patrick.net

PeopleUnited says

We are pretty close to agreement.

I don't think so. You refuse to even address the core issue. Faith is not a tool for good, but rather a tool for evil. Accepting beliefs without evidence and even in spite of counter-evidence is intrinsically bad because it demands that people disregard rationality and truth and blindly follow something that is wrong. This very mechanism demands corruption and perversion.

You are the perfect example of a complete disregard of the truth, reality, and rationality. There is nothing that would convince you that the Bible, a poorly written collection of propaganda written by vile men with evil social and political agendas, is factually wrong. The fact that you cannot be convinced of this regardless of what evidence is presented demonstrates the dangers of Christian brainwashing.

You and I have antithetical and incompatible worldviews. You believe that your particular culture, that you were probably born into, must be the dominate culture even if it is based on lies, and that those lies must be accepted as the truth by everyone regardless of how dangerous and counter-productive they are. You value your culture above everything else; above the truth, above peace, above honesty, above morality.

I believe that ultimately good is more stable, more productive, and more effective than evil. Therefore, it is never in the long-term interest of a society to every accept a lie, no matter how noble. Furthermore, most if not all "noble" lies turn out not to be so noble. Either way such lies ultimately favor evil in the long run. There is a price to be paid for founding moral authority on lies. This price can never be avoided.

I believe the best way to further good is truth, transparency, and scientific understanding of everything including morality. Science works. Faith doesn't. History proves this beyond any doubt. Morality should be based on truth expressed mathematically, not based on lies and fair-tales with many dubious and contradictory values.

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

We are pretty close to agreement.

I don't think so. You refuse to even address the core issue. Faith is not a tool for good, but rather a tool for evil.

Your hypothesis is that faith is a tool for evil. Every hypothesis deserves testing and validation. So lets test that hypothesis.

First off we need to examine what faith is. Faith is a belief. What you believe is what you accept to be true, and what you believe forms the basis of intention. David Velleman of NYU says intentions are future-directed beliefs about what one will do—they are ‘self-fulfilling expectations that are motivated by a desire for their fulfillment and that represent themselves as such. We exercise faith on a routine basis. Does this evidence support your hypothesis?

PeopleUnited says

Your hypothesis is that faith is a tool for evil. Every hypothesis deserves testing and validation. So lets test that hypothesis.

History has already proven that time and time again. Countless experiments have been ran and the conclusions have been in for a long time.

When people fly planes into buildings, that's a faith based initiative.

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

Your hypothesis is that faith is a tool for evil. Every hypothesis deserves testing and validation. So lets test that hypothesis.

First off we need to examine what faith is. Faith is a belief. What you believe is what you accept to be true, and what you believe forms the basis of intention. David Velleman of NYU says intentions are future-directed beliefs about what one will do—they are ‘self-fulfilling expectations that are motivated by a desire for their fulfillment and that represent themselves as such. We exercise faith on a routine basis. Does this evidence support your hypothesis?

When people fly planes into buildings, that's a faith based initiative.

Agreed, but you didn't address my question. You have accused me of not addressing the core issue. You claim the the core issue is that faith is evil. I am challenging that hypothesis. I am putting it to the test. Do you dispute definition of faith as a belief? Do you dispute definition of intention as a future directed belief? Do you dispute that you exercise faith on a routine basis?

PeopleUnited says

You claim the the core issue is that faith is evil. I am challenging that hypothesis. I am putting it to the test.

No, that is exactly what you are not doing. To test a hypothesis is to accept the results of the experiments. You refuse to accept the results of millions of experiments that have all shown that faith in general, and Christian faith in particular, is a tool for evil. It's not like there isn't enough evidence in the past 2000 yeas of history. At some point, you are just completely disregarding any empirical evidence that doesn't support the answer you want.

PeopleUnited says

Do you dispute definition of faith as a belief? Do you dispute definition of intention as a future directed belief? Do you dispute that you exercise faith on a routine basis?

