patrick.net

Ironman says

They probably aren't, that's my point, the elderly get MORE treatment here, because they "can"..

Conceivable. So are you advocating letting the elderly in the USA die then? Are you on board with the dreaded "Obama Death Panels?"

Ironman says

Please tell us what the claims denial rate is for Medicare? I'll be waiting....

You claimed the denial rate was zero. You prove it.

Blurtman says

Ironman says

They probably aren't, that's my point, the elderly get MORE treatment here, because they "can"..

Conceivable. So are you advocating letting the elderly in the USA die then? Are you on board with the dreaded "Obama Death Panels?"

What is more important:

Quality of life

Or

Quantity of life

Blurtman says

Conceivable. So are you advocating letting the elderly in the USA die then? Are you on board with the dreaded "Obama Death Panels?"

Oh yea, keeping someone alive "because they can" in an icu for an extra month for $100,000 certainly avoids the dreaded "Obama Death Panels". Just look at ironbrains chart to see how it works out financially.

bob2356 says

Oh yea, keeping someone alive "because they can" in an icu for an extra month for $100,000 certainly avoids the dreaded "Obama Death Panels".

Why do you think it is all ICU care?

Tim Aurora says

While this is one of the aspect, there are others

* Our Doctor's are more expensive because

- they have to study longer than doctor's than most countries

- malpractice insurance in this country is higher

Unless you are an OB or neurosurgeon malpractice is less than 10k a year, more like 4-5k for a gp. There are some big outliiers, florida is just off the charts, but most states are very reasonable.

Blurtman says

bob2356 says

Oh yea, keeping someone alive "because they can" in an icu for an extra month for $100,000 certainly avoids the dreaded "Obama Death Panels".

Why do you think it is all ICU care?

That was what is called an example. There are many expensive procedures done at end of life.

Ironman says

I did, please repost my quote where I said that.... I'll be waiting.

Ironman says

The reason is Medicare, patients don't give a crap what the costs are and doctors can bill for what ever procedure, treatment, test, surgery, etc. they want because it never gets turned down or rejected by Medicare. What ever the doctor "orders" is what's done. No price checks, no questions, no nothing.

it never gets turned down or rejected by Medicare

So are you going to pull a trump and say it never gets turned down actually means it sometimes gets turned down?

bob2356 says

That was what is called an example. There are many expensive procedures done at end of life.

Yes there are. Who decides if granny gets an extra three or four months?

Ironman says

bob2356 says

it never gets turned down or rejected by Medicare

So are you going to pull a trump and say it never gets turned down actually means it sometimes gets turned down?

So stop posting all your bullshit and prove me wrong and post the claims denial rate.. or STFU...

Perfect, you can't make this shit up. Back up your bullshit claim.

Ironman says

Oh bobby, you haven't explained why the cost graph takes a big up turn around 60 when the life expectancy here is late 70's

Yes I have, but you just don't have the capability of grasping it.

Healthcare in Denmark is largely financed through local (regional and municipal) taxation with integrated funding and provision of health care at the regional level.

In 2014, the Danish healthcare expenditure amounted to 10.6 per cent of GDP, which is more than the OECD average of 9.0 per cent. Approximately 84 per cent of healthcare expenditure is publicly financed (2015). Life expectancy in Denmark has increased from 77.9 years in 2005 to 80.6 years in 2015. Danish women have a higher life expectancy (82.5 years in 2015) than Danish men (78.6 years in 2015).

There is 1 doctor for every 294 persons in Denmark.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Denmark

Aggregate U.S. hospital costs were $387.3 billion in 2011—a 63% increase since 1997 (inflation adjusted). Costs per stay increased 47% since 1997, averaging $10,000 in 2011.[23]

According to the World Health Organization (WHO), total health care spending in the U.S. was 17.9% of its GDP in 2011, the highest in the world.[26] The Health and Human Services Department expects that the health share of GDP will continue its historical upward trend, reaching 19.5% of GDP by 2017.[61][62] Of each dollar spent on health care in the United States, 31% goes to hospital care, 21% goes to physician/clinical services, 10% to pharmaceuticals, 4% to dental, 6% to nursing homes and 3% to home health care, 3% for other retail products, 3% for government public health activities, 7% to administrative costs, 7% to investment, and 6% to other professional services (physical therapists, optometrists, etc.).[63]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States

Blurtman says

bob2356 says

That was what is called an example. There are many expensive procedures done at end of life.

