patrick.net

Dan, your gradient image reminds me of Richard Dawkins' "mount improbable." It works on the scale of evolutionary time, but very few people convert voluntarily from Christianity to Islam. It's a bit like calling cannabis a "gateway drug:" the empirical evidence doesn't support the claim. Rather, the charlatan Mohamed hijacked the Judeo-Christian tradition and weaponized it into Islam, a doctrine of conquest globalizing the Jewish conquest of "the Holy Land." Mohamed got very few followers until he could bribe and/or blackmail them by conquest. As Churchill wrote, Islam "was originally propagated by the sword", which forced people to submit to it, and basically the only way to get people to believe it is to inflict it upon them via parent-to-child transmission.

curious2 says

NO society, anywhere in human history, has ever been destroyed by LGBT.

Yet many societies have been destroyed by Christianity in both Europe and the Americas. Just look at all the Native American societies wiped out by Christian invaders. Somehow I doubt that Fort Wayne will then conclude that a society should shun Christians.

curious2 says

It works on the scale of evolutionary time, but very few people convert voluntarily from Christianity to Islam.

Doesn't matter. The existence of Christianity still acts as a gradient enabling other, more violent religions to prosper. Again, it's the Broken Window Theory.

curious2 says

As Churchill wrote, Islam "was originally propagated by the sword", which forced people to submit to it, and basically the only way to get people to believe it is to inflict it upon them via parent-to-child transmission.

Sounds exactly like Christianity after the Constantine adopted it.

curious2 says

NO society, anywhere in human history, has ever been destroyed by LGBT. It has never happened

That is completely not true. It has been destroyed by LGBT, by failure of morality. LGBT is a symptom of failing morality.

If you don't know, look at history of Roman empire, or read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. You probably don't remember history where men could rent young boys for sick pleasure, how they could rent young girls. And it's coming back, liberals already legalized some of it in CA recently. Those are all historical accounts of societies that failed, and nothing but worst kind of misery fell upon the land.

Dan8267 says

curious2 says

It works on the scale of evolutionary time, but very few people convert voluntarily from Christianity to Islam.

Doesn't matter. The existence of Christianity still acts as a gradient enabling other, more violent religions to prosper. Again, it's the Broken Window Theory.

So you blame Christianity for the crimes of ISIS. Wow.

FortWayne says

That is completely not true. It has been destroyed by LGBT, by failure of morality. LGBT is a symptom of failing morality.

Was Nazi Germany a moral society? It was a Christian society and very anti-gay.

Were the Spanish conquistadors moral? Were not the genocides of Native Americans by Christians a huge moral failure? Or are you going to blame that on the gays as well.

It's gay bashing, not gay consensual sex, that is immoral. But your attitude does demonstrate that all religions including modern Christianity in the west cause immoral behavior and dehumanization of people who challenge your narrow-minded culture, and thus should not be tolerated.

How can people argue that there isn't a huge cost to our society for Christianity when there are plenty of people like Fort Wayne because of it?

I'm 100% with Dan on this. I've been an atheist for 40 years.

Strategist says

So you blame Christianity for the crimes of ISIS. Wow.

If Christianity never existed, nor would Islam which was based on it. The world is highly interconnected. Your inability to understand that is a failing of your simple-mindedness. Of course religions don't act in a vacuum, and Islam's history is highly intertwined with Christianity's history. And ISIS in particular is a direct result of Christian George W. Bush's "crusade" -- his own words.

Just because you take a simple view of the world does not mean the world fits that simple view.

junkmail says

I'm 100% with Dan on this. I've been an atheist for 40 years.

I can proudly state I have been an atheist since puberty. Religion never made sense to me then, it does not make sense to me now.

Dan8267 says

And ISIS in particular is a direct result of Christian George W. Bush's "crusade" -- his own words.

It's a myth. Islam has always been a barbaric religion. Only Muslims can be blamed for anything to do with Islam. Stop blaming others.

Hardly a myth.

Former U.S. Military Official Says George W. Bush Created ISIS

The Iraq war was "a huge error," he said, adding that the fall of Saddam Hussein presented an opportunity for groups like ISIS to grow.

