patrick.net

Do you understand what an insurance is?
Some people have huge costs, some don't. We are all temporarily able bodied. We are all at risk for huge costs we can't pay without selling the family house.

Therefore spreading the costs makes sense.

Spreading payments is not the problem with healthcare in the US.
The costs are the problem.

Spreading payments is not the problem with healthcare in the US.

----------

Actually, it's a large part of the problem. There's no complex formula that accounts for all your personal inputs and possible outputs wrt your health. So what is the purpose of Private Health Insurance corporations? What are we insuring?

The correct name for the industry is Rent Seekers Assurance.

I imagine two scenarios.

A world with no health insurance
Or
What we have now

I can't think of any value added by health insurance, that we're better off for having, versus just not having it at all. Other than it makes for one hell of a jobs program.

I'm picking option #1:

1. No, I should only be responsible for the care of me and my family.

No way should everyone be entitled to unlimited medical care are everyone else's expense. That's more reverse Darwinism compliments of the Democrat party.

The problem isn't the idea of insuring everyone, it's the centralizing of that insurance under the most wasteful organization in human history, big government.

Although forcing someone to be a part of a system they have no interest in is inherently wrong. What if they want to join later when they get sickly you ask? Make them pay back-payments to make up for the years they weren't insured. But getting back to my first point, these should be administrated at a local level, and if the city is too big, break it up even more.

Of course this entire conversation ignores the AMA, which is responsible for choking supply, and cutting off alternative options(again everyone has the right to choose how they care for themselves). Getting rid of AMA would cut the costs tremendously, along with private insurance at a community level.

NuttBoxer says

The problem isn't the idea of insuring everyone, it's the centralizing of that insurance under the most wasteful organization in human history, big government.

This a thousand times!!!

Our government (even local) can't run an ice-cream stand without driving it into the ground. All over the country State and Local governments are raising taxes and reducing services so they can keep paying their criminally lavish pensions.

Get the corrupting and bankrupting unions out of our government, then we can talk about trusting them with more responsibility over our lives.

Ironman says

Yes, and that was fixed when the Dems passed Obamacare...

Weeeeeeee...!

Blurtman says

In the case of Gilead, it had been shown that they had far surpassed in spades what they paid to acquire the Hep C drug. But there is also the argument that drug development is high risk, and the costs of the losers as well as the winners have to be recovered.

There are hundreds of life saving drugs that we need. If every drug was priced the same way as Gilead priced the Hep C drug, we would be spending 100% of our GDP on drugs.

Blurtman says

Should we all be responsible for everyone else's health care?

Here's what it all comes down to. Would you rather spend 5% of your income in taxes for public health care that takes care of everyone including you, or pay 20% of your post-tax income in health care services and insurance that does no preventative care and will not cover you when you really need it.

It is far cheaper to have a national health care system that
1. Eliminates all private insurance.
2. Regulates health care service prices.
3. Streamlines all billing and accounting.
4. Upholds national standards.
5. Divorces health care and insurance from employment.

If the above reforms were made, everyone would be paying less for health care and getting more of it. And that's why we should nationalize health care. Private industry is extremely inefficient at providing infrastructure, and health care is infrastructure. There's a reason we don't have private sewer systems or private roads.

1 and 6

edit: maybe 5 if you add any self caused issue such as drugs, smoking, ect. fatties for sure

If we give a shit if thousands of Americans die needlessly each year, then we need to go with 2 or 3. If we are just pretending, then we can go with 1.

We also need to stop keeping people alive just for the sake of keeping them alive at all costs. Part of society and health care needs to be refocused on hospice and being able to die in comfort and dignity.

Dan8267 says

5. Divorces health care and insurance from employment.

One would think that corporations would support this. Why don't they ? Is it becasue the high level guys fear that in that world their personal health care wouldn't be as good ?

Ironman says

Wrong... see below..

Hardly. Quoting another baseless assertion is not proof. And if big government is inherently so wasteful and ineffective, then slash the military budget by 90%. If you aren't calling for that, then you are for big government.

While they are on a roll, Republicans should get rid of Bush's Medicare expansion. Why should we pay for the geezer's to load up on pills? Think of the tax cuts that would make way for!

Dan8267 says

Quoting another baseless assertion is not proof.