Jesus fucking Christ! Do you really think that using academic language is going to let you throw in a red herring and avoid all the evidence that faith is evil? Fine, I'll go over your catachrestic pomp and circumstance explaining why it's bullshit.

Bullshit. I believe that Maine is in the United States of America. That isn't faith. It's knowledge. Faith is the believe without evidence and even in spite of counter-evidence. There is no evidence that Jesus rose from the dead, yet you believe it. That is faith. There is ample evidence that man-made climate change is occurring. That is knowledge. The two are completely different things. From this misunderstanding alone we can discard everything else you just said, but let's continue.

PeopleUnited says

First off we need to examine what faith is. Faith is a belief.

PeopleUnited says

David Velleman of NYU says intentions are future-directed beliefs about what one will do

Who gives a shit what David Velleman says? Appeal to authority means nothing, and name dropping will not score you any points. If you cannot explain the statement and how it relates to this discussion, then no one should take it seriously.

PeopleUnited says

they are ‘self-fulfilling expectations that are motivated by a desire for their fulfillment and that represent themselves as such

Intentions are clearly not self-fulfilling. Anyone who has lived on this planet more than five years can tell you that.

PeopleUnited says

We exercise faith on a routine basis.

You might, but rational people do not. Nor would this supposition support that faith is not a tool for evil.

PeopleUnited says

Does this evidence support your hypothesis?

I don't think you know what evidence actually is. Core samples are evidence of historic temperatures. The crusades are evidence of wars created by Christianity. What you was spout off a bunch of nonsensical sentences with no reference to actual evidence of anything. Seriously, did you think your words were convincing?

I didn't respond to your nonsense initially because the only response to nonsense is to call it nonsense. You can't patch and fix it up.

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

You claim the the core issue is that faith is evil. I am challenging that hypothesis. I am putting it to the test.

No, that is exactly what you are not doing. To test a hypothesis is to accept the results of the experiments. You refuse to accept the results of millions of experiments that have all shown that faith in general, and Christian faith in particular, is a tool for evil. It's not like there isn't enough evidence in the past 2000 yeas of history. At some point, you are just completely disregarding any empirical evidence that doesn't support the answer you want.

@Dan8267
First of all, faith is not a tool, which is a point that has not been made yet. Faith is an action based on a belief. We all have beliefs. You probably don't realize how much of your life is based on faith. I know you don't have faith in God but you have faith in what you can do, in what other men and women can do. You seem to believe that if people just put their minds to it the human race can solve all problems. You even provide some so called solutions such as banning people who believe in a higher power from voting.

What you really mean to say is that deception is a tool for evil. And you wish to argue that all religion is deception. Fine you are free to make that argument. However what you fail to recognize is that deception is so widespread, so pervasive, that even you are deceived and do not realize it. Do you think you are not deceived into believing lies? Do you think that everything you hold to be true is really true?

So I would argue that just because religion is very often a form of deception, that doesn't mean that you are not deceived into false beliefs regarding the God of the Bible.

Strategist says

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

Be a murderer and believe in Jesus and he'll forgive your sins and you'll go to heaven.

You clearly have not gone to church, because what you said is not how it works. What you said, can only be said by someone who truly has no idea, but probably heard something somewhere. You are just bad at this Dan.

No. That's what I hear all the time, too.

If you accept Jesus Christ as your savior, all your sins are forgiven, and you will go to heaven. I get asked all the time to accept Christ, before it's too late.

I know some say that, but they are wrong. Some people in the church even get that one wrong. Per bible, forgiveness is not guaranteed for that would impose on god and faith.

FortWayne says

Strategist says

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

Be a murderer and believe in Jesus and he'll forgive your sins and you'll go to heaven.

You clearly have not gone to church, because what you said is not how it works. What you said, can only be said by someone who truly has no idea, but probably heard something somewhere. You are just bad at this Dan.

No. That's what I hear all the time, too.


If you accept Jesus Christ as your savior, all your sins are forgiven, and you will go to heaven. I get asked all the time to accept Christ, before it's too late.

