patrick.net

134% of rich people are delusional?

This is true - I just don't spend much time thinking about how to make money. I'm sure I could make more if I tried. So, I really can't bemoan my position if I'm not willing to work any harder for it. Wishing for more doesn't seem to be working :)

Kind of interesting that no group has abilities and talents in the top half.

Also interesting, but expected, that the rich seem to give credit to themselves and the poor do not blame themselves.

Well, the richfucks are talking about themselves whereas the poorfucks are talking about somebody else, and the middlefucks still think they have a shot at being richfucks.

The editorial positions are skewed.

rando says

and the poor do not blame themselves.

Very interesting. The poor don't value education, and do seem to blame others for their misfortunes.
I think the best lifestyle to have is an upper middle class, well educated, and a simple lifestyle. A lifestyle where you don't keep up with the Jones, even though you could. Those who leave large large fortunes to their children will result in their future generations becoming uneducated, drug addicts, assholes, taken advantage of, ripped off by gold digging spouses, and what not.
Basically, some wealth is good, but too much will lead to a disaster down the road.

These charts are pretty much what you'd expect. Very interesting.

More proof that middle class are the most reasonable.

And yet I should quote myself:

Patrick says

Every other nation has folk traditions of men who were poor but extremely wise and virtuous, and therefore more estimable than anyone with power and gold. No such tales are told by the American poor. They mock themselves and glorify their betters. The meanest eating or drinking establishment, owned by a man who is himself poor, is very likely to have a sign on its wall asking this cruel question: “If you’re so smart, why ain’t you rich?”

Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for any American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money is to come by, and, therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately, than any other ruling class since, say, Napoleonic times.

Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. They do ...

from https://patrick.net/1206585/2011-12-31-patrick-s-politics

Maybe Vonnegut was wrong and the poor don't actually blame themselves.

I find it interesting that every commentator in this thread, found the image interesting. I think the charts could use some context.

First, how are the participants defining success?

Why does the y axis suggest percentages, yet the x axis add up to number > 100 ?

Also, Patrick used a potentially misleading title : Differing Views on how People Get to be Rich. The image he uses says : How do Poor, Middle Class and Rich People Believe the Reason for Success.

For me to agree with the Peenut Gallery that there's something "interesting " here, I'm going to require some context and clarification.

"Presence of initial Capital " is a hell of a bullshit way to say 'they inherited it', if the question is as posed in the title, how do the rich become rich.

jazz music says

errc says

"Presence of initial Capital " is a hell of a bullshit way to say 'they inherited it'

I drew you a VIVID picture based on reality and personal experience.

Relax. I need time to read your comment before throwing it a like

jazz music says

Okay now it's time you have to give up your career as professional surfer, dancer, model, photographer, dancer, and parents get you into a mortgage by paying the downpayment:

I personally know people my age who got to do "artistic" things before getting a real career because mom and dad took care of little worries like mortgages. (Hi Mary!)

And then I looked around a bit, and found that more often than not, artists and writers and "self-made" entrepreneurs come from families who can support their kids indefinitely. The starving artist myth is exactly that.

So, Nabokov, say, really didn't need to write. He could have retired at birth. As Bill Gates could have. Not all members of the intelligentsia are born rich, but the majority are, and they inevitably play it down.

I even worked for an "internet entrepreneur" (Hi Alex!) whose family was plenty rich to begin with, so he could use dad's secretary and connections etc, and yet portray himself to the press as a self-made Wunderkind. Which he did.

jazz music says

Those who have backup are bound for the top of the heap as they get tossed into the fray of the rat race. If they still fail to rise they can always fall back on a key role with the father's business, it will ALWAYS be there for them if they need it.

I see you represent the poor, angry, sore losers, who blame others for their misfortunes. You are in fucking America, where people from all over the world risk their lives for the greatest things this country offers. Opportunity, Freedom, and Equality to all. People from all over the world, come to this great melting pot, and make it. Stop blaming others, and take responsibility for yourself. Or else go back to where your ancestors came from, and tell us how that works out for you?