Yes there are. Who decides if granny gets an extra three or four months?

That is a cultural issue, not a health system issue. I said that before. The US culture is death is a failure and must be fought to the last possible second.

Ironman says

So, why didn't Obama fix that when he passed Obamacare... Would have been the perfect time.

What should he have done?

bob2356 says

That is a cultural issue, not a health system issue. I said that before. The US culture is death is a failure and must be fought to the last possible second.

You are a Death Panel Kultist.

Ironman says

See bobby, this is how it works, if you disagree with someone's assertion, YOU have to provide the facts and data to prove them wrong.

Since you CAN'T do that in this case, just STFU...

Only in your pink sky world. But since you are incapable of backing up your bullshit I'll give it to you. The denial rate is 10%. I knew that all along. https://www.cms.gov/Newsroom/MediaReleaseDatabase/Fact-sheets/2015-Fact-sheets-items/2015-10-29.html

Still want to claim NO medicare claims are denied? This is the point where normal people say I fucked up. But you will go off on another strawman shuck and jive instead.

Blurtman says

bob2356 says

That is a cultural issue, not a health system issue. I said that before. The US culture is death is a failure and must be fought to the last possible second.

You are a Death Panel Kultist.

I have my end of life directive in place. I'm not hanging around for months living a miserable existence on a machine. You can choose to spend your last days any way you want. Enjoy it.

You can choose to spend your last days any way you want. Enjoy it.

-----------

On whose dime?

Blurtman says

Ironman says

So, why didn't Obama fix that when he passed Obamacare... Would have been the perfect time.

What should he have done?

Ironbrain never has solutions, just grumpy old man criticisms for everything.

bob2356 says

I have my end of life directive in place.

Your choice, your right. Do you think you have the right to decide for others?

errc says

On whose dime?

We all pay now for the sick.

Blurtman says

bob2356 says

I have my end of life directive in place.

Your choice, you right. Do you think you have the right to decide for others?

Where did I ever say that I had the right to decide anything for others? I said it's very expensive, not anything about rights. People choose according to their culture. Hospice and dieing as comfortably as possible is a much bigger priority than living an extra month or two in many places. I'm voting with my feet, I won't be ending my life in the US system. When my obligation here is done I'm gone for good.

bob2356 says

I have my end of life directive in place. I'm not hanging around for months living a miserable existence on a machine.

Just hope you don't get stuck in a Catholic hospital, especially if Neil Gorsuch gets promoted to the Supreme Court. "Church doctrine prevents competent patients from refusing artificial nutrition and hydration... All comatose and vegetative patients will be required to accept nutrition and hydration indefinitely, even if they leave behind air-tight living wills objecting to such "heroic" and invasive measures." They say it's their religion, which Gorsuch elevates above secular law, but of course in reality it's the infinite Medicare&Obamneycare subsidies ("No more lifetime caps!"). Catholic "charities" get 90% of their revenue from government. Other religious hospital corporations have the same religious right to discover magically that their doctrines command equally infinite subsidies. In California, we've seen litigation between hospital chains fighting over patients like ranchers poaching cattle. In most states, they can even "balance bill" you or your estate for whatever charges insurance might not cover. You are a potentially infinite revenue stream to them, and they won't let you go without a fight.

Blurtman says

errc says

On whose dime?

We all pay now for the sick.

I thought you were talking about end of life care, specifically pertaining to the elderly.

Not everyone dies from curable sickness.

Many expire due to old age.

It's kinda an important distinction

errc says

Not everyone dies from curable sickness.

Well, they wouldn't if the sickness would be cured. As with other technologies, biotechnology advances are logarithmic.

Ironman says

Until you admit there's a problem, you can't find a solution.

Folks will prioritize their idea of the problem differently. For some, it is insuring those without insurance, including those with pre-existing conditions. For others, it will be providing health care to all as a basic human right. For you, the cost and unsustainability is the problem.

The solution:

Ironman says

TOTAL FAIL!!! Bobby you're DONE, put a fork in it...