Yesterday, I was told that a baseless assertion that references another baseless assertion is in fact a proof. Maybe it's a two wrongs make a right, two negatives make a positive, and two imaginary numbers make a real number kind of thing.

rpanic01 says

We also need to stop keeping people alive just for the sake of keeping them alive at all costs. Part of society and health care needs to be refocused on hospice and being able to die in comfort and dignity.

Death panels!!!!

marcus says

Dan8267 says

5. Divorces health care and insurance from employment.

One would think that corporations would support this. Why don't they ? Is it becasue the high level guys fear that in that world their personal health care wouldn't be as good ?

Generally speaking, any expenses an employer incurs related to health insurance (for employees or for dependents) are 100% tax-deductible as ordinary business expenses, on both state and federal income taxes

Also there are tax Credits available for small businesses that provide insurance to their employees.

Not to mention, most people's prime laboring years are the same years that they never ever use any health care.

So the insurance is a complete waste for the employees, but the Company gets preferential tax treatment for providing the "benefit". This allows them to NOT offer any type of retirement even while claiming they are compensating the worker with "insurance ". By the time the worker is old enough to even think about needing any healthcare services, they get the axe from their job. All the while they weren't able to save anything for retirement because all that money was going to private health insurance. Which they no longer have because they were canned for being too old. Now they have no job, no capital accretion towards retirement, AND NO HEALTH INSURANCE.

The only thing more fucked then our healthcare system is the brains of the people that demand we keep having private health insurance operate a toll bridge between demand and supply.

I feel that I'm not responsible for your care if you brought it on by bad choices such as alcoholism, obesity, etc...

Dan8267 says

And that is why Obama failed.

Compromise was the failure; that's why I was so pissed off when he did not let Bush tax cuts expire. You don't see Republicans comprise on anything.

zzyzzx says

No way should everyone be entitled to unlimited medical care are everyone else's expense. That's more reverse Darwinism compliments of the Democrat party.

I don't know on what planet you live but this was always the case, before Obamacare, and from the days of tribal troglodytes.

Human beings take care of their babies, their elderlies, and their sick.

Whether you are liking it or not, people are getting at least emergency care, and there is only 1 fountainhead from which the money is coming: you.

YesYNot says

If we give a shit if thousands of Americans die needlessly each year, then we need to go with 2 or 3

"Americans" means 3, not 2.

Ironman says

I like to rape goats.

Well, at least you admit your problem.

marcus says

One would think that corporations would support this. Why don't they ?

I suspect that most small businesses would welcome not having to provide health benefits and just paying a flat up salary or wage. The headache alone isn't worth dealing with health insurance.

I don't know about large businesses.

YesYNot says

While they are on a roll, Republicans should get rid of Bush's Medicare expansion. Why should we pay for the geezer's to load up on pills?

Contrary to popular belief, the Republicans do have a health care plan, at least for the elderly. Put old people on icebergs and set them to sea, and then let global warming take care of the problem. Two birds, one stone.

FortWayne says

I feel that I'm not responsible for your care if you brought it on by bad choices such as alcoholism, obesity, etc...

And for once, you have a point, although it's inarticulately stated. If health care costs are socialized, then unhealthy behavior like eating fast food or drinking soda costs taxpayer dollars.

However, this point is greatly mitigated by four important facts. First, the cost savings of socialized medicine far outweigh the incurred costs of unhealthy behavior. Second, the unhealthy behavior already costs taxpayer dollars in terms of decrease productivity and increase demand for health care in the private sector. Demand drives up costs for everyone. Third, socializing medical care would greatly reduce such costs by incentivizing preventative care. Right now every time someone gets cancer, profits go up. With socialized medicine the financial incentives would be to prevent the problems, and that's much cheaper than long-term care or surgery. Fourth, the vast majority of health care needs is not caused by "bad behavior", but by things a person cannot control. For example, Most Cancer Cases Arise from "Bad Luck".

In a study published on Thursday in Science, they double down on their original finding but also labor mightily to correct widespread misinterpretations of it. This time, using health records from 69 countries, they conclude that 66 percent of cancer-causing genetic mutations arise from the “bad luck” of a healthy, dividing cell making a random mistake when it copies its DNA.

The scientists go to great pains to explain that this doesn’t mean that two-thirds of cancers are beyond the reach of prevention. But understanding the role of these unforced errors “could provide comfort to the millions of patients who developed cancer but led near-perfect [healthy] lifestyles,” said cancer biologist Dr. Bert Vogelstein of Johns Hopkins University, senior author of both the original study and the new one. “This is particularly true for parents of children who have cancer” and might blame the tragedy on the genes they passed on to their child or the environment they provided, he said.