Of course it's someone else's fault. How pathetic would it be if it were my fault I'm poor?

Ironman says

So, in your mind, the people who are in the "Rich People" category is because of mommy and daddy??

The most important factor for being rich is definitely to choose your parents wisely. Always was, always will be.

The fact is, the majority of Rich people are born rich. That doesn't mean that a poor person is unable to become rich (Hi errc!), but it takes a bit of luck. Plenty of poor folk get educated, work very hard, and never become even remotely wealthy

So then it pays to have connections in the guf??

rando says

The most important factor for being rich is definitely to choose your parents wisely. Always was, always will be.

It can happen but it's the rare case that is grudgingly allowed so that the people don't revolt against the non-productive rent-seekers who inherited everything and then tax the rest of us.

I suppose we should all be grateful for that crumb of hope and keep our mouths shut so they don't take that away too.

BlueSardine says

So then it pays to have connections in the guf??

"Gross Upper Fup, the next step beyond the first roll of fat above the female genitalia."

Ew.

The truth may be painful, but it is not ad hom

The thing is, nobody considers you rich or successful. And judging by your posts on here, you definitely aren't in the company of rich a/o successful people.

Rich and successful people don't scrimp and save all year just to take a short Carnival Cruise in the Caribbean

I think some form of Georgism is the ultimate answer.

Everyone should get to keep all of what they really earn, but get taxed on what they take from others without working. Henry George would have just taxed land rent, but a few other taxes on non-productive rent seeking would be good too.

rando says

I think some form of Georgism is the ultimate answer.

Everyone should get to keep all of what they really earn, but get taxed on what they take from others without working. Henry George would have just taxed land rent, but a few other taxes on non-productive rent seeking would be good too.

Lets just tax the hell out of anyone who has more than $10 million in net assets. More so the billionaires.

Vietnamese play lots of poker. By definition almost all Vietnamese in LA are self made. Vietnamese have a lot of interesting stories. Certainly not the excuses offered up in this thread

errc says

The fact is, the majority of Rich people are born ricH.

This seems to be a crucial point in this thread. So prove it.

Strategist says

Lets just tax the hell out of anyone who has more than $10 million in net assets. More so the billionaires.

I'm actually opposed. I think we should distinguish between assets earned by productive work and assets earned by forcing others to pay you for the right to live on earth.

Sure, taxes should be progressive, but some people really are very productive and should get to keep the majority of what they really created.

rando says

Strategist says

Lets just tax the hell out of anyone who has more than $10 million in net assets. More so the billionaires.

I'm actually opposed. I think we should distinguish between assets earned by productive work and assets earned by forcing others to pay you for the right to live on earth.

No Patrick, anyone with more than $10 million, is unlikely to have made it through productive work alone.

I suppose it hinges on how much you value the contributions of the supporting cast.

Lots of people have founded productive companies and made more than $10 million dollars by owning equity which appreciated. Would the value of that equity exist if they had not done it?

But otoh, they really didn't do it entirely alone. They inevitably got a lot of help from paid workers. It gets kind of messy there.

Georgism is really beautiful in that it correctly points out that no one created the land, so no one deserves to get rent from land. Owners should just get rent from creating and maintaining the buildings on the land. But what percent of wealth is land these days? Taxing land and other natural resources alone may not be sufficient to run government.

I don't know, this country has an awful lot of valuable land. Think of just the value of all the coastal land alone! Are people going to stop going to the beach if we replace the Federal Income tax with a Federal Land Value tax?

My property was just subjected to a county-wide revaluation. The Land Value doubled. Somehow, the value of the building increased as well, just by aging in the elements for another dozen years. Strange

rando says

I suppose it hinges on how much you value the contributions of the supporting cast.

Lots of people have founded productive companies and made more than $10 million dollars by owning equity which appreciated. Would the value of that equity exist if they had not done it?

But otoh, they really didn't do it entirely alone. They inevitably got a lot of help from paid workers. It gets kind of messy there.

