267 says

Heraclitusstudent says

Which description is the most relevant to our experience of human beings?

I don't care. It has nothing to do with whether or not free will exists.

Since again I already agreed that decisions are taken in a deterministic fashion in my first post, there is not much a discussion on that point. You're not following the plot here.

The question is which description of free will is more relevant to what we experience on a daily basis.

And obviously we don't experience the firing of neurons that leaves us no choice.
Instead we experience a world that we know, in which we anticipate and evaluate alternatives, in which we make choices, and which we execute these choices. This is the freewill people are used to. And it is real enough, in the sense that we do make these choices, and the rhetoric around the theme "we have no choice" is pointed at a different layer than our own experience.

Making choices in a deterministic fashion is not the same as not making choices.

Dan8267 says

There is nothing magical about neurons.

No one is arguing that.

marcus says

but it's clear from this discussion that "what does free will mean?" should be agreed upon first.

It's clear that Dan calls freewill something that has to be non-deterministic.
It's clear I call freewill the capacity for choice we experience on a daily basis.
We can debate endlessly on which definition is the right one.
The point here is that his definition leads to the belief we are not functionally making and executing choices, when in fact we are.
So what we experience as "our freewill" or "our capacity to choose", whatever you choose to call it, is real enough.

marcus says

This is an interesting question, but it's clear from this discussion that "what does free will mean?" should be agreed upon first.

The vocabulary you use is ultimately not important. It has no impact on the subject matter. The definition used in this discussion is what people throughout history meant by the term. I don't care to debate whether or not the term should be redefined for something more useful. I mean to demonstrate that the concept people have been clinging onto for the past 200,000 years is wrong. That is what is important.

marcus says

This may be largely deterministic at any an point along the way, but who is to say whether his consciousness or even the consciousness of others doesn't impact on his ability to stick to his plan

Whether his consciousness or even the consciousness of others impacts on his ability to stick to his plan does not in any way, shape, or form contradict determinism or allow for free will.

Heraclitusstudent says

The question is which description of free will is more relevant to what we experience on a daily basis.

Use a new term. The term free will is already taken by a concept hundreds of thousands of years old.

You could call this a cat.

But can you see how it would be confusing and counter-productive to do so?

If you want to define a new concept, assign it a new word. Why deliberately mislead your audience? Why make conversations about your new idea needlessly difficult?