So, FortWayne, do you feel that you are responsible for the care of others brought on by bad luck? This is not a rhetorical question.

Blurtman says

To be fair, the so-called Blue Dog Democrats would also have blocked any efforts at single payer.

Which is why they need to be kicked out and replaced by people like Bernie Sanders.

Ironman says

15 year old pimply immature asshole

I may be an asshole, but I'm more mature than you and not nearly as ugly. And I'm sure as hell not 15.

Ironman says

mis-quoting people

Yes, I deliberately misquoted you to demonstrate how asinine you are for repeatedly misquoting me. And yes, taking a sentence fragment out of context to imply it says the exact opposite of what it actually does is misquoting. So you are a complete hypocrite.

Ironman says

Dan8267 says

Hardly. Quoting another baseless assertion

Contrast that to what Dan actually said

Hardly. Quoting another baseless assertion is not proof. And if big government is inherently so wasteful and ineffective, then slash the military budget by 90%. If you aren't calling for that, then you are for big government.

The world has never witness such great hypocrisy as piggy to express moral outrage at misquotes that demonstrate he is deliberately misquoting people. He is a morally bankrupt person, and a stupid one at that for thinking his lies could not be easily exposed, like he exposes himself to the animals at the petting zoo.

Dan8267 says

So, FortWayne, do you feel that you are responsible for the care of others brought on by bad luck? This is not a rhetorical question.

I believe that only bad choices that could have been avoided should not be socialized such as alcoholism, obesity, etc. Reward responsibility, punish irresponsibility. Bad luck isn't irresponsible, it's just shitty so hence it is ok. What does government do? Generally they reward irresponsible behavior, which is why I don't trust our government to get it right.

NO that's silly those that work in the Federal Heathcare system should be responsible for health. It shouldn't be anyone's business but theirs and yours.

Ironman says

Except Obamacare put 3/4 of new enrollees on Medicaid, significantly EXPANDING the number of people on FREE, unlimited healthcare (that YOU'RE paying for).

You don't get it.
You are paying for them, one way or an other.

Ironman says

Why should OTHER people have to contribute to the healthcare of people who VOLUNTARILY destroyed their bodies by stuffing their pie holes and NOT taking care of themselves??

That average people have limited will power is obvious and unchangeable.
Of course there are PhDs studying every ways to make food addictive and how to trick idiots into consuming gallons of sodas.
But of course you don't have a problem with that: it drives profit.
So you can't complain about the consequences.

Dan8267 says

Put old people on icebergs and set them to sea, and then let global warming take care of the problem.

APCOLYPSEFUCKCARE!!!

Ironman says

Well, finally a truthful statement

You really are incapable of being clever. Aren't you?

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

So, FortWayne, do you feel that you are responsible for the care of others brought on by bad luck? This is not a rhetorical question.

I believe that only bad choices that could have been avoided should not be socialized such as alcoholism, obesity, etc. Reward responsibility, punish irresponsibility. Bad luck isn't irresponsible, it's just shitty so hence it is ok. What does government do? Generally they reward irresponsible behavior, which is why I don't trust our government to get it right.

That's not what I asked you. I asked you, "do you feel that you are responsible for the care of others brought on by bad luck?". It's a valid question.

Unlike you, if I were gay I'd have no problem with it. And frankly, you'd be happier if you just came out of the closet.

Dan8267 says

That's not what I asked you. I asked you, "do you feel that you are responsible for the care of others brought on by bad luck?". It's a valid question.

I see. Well since you asked. I don't feel that it's a must, however I would not be opposed to the idea if it brings benefit to everyone (lowers costs for everyone through pooling). If it makes it cost more for me than I'll be selfish and oppose the idea naturally.

FortWayne says

If it makes it cost more for me than I'll be selfish and oppose the idea naturally.

And that's why you vote Republican. They embody that philosophy.

Funny how the Jesus lovers turn out to be the least compassionate, the most cruel, unforgiving and selfish.

FP says

Funny how the Jesus lovers turn out to be the least compassionate, the most cruel, unforgiving and selfish.

Subjecting people to government run health care(ie single payer) is the most cruel punishment of all.