The 10% denial rate was due to incorrect BILLING, not denial of medical TREATMENT:

-



-

The denials are because the insurance billers can't fill out the claims forms correctly... Duh...

bob2356 says

You are really becoming a joke today. Where does it say denials are all billing errors, point it out. It doesn't. It says 2.19% were rejected for billing errors. Which jibs with the medicare breakdown below of 2.78%, depending on the year. You said NO claims were denied ever. Want me to post your words AGAIN?

Here's the breakdown of denials for medicare. I can't link, its a pdf.
27.8%
Claim/service lacks information which is needed for adjudication. At least one Remark Code must be provided (may be comprised of either the Remittance Advice Remark Code or NCPDP Reject Reason Code).
20.9%
These are non-covered services because this is not deemed a ‘medical necessity’ by the payer.
13.8%
Claim not covered by this payer/contractor. You must send the claim to the correct payer/contractor.
8.5%
Non-covered charge(s). At least one Remark Code must be provided (may be comprised of either the Remittance Advice Remark Code or NCPDP Reject Reason Code).
5.8%
Claim denied as patient cannot be identified as our insured.
3.9%
These are non-covered services because this is a routine exam or screening procedure done in conjunction with a routine exam.
3.1%
Expenses incurred prior to coverage.
3.0%
Services not covered because the patient is enrolled in a Hospice.

These are non-covered services because this is not deemed a ‘medical necessity’ by the payer.
These are non-covered services because this is a routine exam or screening procedure done in conjunction with a routine exam.
Non-covered charge(s)

These are denials of a medical claim. Period. Do you really want to continue looking this foolish? Remember never gets turned down or rejected? No price checks, no questions, no nothing? I guess it depends on the meaning of the word no.

Ironman says

The reason is Medicare, patients don't give a crap what the costs are and doctors can bill for what ever procedure, treatment, test, surgery, etc. they want because it never gets turned down or rejected by Medicare. What ever the doctor "orders" is what's done. No price checks, no questions, no nothing.

Ironman says

bob2356 says

I can't link,

What a surprise....

Just keep baffling everyone with your bullshit!!

You haven't proved me wrong. Not that you ever do. It's true because I believe it should be true.

Ironman says

Most old people develop the same medical conditions as they age. So why is treatment costs 4X in the US for similar treatments and conditions that old people get treated for?

Clearly not becasue of medicare.

I'm pretty sure that you must understand that all your chart shows is that health care costs more in the US. With no clear causal connection to medicare. Yes, it's only like $1000 more per year in the younger years, where as the difference explodes in later years.

You should be able to understand that there's no evidence this has more to do with medicare than it does to the simple fact that those years are the years when a significant percentage of the population is having serious health issues, that is including in many cases end of life issues. In younger years only 1 in 150 or even less are having those problems in a given year.

Ironman says

bob2356 says

You haven't proved me wrong.

I prove you wrong every fucking day of the week here, and it's really getting tiresome.

Oh my another imaginary smackdown. After dinner I'll faint.

I realize in the strange alternative universe that you, tbp, and indigenous inhabit the act of continually chanting I don't believe you is proving something. But normal rational human beings not living in some dark recess of a diseased mind actually offer up real proof beyond it's true because I believe it's true.

Carry on "winning".

Ironman says

Holy crap... talk about clueless... the chart has costs for the SAME age groupings in all the countries. Most old people suffer from many of the same health conditions. It's NOT comparing senior citizens in the US to Millennials in Spain... WTF,

We've covered this ground.

1) HEalthcare costs more in the U.S., way more. Typical tests cost 5 to 20 times as much. Same for many surgeries, other procedures, hospital rooms, everything.

2) An extremely high percentage of people in the U.S. have almost no serious expensive healthcare problems until they are over 55, or much later.

This is actually very simple. Let me put it in terms you will understand even less. If health care was several times more expensive here than in other first world countries for reasons having nothing to do with medicare, your chart would look the same, becasue such a large proportion of the health care that people receive in their lives occurs in the later years of their lives.

Therefore you have proven nothing. You have provided zero evidence to back your claim.

I wonder how much of the cost past age 70 is bullshit Rehab in Nursing Homes, because Medicare/Medicaid doesn't pay shit unless you're in Rehab.

So we got god knows how many terminally ill 80 something patients are being "Rehabilitated" in Private Nursing Homes at huge fraudulent expense when they should be dying at home or in hospice care.