The paid workers got their compensation. The American system that made it all happen should get their fair compensation. All these successful billionaires like my hero Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, and others would not have made it in any other country except America. America needs to get compensated, fair and simple, and it should be upon death so as not to interfere with the businesses they run.

@Ironman, don't go having a midnight meltdown just because the truth hurts your feelings.

You didn't actually think you were rich and successful, did you? Oh dear...

errc says

I don't know, this country has an awful lot of valuable land.

There's something like $15 trillion in land values: https://patrick.net/1304077/2017-03-18-us-government-budget-vs-various-other-large-numbers

All government revenue (fed, state, local) is about $7 trillion per year.

So land would have to be taxed at about half of its value per year. That doesn't seem viable, even if all other taxes go away.

Maybe I've got a big error somewhere. Does government really annually take in 7 trillion / 300 million = $23,000 per human being of any age?

I bet the total value of all land in the US is actually quite a bit higher than $15 trillion.

Strategist says

The paid workers got their compensation. The American system that made it all happen should get their fair compensation. All these successful billionaires like my hero Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, and others would not have made it in any other country except America. America needs to get compensated, fair and simple, and it should be upon death so as not to interfere with the businesses they run.

What would you say to the people who object that that wealth is what remains after taxation when they were alive? Why should it get double taxed?

Maybe it is what we have to do to prevent hereditary aristocracy, but can it be justified?

rando says

Strategist says

The paid workers got their compensation. The American system that made it all happen should get their fair compensation. All these successful billionaires like my hero Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, and others would not have made it in any other country except America. America needs to get compensated, fair and simple, and it should be upon death so as not to interfere with the businesses they run.

What would you say to the people who object that that wealth is what remains after taxation when they were alive? Why should it get double taxed?

Maybe it is what we have to do to prevent hereditary aristocracy, but can it be justified?

I see it in a different light. The tax that was paid is a rate everyone pays. But what made you worth billions is what the American system made it possible, which makes it a partner in the wealth created. I don't believe all of it should be passed on to the heirs who did nothing. Yes, i am a true believer in capitalism as an incentive to create wealth, but once you go to heaven, please pay the system that made it all possible.

I saw a different version of this on Reddit yesterday. Looking for it.

Yeah here. Maybe same guy. Get's to the point more directly.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/61vf1e/the_secret_of_success_from_the_perspective_of_the/

Ironman says

Strategist says

Yes, i am a true believer in capitalism as an incentive to create wealth, but once you go to heaven, please pay the system that made it all possible.

A better plan is to spend it all and have a zero balance when you "check out".

ha ha ha
A negative balance. That's my vile plan if i don't die rich. Screw the banks.
It's only if i have more than $10 million, that i should have to pay the death tax.

Ironman says

rando says

But otoh, they really didn't do it entirely alone.

Oh No, now you sound like Obama, "You didn't build that".

-

Good comic addressing that, also from the reddit thread.

https://digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a-plate-pencilsword-toby-morris/

Ironman says

Too many losers on this site. They whine, they complain, call for revolution, blame others, and think they got screwed even though they contributed nothing.

Ironman says

Strategist says

A negative balance. That's my vile plan if i don't die rich. Screw the banks.

make sure you max out the credit cards too before you check out.

he he he
Those stupid banks keep trying to get me to take their money with zero interest. If I go broke, i will. They can kiss my ass when i refuse to pay.

errc says

My property was just subjected to a county-wide revaluation. The Land Value doubled. Somehow, the value of the building increased as well, just by aging in the elements for another dozen years. Strange

Government is pretty good at helping themselves to our money, they are never good at doing something with it though in return.

Hard work helps, but it's not everything. Knowing right people is more important, because no idea has a chance to succeed without money behind it.

All the rich who I know are are either: (1) talented people who got lucky; or (2) beneficiaries of family business or inheritance.

With family wealth behind, one can afford to take risks, which opens up the possibility to strike big.

Hard work is neither necessary nor sufficient.