I know some say that, but they are wrong. Some people in the church even get that one wrong. Per bible, forgiveness is not guarante...

What is guaranteed Fort Wayne is that when God makes a promise, He always delivers. He is incapable of failure. Men and women can make false promises, false professions of faith, but God is faithful and just to forgive those that truly believe. And true believers don't go around taking their sins as a joke. True believers are ashamed of their sins.

@Dan8267 said: Intentions are clearly not self-fulfilling. Anyone who has lived on this planet more than five years can tell you that.

Perhaps not every intention is realized, however no reasoned action of a human being ever occurs without intent. The car you drive, the porn on your computer and the shark eating the Jesus fish emblem on the back of your car were all realized intentions any thought that becomes a real creation was created by the faith of the creator in her/his ability to create it.

@PeopleUnited what do you think of non-believers like me, who nonetheless sympathize with Christianity out of agreement with Jesus' basic teachings?

You could say I'm going to hell because I don't believe. Or you could just accept a friend who has some points of agreement with you.

@Patrick

Non-believers happen to comprise most of my friends. So I think that you are a normal human being and I am glad to have you as a friend. I enjoy the sharing of ideas with you and even civil discussion of points of disagreement.

Some people don't enjoy civil discourse but I applaud you for your attempts to give users of this site the liberty to speak freely and encouragement to speak with civility (which is clearly harder to achieve).

Which of Jesus teachings are especially satisfying to you? I'm curious why you don't believe? Do you mind my asking?

My personal faith is not my favorite topic for an Internet forum but Dan really tried to derail this thread about Islam and the roots of Islamic terror, so that was how I decided to share my faith as a way of distinguishing Christian "religion" from Islamic terrorists. I suspect you and I have much in common Patrick. The false characterization of me and my beliefs not only on this thread but really since I first posted on this site is astounding.

Since this forum is not the ideal format for sharing my faith, I'd rather discuss how we as Americans and citizens of the world are going to act to protect innocent people from the Islamic threat. That being said, I am curious why you are an unbeliever who likes Jesus's teachings? If you believed what would change?

I particularly like these bits:

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

— Matthew 5:38–5:42 KJV

27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

— Luke 6:27–31 KJV

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek

Not only does it feel like the right way to behave, it has some good theoretical backing in game theory. If we all cooperate instead of "defecting", the whole world is much better off. The Buddhists say very similar things: “For hate is not conquered by hate: hate is conquered by love. This is a law eternal.”

There is enormous power in understanding that conflicts can be solved through identifying with the other person.

I don't believe that Jesus was God, or rose from the dead, or even that there is necessarily anything supernatural at all. It just never clicked with me the way it does with some people. That part just seems literally unbelievable to me. If I believed, I supposed I'd go to church. Not sure what else would change.

rando says

I particularly like these bits:

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

— Matthew 5:38–5:42 KJV

27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

31 A...

You will notice..... violent Muslims who convert to Christianity become peaceful. Peaceful Christians who convert to Islam, become violent.

rando says

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek

Not only does it feel like the right way to behave, it has some good theoretical backing in game theory. If we all cooperate instead of "defecting", the whole world is much better off. The Buddhists say very similar things: “For hate is not conquered by hate: hate is conquered by love. This is a law eternal.”

There is enormous power in understanding that conflicts can be solved through identifying with the other person.

I don't believe that Jesus was God, or rose from the dead, or even that there is necessarily anything supernatural at all. It just never clicked with me the way it does with some people. That part just seems literally unbelievable to me. If I believed, I supposed I'd go to church. Not sure what else would change.

Awesome, thanks for sharing. And no doubt what you have said is true regarding game theory. I see game theory and every mathematical truth as affording us greater understanding of God. Good science theory only lends credence to the Bible. The Buddhist saying is 100% true as well. The older I get the more I see confirmation of what the Bible says is true. One concerning aspect of this is that the book of Revelation and other prophecies of very challenging and dangerous times are yet to be fulfilled. All the more reason for us as people to learn to get along and not dwell on our differences.