"As brutal as Saddam Hussein was, it was a mistake to just eliminate him," he told the magazine. " ... The historic lesson is that it was a strategic failure to go into Iraq. History will not be and should not be kind with that decision."

For The Record, Yes, George W. Bush Did Help Create ISIS

Thousands of well-trained Sunni officers were robbed of their livelihood with the stroke of a pen. In doing so, America created its most bitter and intelligent enemies. Bakr went underground and met Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in Anbar Province in western Iraq. Zarqawi, a Jordanian by birth, had previously run a training camp for international terrorist pilgrims in Afghanistan. Starting in 2003, he gained global notoriety as the mastermind of attacks against the United Nations, US troops and Shiite Muslims. He was even too radical for former Al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden. Zarqawi died in a US air strike in 2006.

Although Iraq’s dominant Baath Party was secular, the two systems ultimately shared a conviction that control over the masses should lie in the hands of a small elite that should not be answerable to anyone — because it ruled in the name of a grand plan, legitimized by either God or the glory of Arab history. The secret of IS’ success lies in the combination of opposites, the fanatical beliefs of one group and the strategic calculations of the other.

So no, you don't get to rewrite history.

Dan8267 says

Thousands of well-trained Sunni officers were robbed of their livelihood with the stroke of a pen. In doing so, America created its most bitter and intelligent enemies. Bakr went underground and met Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in Anbar Province in western Iraq. Zarqawi, a Jordanian by birth, had previously run a training camp for international terrorist pilgrims in Afghanistan. Starting in 2003, he gained global notoriety as the mastermind of attacks against the United Nations, US troops and Shiite Muslims. He was even too radical for former Al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden. Zarqawi died in a US air strike in 2006.

No one asked these people to become terrorists and kill babies. It was their choice, inspired by Islam.
Would they have become terrorists if they were Buddhists? Absolutely not. They are terrorists because they follow the path of their terrorist founder, Mohammad.
So no, you don't get to make up myths.

Dan8267 says

Was Nazi Germany a moral society? It was a Christian society and very anti-gay.

Were the Spanish conquistadors moral? Were not the genocides of Native Americans by Christians a huge moral failure? Or are you going to blame that on the gays as well.

Those are unrelated to the topic. We were talking about Romans, the Sodom and Gomorrah. Way to go off on tangent instead of dealing with reality Dan, so typical of you.

curious2 says

Christianity caused the fall of Rome,

Yay Christianity!

The socialists who want to end run the rule of law would be the new religion.

Groupthink taught to 1st graders, major rewritten history, lack of scientific exploration, entitlements and runaway government growth, destruction of innovation and property, smash and grab politics and mafias (yes teamsters and teachers unions for all!)

Read the 10 commandments, our constitution is the spirit of the goodfaith written in these.

These laws are fair to every creed, and even the democrat creed, but the demos essentially against fairness, virtue, and honesty.

Quigley says

It would be far more likely for a Ferrari to be created by an explosion in an auto parts factory.

Not really. Richard Dawkins addressed this objection with the metaphor of Mount Improbable. Evolutionary mutations happen a little bit at a time, over billions of years, with natural selection favoring whatever works. We have four limbs and a vestigial tail leftover from our primate ancestors, who share more than 90% of our DNA. Tiny mutations, over time, add up. If you look only at the leap from molecules to cells, or cells to humans, then it can seem as improbable as leaping up a cliff, but if you look at the long record of incremental change, then you see the gentle slope leading around the side of the cliff and up to the top. The "intelligent design" believers are a type of creationists, and are rejected by most scientists.

FortWayne says

Romans, the Sodom and Gomorrah.

The Romans built the greatest empire the world had ever seen, and the empire lasted more than 1,000 years. Same-sex marriage existed at the time of Cicero, and Rome continued to prosper for 300 years, until Constantine imposed Christianity. Within one century after that, the city of Rome fell, and humanity fell into a dark age.

Even now, many secrets of Roman technology are only being re-discovered. Roman plumbing delivered more water than any city anywhere until New York in 1986. Within the last three decades, the secrets of Roman concrete have been re-discovered. Roman nanotechnology was rediscovered within one decade ago.

