patrick.net

There is no wall along the Mexican-Guatemala border. Yet, there are no Mexicans crossing over to Guatemala. Why? No jobs.

Dan8267 says

Actually, most illegal immigration and work isn't Mexicans sneaking over the boarder but rather being brought in to work on farms. The farm owners and their bought politicians then want those farmers to leave and new ones brought in so that the labor remains powerless and cheap.

@Dan8267 this is very interesting.

Are farm owners actually arranging or paying for illegals to be brought in?

Is there evidence of that?

rando says

Are farm owners actually arranging or paying for illegals to be brought in?

They don't have to be. The way to commit a crime and not be prosecuted for it is to have other people do the leg work while you just provide the financial incentives. Our society never prosecutes those who incentivize others to carry out crime even if the crimes would not exist at all if not for the incentives.

The owner class is above the law. We jail and deport the Mexican who illegal stays longer than the season he was given permission to work. We don't jail the farm owner who hires those illegal immigrants precisely because they cannot petition for better wages or living conditions, but it's those farm owners who are creating the problem.

It's like if a rich person didn't hire someone to assassinate Donald Trump but made it known that if someone did, he'd give that person ten million dollars for "unrelated" reasons. Not illegal because of the sneaky mechanism -- evidently one layer of indirection is all it takes to get around the law -- but certainly any justification for making an action illegal is also a justification for incentivizing that action illegal. The farm owner has far more influence on illegal immigration and working than the migrant farmer has.

Ultimately, illegal immigration is fundamentally an economic, not a political or social, problem. Thus it requires an economic solution.

Dan8267 says

There is no wall along the Mexican-Guatemala border. Yet, there are no Mexicans crossing over to Guatemala. Why? No jobs.

Stopped a bit prematurely didn't you?

No jobs, no wealth, no 1st world medical system that can't turn them away, no major liberal movement that is fighting for the rights of illegal Mexican immigrants in Guatemala... essentially no immigration problem because there's nothing to chase relative to where they are coming from.

That just furthers my point. The solution to massive migration and the illegal immigration problem is to properly align the selfish financial incentives of individuals, both the poor migrant worker and the lazy-ass farm owner, with the interests of society. People act on incentives. We humans -- hell, all life -- is inherently selfish. It's time to use the selfish nature of life for good rather than evil. This is possible only by aligning selfish interests with selfless interests. It all comes down to mechanics.

Yet, some people want to build a wall, persecute undocumented immigrants, clap their hands and say "done". Wasn't it so easy?

ddshutlz says

Yet, some people want to build a wall, persecute undocumented immigrants, clap their hands and say "done". Wasn't it so easy?

Simpsons explains human behavior.

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NuttBoxer says

If you cut off all incentive to border hop, employment, social services, medical care, schooling, housing, what need is there to still build a wall? If anyone still wants to come after all that is taken away, maybe they really do need asylum, and we shouldn't try to hinder their entrance.

Criminals would still come. They are the ones we need to stop first.

So if I want to be reasonably correct I would call you a racist?

@ddshutlz You should not be calling any other user anything on this forum.

Attacking the person and not his point is the very definition of ad hominem.

If you have an argument to make, please make it. If you just call users names, that helps nobody, and moves everyone further away from an amicable resolution to the argument.

Strategist says

Criminals would still come. They are the ones we need to stop first.

I assume you mean criminals on the run from Mexican authorities? If you eliminate 98% of the illegals crossing now, the criminal illegals who still cross to run away, will be pretty easy to spot and deport.

rando says

@ddshutlz You should not be calling any other user anything on this forum.

Shit, I've been calling people conservatives. That's the worse ad hominem attack.

I guess I can't call anyone racist, but I can make comments that are racist.

Yes, please attack the argument and not the person!

It's easy to attack people and call them names without actually making any counter-argument at all.

No one benefits from that. All discussion stops there. Name-calling is exactly what got Trump elected. So many people are sick of its utter pointlessness.

Let's actively try to understand each other's ideas instead.

rando says

Name-calling is exactly what got Trump elected.

I thought it was his huge hands.

NuttBoxer says

Strategist says

Criminals would still come. They are the ones we need to stop first.

I assume you mean criminals on the run from Mexican authorities? If you eliminate 98% of the illegals crossing now, the criminal illegals who still cross to run away, will be pretty easy to spot and deport.

No, i mean real criminals who come across the border for the sole purpose of committing crimes. The US is a rich country, lots of ways to make money illegally. Drugs, auto theft, burglaries, welfare fraud etc.

It's reasonably correct, since just over half of illegal immigrants are from Mexico:

In 2012, 52% were from Mexico, 15% from Central America, 12% from Asia, 6% from South America, 5% from the Caribbean, and another 5% from Europe and Canada.[4]

Let me tell you the dark secret of hiring illegals. It's not about saving money.

In fact, I hire them through a temp agency - meaning that I pay 2x per hour more than a regular full-time employee. That's right, every hour I pay the employee AND the temp agency. I'm paying the cost of two laborers for one illegal. FT employees get benefits, holiday pay, matched 401k, and the illegal STILL costs me more. Why? Because the temp agency is doing the work of falsifying e-verify and giving me plausible deniability. Okay, so why go through this at all? Let me give you an example:

I'm in charge of the widget machine. My boss wants me to increase throughput for this quarter. My biggest issue with the widget machine is that it's loaded to the hilt with safety features. Light curtains, estops, safety procs, deadman's switches and so on. Now, if I disable one of these safety features the widget machine will increase productivity, because it doesn't shut off when an operator pulls out parts. So let's say I tell Bubba or Tyrone, "hey I just disabled a safety feature, go stick your fucking hands in there please" they're going to Google the ACLU and sue me. Jesus is going to ask me, "is good?" And I'm going to reply "is good." And he's going to stick his fucking hands in there. Things will go great for about six months, and then one day Jesus will be a millisecond too slow on the draw and lose three fingers. Is this bad for me? No not really. Jesus doesn't really understand what happened to him. I can blame the whole thing on him actually. I tell OSHA that he disabled the safety features himself. Shit, I even have a paper he signed saying that he was trained to never ever, ever disable safety features! Jesus is going to get fired. No compensation. Sent back to Honduras. Do not collect 200 pesos.

This is what illegal immigration is for. Paying absurd amounts of money to sideskirt regulation and labor rights.

I tell OSHA that he disabled the safety features himself. Shit, I even have a paper he signed saying that he was trained to never ever, ever disable safety features! Jesus is going to get fired. No compensation. Sent back to Honduras. Do not collect 200 pesos.

Maybe the key is that a criminal alien is not going to go to the authorities or sue even if he gets injured.

We should allow illegals who turn in their employers to remain on a work visa.

True, but maybe it's a worthwhile deal because prosecuting the employer would presumably result the elimination of in many illegal jobs in exchange for that tolerating that one illegal guy.