I understand where you are coming from with regards to the supernatural. But I wonder how you have chosen to explain your own existence?

Since becoming a believer I actually go to church less. I am not opposed to gathering together to worship and have fellowship, I just find that most churches are more business than family/friend/fellowship based. Not only that but unfortunately most churches only pay lip service to Jesus, and instead focus on promoting themselves more than the Savior who they claim to serve.

PeopleUnited says

You will notice..... violent Muslims who convert to Christianity become peaceful. Peaceful Christians who convert to Islam, become violent.

Agreed, the only thing I would add is this: It is the natural state of woman/man to be violent. Jesus taught the following to the so called religious leaders of His day. They were upset that people where following Him and He was not following their rules. We pick up the story in Mark chapter 7 KJV

5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:

15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.

18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

The point Jesus was making is that evil is inside all of us, we don't need to be taught to do evil. He knows we can't be perfect like He was, and He dedicated His life to teach us that we need a Savior. Jesus tells his believers not succumb to the internal temptation to do evil, and true believers are ashamed when they fail to do what is right. Jesus told the woman who was caught in the act of adultery that He did not condemn her, but that she should go and sin no more. Islamists like the self righteous religious crowd in Jesus time, rather than showing compassion and understanding would stone her rather than teach her to reform.

Christianity in its pure form is about reformation. To become a Christian you must acknowledge your sin, that it is offensive to God and that you are powerless to redeem yourself despite your best earnest effort and desires. If you become a Christian you are a new creature, who doesn't want to live any longer under the condemnation and power of sin.

Islam on the other hand is about subjugation to the rule of Islamic "law". Unlike Jesus, Islam does promote evil. Islam encourages Muslims to practice murder, theft, deceit, rape, terrorism and the list goes on.

The religion of peace in the last 30 days...

there were 169 Islamic attacks in 24 countries, in which 1051 people were killed and 955 injured.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30

PeopleUnited says

The religion of peace in the last 30 days...

Most of these were excepetions that don't prove anything.

P N Dr Lo R says

PeopleUnited says

The religion of peace in the last 30 days...

Most of these were excepetions that don't prove anything.

These aren't the droids you're looking for.

The answer to the original topic question of the root cause of Islamic terrorism is, technology. Our common genome aside, the diversity of culture, understanding, governance and traditions for much of human history, were by and large sequestered by physical barriers...oceans, mountains, deserts, and distance....the world was indeed a large place. There were of course conflicts, and some of great magnitude. However, never to the degree we experience today where the clash of cultures collide in an instant on a daily basis on the internet. Where people can intersect with all sort of differing ideas, traditions, beliefs. It is a recipe for discord, and frankly quite predictable. The world has shrunk considerably. This phenomenon is not merely relegated to Islam solely. Even here on this forum we see....people who perhaps would never have known one another otherwise, have opportunity to defend their positions.

What is the root cause of Christian bomberism, invaderism and regime-change-ism?

Why do you assume the bombings have anything to do with Christianity?

Lots of those neo-Cons were Jewish.

It was about oil and preventing oil from being priced in Euros.

In which case, should we be the least bit surprised that (some, not all) inhabitants of the countries we bomb and invade hate us, Christian or not, and then proceed to go to western countries and bomb us? Both sides are doing terrible things. Adults and children are being killed and maimed everywhere. This has got to stop.

Bombing and invasion was bad, agreed. I protested, absolutely did not want the attack on Iraq after those Saudis attacked the US on 9/11. Looked into Canadian citizenship.

But how do you explain Boko Haram? Or Islamic murders in the Phillipines? Or Sweden? Or Germany? Or Thailand? Or murders of tourists in Tunisia? Or the massive attack in Bombay? Or China?

Those other countries had nothing to do with the war. How do you explain them?

Could it just possibly be that Islam itself incites murder in its core teachings, and that ignoring the role of Islam gives tacit approval to yet more Islamic murders?