My death plan is to take so much heroin and ganja to fight off the pain and enjoy as much as possible. Then get on a boat, play "Volga Boatmen" And "This is My Life" by Billy Joel on repeat, and set fire to it, after I take an heroic amount of opiates and leave a few thousand for an open bar party at my kids' or wife's favorite restaurant.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

My death plan is to take so much heroin and ganja to fight off the pain and enjoy as much as possible. Then get on a boat, play "Volga Boatmen" And "This is My Life" by Billy Joel on repeat....

That's a great plan, but if laws are no constraint, then you might prefer secobarbital sodium, hypothermia, and vitrification instead of self-immolation. IMMV: I'm not offering medical advice, and haven't personally tried it (yet).

Ironman says

So Bernie and this Lawson dude think the problem is with the insurance companies and the drug companies. Go read the article and look to see if they think the problem is with doctors and hospitals (ie: the COST of treatment)

-



-

-

See that chart, Bernie thinks the high costs are due to 9% of the spending (prescription drugs). He also thinks the evil insurance companies charge too much for insurance. I wonder why that is??

Why hasn't Bernie proposed to decrease the amounts charged by physicians and hospitals????? What percentage is spent there??

I'd like to hear your answer on that!!

Yet, he thinks Medicare for All, with it's minimal deductibles is the solution??

See a problem yet??

A problem like only half of medical spending is actually treating people? Actually less than that. The doctors and hospitals numbers include medical billing. Average doctors office spends 10-11% on insurance billing. Hospital administration runs from 23% for public hospitals to 27% for profit hospitals with 9-10% insurance billing. The average for hospital administration is 13-18% in other countries. So take off another 6-7% and the amount of health care money actually spent treating people is in the low 40% range.

Yep I see a problem. Yep it's all medicare's fault, I can see that now. Nothing to do with money going to insurance, medical billing, profits, high administrative costs, or anything like that. Nope not a thing. The money for all that comes from the tooth fairy. It's all medicare's fault.

Save your fingertips dufus. Your dementia being so bad I'll remind you that I am against medicare for all and I'd like to see medicare reformed, but that's never going to happen.

Ironman says

Ironman says

Where exactly did you get your chart that has no attribution at all? I just checked the numbers from 3 different sources and they don't come anywhere close to your chart.

This is what the Kaiser Foundation says.

Bur of Labor Statistics says pretty much the same thing, but they include all spending including out of pocket

CMS says only 34% of medical spending is over 65.

Where did your numbers come from? Show your source.

Ironman says

My response wasn't posted towards you, but being the asshole that you are, you decided to reply anyway. Thanks for proving it to everyone here how much of an idiot you are!!

Winning!!!

So winning means ducking the issue. Yep that is winning to you.

bob2356 says

When my obligation here is done I'm gone for good.

What if something were to happen to you prior to that time that prevented you from leaving ?

Ironman says

Another fucking straw man by you. Where is the costs pre 65 and where is the comparison to OTHER countries???

FAIL!!!!!

Where is your explanation of why the costs on your chart are almost triple what the government publishes? Why does pre 65 or other countries matter other than being yet another shuck and jive strawman. We are talking about the US costs after 65. You remember that your argument was about medicare don't you? Your dementia isn't that bad is it? Other countries costs aren't in question. Although maybe they should be seeing how bad the US numbers are. The cost per person is right there twice, you couldn't read it? What happens to your chart when the numbers after 65 are cut by 2/3's? Never mind you don't have the mathematical ability to answer that.

Ironman says

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2012/12/30/2012-the-year-in-healthcare-charts/#255f1da6c8c8

Paul FIschbeck Professor of Social and Decision Sciences? Are you kidding me? This is your source? How does he have better information that Medicare? Do you suppose Medicare doesn't know what they pay out and Fischbeck does some how?

Ironman says

Did you look closely at that, it jumps from around $2K a year at 40 to $10K a year at 65 (col 2).

You don't suppose more people get sick at 65 than at 40 do you? No I forgot you said no one gets heart disease or cancer or chronic diseases until after 65, a momentous discovery that medical science will be forever grateful to you for your research. When will you be publishing your research?

Epic fucking fail. You chart inflates the US numbers after 65 by 300%. You and your chart are a joke.

MMR says

ob2356 says

When my obligation here is done I'm gone for good.

What if something were to happen to you prior to that time that prevented you from leaving ?

Then shit happens. What if you were hit by a bus tomorrow?