Sodom and Gomorrah may never have existed, and besides their story doesn't say what you say. There is no evidence of their existence outside the Bible, which says the sin of Sodom was rape. In the New Testament, Paul criticized homosexuality, which he saw all around him, but none of the quotations attributed to Jesus or the original disciples do. To the contrary, Luke 17:34-36 (emphasizing belief as the requirement for rapture) refers to two same-sex couples, wherein the believers get raptured up. The Christians rejected expressly the prohibitions of Leviticus:

"Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."

You try to distract from your sins by hating neighbors whom you should love, and your lies defile you.

Strategist says

No one asked these people to become terrorists and kill babies. It was their choice, inspired by Islam.

You missed the point, honey. The point is that a Christian crusade led to the rise of ISIS. So yes, Christianity does make the world a worse place.

You can't fight irrationality with more irrationality.

FortWayne says

Those are unrelated to the topic. We were talking about Romans, the Sodom and Gomorrah. Way to go off on tangent instead of dealing with reality Dan, so typical of you.

Off topic, my ass. Let me remind you of the history of the posts.

First you make the baseless assertions that (FortWayne says)

Christianity brings cohesiveness, LGBT crap destroys society.

Then curious2 refutes this with the empirical fact that (curious2 says)

NO society, anywhere in human history, has ever been destroyed by LGBT.

You then double down on your assertions, again with no evidence to back them up. FortWayne says

That is completely not true. It has been destroyed by LGBT, by failure of morality. LGBT is a symptom of failing morality.

I counter with two more historic examples that Christianity, not homosexuality, has destroyed civilizations. Dan8267 says

Was Nazi Germany a moral society? It was a Christian society and very anti-gay.

Were the Spanish conquistadors moral? Were not the genocides of Native Americans by Christians a huge moral failure? Or are you going to blame that on the gays as well.

So, yes, it is quit relevant. The real history of the world is very relevant to exposing the lies you tell. I can give hundreds of examples of civilizations deliberately destroyed by Christians. You cannot give a single example of a civilization destroyed by homosexuality.

History 100
Fort Wayne 0

I find Fort Wayne's arguments that homosexuality destroys the moral fabric of society and society itself to be utterly hypocritical. If Fort Wayne had any moral backbone, he would be objecting to the real moral decay that our society has engaged in. Yet, Fort Wayne defends the truly horrific and immoral actions our society undertakes. Pictures say more than words could.

And you claim that consensual loving relationships between homosexuals is what's destroying the moral fabric of our country? How fucking crazy are you? Why don't you express any outrage over the above morally bankrupt and despicable actions? You never have possessed the moral high ground, and you are an illustration of how religion corrupts and twists morality into something disgusting and perverted.

And you give us yet another reason to revoke religious privilege and ban religions starting with Christianity.

curious2 says

Christianity caused the fall of Rome, setting back western civilization for 1,000 years until the Enlightenment and our Republic broke religion's hold on power.

Another reason to ban religion.

Dan8267 says

I see nothing wrong with the pictures. Have you seen the beheading pictures?

Strategist says

Have you seen the beheading pictures?

That's not a fair question.

Strategist says

I see nothing wrong with the pictures. Have you seen the beheading pictures?

And that is why you are morally bankrupt. According to your god in the gospel according to Matthew 5:38-47,

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Are you saying that Jesus is wrong? That going against your god's commandments of "thou shalt not murder" and "love your neighbor" is justify if they have wronged you?

@Patrick, you say that Christianity is different from Islam because Jesus is always teaching people to be good. How do you square that with the fact that his followers completely and utterly reject those teachings and hold the same beliefs as Muslims?

Side note: Many of the people tortured and murdered in Gitmo and Abu Ghraib had nothing to do with terrorism. But I guess torturing innocent people doesn't bother Christians like Fort Wayne. Again, how is Christianity a religion of peace?

Dan8267 says

According to your god

Atheists have God's?

Dan8267 says

Many of the people tortured and murdered in Gitmo and Abu Ghraib had nothing to do with terrorism.

Bullshit. They should all be tortured for information and then shot.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

According to your god

Atheists have God's?

Sorry, I was having a discussion with Fort Wayne and you interrupted. I thought your response was his.

No, you're not a hypocrite. You're just morally wrong. Fort Wayne, however, is clearly a hypocrite as he's accepting, even approving, of something that goes completely against his so-called moral code and Christian values.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

Many of the people tortured and murdered in Gitmo and Abu Ghraib had nothing to do with terrorism.