The first step to solving a problem is to speak honestly about it.

rando says

Could it just possibly be that Islam itself incites murder in its core teachings

In the Ottoman empire, Christians and Jews were treated better than other religious groups in the western empires at that time (until the Armenian genocide, but it was not motivated by religion).

rando says

The first step to solving a problem is to speak honestly about it.

The first step is to recognize what the problem is.

FP says

In the Ottoman empire, Christians and Jews were treated better than other religious groups in the western empires at that time (until the Armenian genocide, but it was not motivated by religion).

Christians and Jews were moneymakers for their Islamic rulers via the jizya tax. The Armenians in particular had good trade going with the Venetians and could freely travel back and forth.

And the Armenians were indeed killed largely because of religion, because it was feared that as Orthodox Christians, they would side with Russia and help break up the Ottoman empire even further.

My MIL is Armenian and I've read a bit about the genocide.

rando says

Christians and Jews were moneymakers for their Islamic rulers via the jizya tax.

Even if this is the only reason (proof??), they were still more tolerant than their western counterparts.

rando says

And the Armenians were indeed killed largely because of religion, because it was feared that as Orthodox Christians, they would side with Russia and help break up the Ottoman empire even further.

You know very well that this is different than religion intolerance.

You can say it was political, but :

1. nonetheless they were killed for being Christian
2. most of the murdering was done by ordinary Muslims who were very willing to go along with the murders because Islam told them it was good to kill non-Muslims

justme says

In which case, should we be the least bit surprised that inhabitants of the countries we bomb and invade hate us, Christian or not, and then proceed to go to western countries and bomb us? Both sides are doing terrible things. Adults and children are being killed and maimed everywhere. This has got to stop.

It should be a no-brainer then NOT to let them in. At the very least, not single males.

rando says

nonetheless they were killed for being Christian

for being perceived as allies of a foreign power, among other non-religious reasons

rando says

most of the murdering was done by ordinary Muslims who were very willing to go along with the murders because Islam told them it was good to kill non-Muslims

ordinary christians in India did a lot of killings of muslims during the Indian/Pakistan genocides

FP says

ordinary christians in India did a lot of killings of muslims during the Indian/Pakistan genocides

People don't forget the hundreds of years of Jihad and Oppression. The Balkans, Hungary, and Poland don't either. Germany, unlike Bulgaria, was never an Exploited Colony of an Imperialist Muslim Ottoman Empire that enslaved millions. Not because of arms, but because Magyars and Poles defeated the Turks at Vienna, while Germans were fighting amongst themselves.

In fact, parts of Europe are still under Turkish Imperialist Domination, like Thrace. It should be liberated.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

People don't forget the hundreds of years of Jihad and Oppression.

Oh, I agree with this. I don't advocate for welcoming muslims into Europe. On the contrary, I am against it.

Maybe it is good to step back and see where exactly Patrick and I disagree. I'll do it later today when I have time.

Or anyone wearing a beekeeper outfit

TwoScoopsMcGee says

justme says

In which case, should we be the least bit surprised that inhabitants of the countries we bomb and invade hate us, Christian or not, and then proceed to go to western countries and bomb us? Both sides are doing terrible things. Adults and children are being killed and maimed everywhere. This has got to stop.

It should be a no-brainer then NOT to let them in. At the very least, not single males.

PeopleUnited says

These aren't the droids you're looking for.

I hope you recognized the sarcasm.

"ordinary christians in India did a lot of killings of muslims during the Indian/Pakistan genocides".
Proof?

Gade says

Proof?

Bwahahahaha.

justme says

What is the root cause of Christian bomberism, invaderism and regime-change-ism?

When Jesus tells someone to intiate a bombing you will have a case. Until then you might as well understand that this is what Christ said about the enemies:

Matthew 5:44King James Version (KJV)

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

FP says

rando says

The first step to solving a problem is to speak honestly about it.

The first step is to recognize what the problem is.

That is what this thread is about.

Now that the real trolls are gone, any discussion on the association between Islam and violence?