Bullshit. They should all be tortured for information and then shot.

Wrong again. In a witch hunt a lot of innocent people get accused. A man wants his neighbor's flock or holds a grudge against the neighbor and tells the American soldiers that his neighbor is a terrorist and ISIS sympathizer. The American soldiers storm the man's house and bring him to the torture center to see what he knows. He knows nothing and dies from the torture. Are you OK with that?

Fort Wayne seems suddenly silent. I guess he can't face questioning.

Dan8267 says

Wrong again. In a witch hunt a lot of innocent people get accused. A man wants his neighbor's flock or holds a grudge against the neighbor and tells the American soldiers that his neighbor is a terrorist and ISIS sympathizer. The American soldiers storm the man's house and bring him to the torture center to see what he knows. He knows nothing and dies from the torture. Are you OK with that?

And what if he knows something that could save a lot of lives, but you don't get that information because you don't torture him.
Are you OK with that?

Strategist says

And what if he knows something that could save a lot of lives, but you don't get that information because you don't torture him.

Are you OK with that?

Hitler, Stalin, and Mao each killed more people than all the terrorists and all the criminals in all of human history combined. So yes, I'm OK with that. I'd rather live in a world where I have to fear a one in a million chance of being killed by a terrorist than a one in a thousand chance of being killed by the state. The state is far more dangerous. So yes, I'll take chaos over structured evil any day. It's by far the more rational choice.

Terrorism has never been and will never be an existential threat to free society. State tyranny most certainly is. No democracy or republic has EVER fell to terrorism. Many have fell to tyranny.

Strategist says

And what if he knows something that could save a lot of lives, but you don't get that information because you don't torture him.

My above answer was a practical one, but let's address the moral question.

Remember Jaycee Dugard? She was the pretty white blonde girl who was kidnapped at 12 years old, and raped and abused for 18 years, giving birth to two children from rape.

So let's say that Jaycee's dad knows "something" that could save a lot of lives, a major terrorist attack, but he won't tell you even under torture. Would you rape Jaycee in front of him to get him to talk? That's the moral question.

My answer is hell no. What's yours?

Wow, this thread suddenly went silent. Moral dilemmas too tough? Do they challenge black-and-white worldviews?

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

And what if he knows something that could save a lot of lives, but you don't get that information because you don't torture him.


Are you OK with that?

Hitler, Stalin, and Mao each killed more people than all the terrorists and all the criminals in all of human history combined. So yes, I'm OK with that. I'd rather live in a world where I have to fear a one in a million chance of being killed by a terrorist than a one in a thousand chance of being killed by the state. The state is far more dangerous. So yes, I'll take chaos over structured evil any day. It's by far the more rational choice.

Terrorism has never been and will never be an existential threat to free society. State tyranny most certainly is. No democracy or republic has EVER fell to terrorism. Many have fell to tyranny.

We don't live in a Hitler, Stalin, or Mao country. We live in the 21st century America. Get real.

Dan8267 says

So let's say that Jaycee's dad knows "something" that could save a lot of lives, a major terrorist attack, but he won't tell you even under torture. Would you rape Jaycee in front of him to get him to talk? That's the moral question.

My answer is hell no. What's yours?

I would torture the dad, not the girl.

FP says

Not everything is in the Bible. Try reading something else.

My protestant beliefs teach me to never use anything other than God's Word as the authority for my life.

Dan8267 says

This is a false argument. It is not merely the case that bad people use religion as an excuse. That statement is based on the false assumption that religion does not influence people's behavior and worldviews.

I'm gonna cut you off right there Dan. My point, which you completely missed, was that false interpretation, and actions that result there of, do not a religious zealot make. Quite the opposite, people who go off half-cocked without taking the time to fully understand their systems beliefs usually commit heresy, and are therefore heretics.

Sounds like the religion your really against is the religion of man, not God.

Dan8267 says

More evidence that religion rots brains. It's not something without extremely bad consequences, including in America today. No one would be foolish enough to believe in creationism if not for religion.

My example came out of YOUR field of work. You're so closed off to anything but hating God, you can't even see intelligent design when it's smacking you right in the face.