patrick.net

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

OK, but in Dan's view socialism is the best thing that happened since sliced bread.

I've never said anything that could even remotely be interpreted as that by anyone who isn't batshit crazy.

I've said that no society could be ran without socialism, and that's true, because with zero socialism, you have no funding for public goods and services like defense, roadways, sewers, police, etc.

Also, I've said that socialism is an economic tactic, not an economic system. There's a big difference between the two.

Strategist says

Capitalism is the worst and results in failure.

I've never said it was the worse. Feudalism is the worst. But capitalism and communism and feudalism are all bad for the exact same reasons including, but not limited to, the fact th...

OK, here is a test:
1. Name 2 bad things about socialism.
2. Name 2 good things about capitalism.
3. Why has Venezuela failed so miserably.

FP says

sagacious1 says

For those who have experienced the affects of true Socialism, the post in quote is sickening at a visceral level.

1. I doubt what you are referring to as "true socialism" is what Dan is writing about.

2. I have many friends from Eastern Europe and the former USSR. Most of them tell me they had very happy childhoods. Nobody has mentioned torture or suffering. That's way in the past.

3. You are mixing socialism with totalitarianism.

4. It's effects, not affects.

I am indeed referring to true Socialism, as was ushered in and established in the former Soviet Union (the gold standard for Socialism). It's nice you have friends in those areas. My father was born in a Soviet Gulag (Tomsk, Siberia to be precise). We lost our entire family to torture, execution and brutalization, along with as many as 25 million other innocent people. It never ceases to amaze me how that many people can be tortured and murdered and few are aware it, or why it occurred. It does explain the general naivety of the average American. However, history is not lost to me for obvious reasons. My mother was born in Eastern Europe (Poland) and suffered as well, yet was able survive with her family intact. In essence they suffered under perhaps the 2 most evil people in recent history (Hitler and Stalin). Yes for some this seems a long time ago, though both my parents are still living. We have relatives in the former Eastern block countries, and I had opportunity to visit while still under Soviet rule...it was not a pleasant existence. I can speak of facts regarding Socialism that I'm aware of. It is first hand experience...and it is ruthless and brutal. Of course, you are correct....it is effect not affect.

Strategist says

OK, here is a test:

1. Name 2 bad things about socialism.

2. Name 2 good things about capitalism.

3. Why has Venezuela failed so miserably.

All good ideas can have bad implementations. The excessive amounts we are spending on the military is a bad use of socialism. That's 1.

The scope of socialism could also be incorrectly set. The roads should not be paid for by property taxes but rather by automobile usage by mileage, or if that's not practical, by a gas tax, although that gets even less accurate with purely electric vehicles. Scope the socialization of costs to the users of the goods or services, not to a larger group. That's 2.

As for naming two good things about capitalism, it cannot be done honestly. There is nothing about separating the wealth creators from the owners and giving owners all the power over the distribution of wealth. If you name anything you think is a good thing about capitalism, I'll show you that it is not something created by capitalism but rather by something else like commerce or free markets.

Why has Venezuela failed so miserably? Multiple reasons.
1. Totalitarianism
2. Religion
3. Single major product: oil. And oil prices have collapsed.
4. Corruption
5. Bad implementation of policies
6. Communism, which in its purest state is just like capitalism in its purest state, control of all resources by the few.
7. Quantitative easing, a.k.a., inflation, printing money, currency debasement. Venezuela has done a lot of this.

And that's just off the top of my head. If I studied the issue, I could probably come up with more reasons and more details and subtleties.

Again, take my challenge. Name one thing good about capitalism, and I'll show you why capitalism doesn't cause that.

sagacious1, again, let's distinguish socialism from totalitarianism.

I have been to Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Hungary in the 80's and it wasn't that bad there. Actually it was nice. Poland of course had problems in the 80's. I've heard things were not so good in Romania too. The gulags were much earlier.

Dan8267 says

Why has Venezuela failed so miserably? Multiple reasons.

If I may add one more - sabotage.

Strategist says

Instead, they waste their time and the time of others by trying to convert others.

Perhaps they understand something that you do not: that a change of circumstances is meaningless beside a change of heart. If people continue on with their self destructive ways, nobody can ever help them! All a helpful person can ever manage is to be sucked down into their morass. If you've ever known a drug addict, you'll understand this truth. There's absolutely no helping them until they change their ways. So the church attempts to rehabilitate them from the core of their being, their heart (subconscious). There are far too many success stories to discount this method of saving someone so flippantly.

sagacious1 says

FP says

sagacious1 says

For those who have experienced the affects of true Socialism, the post in quote is sickening at a visceral level.

1. I doubt what you are referring to as "true socialism" is what Dan is writing about.

I frequently encounter this position and I find it alarming. I would respectfully suggest, any notion of good "forms" of Socialism is nothing more than part and parcel of an ugly diseased organ of evil governance. That these "forms" are merely stages, enroute to it's ultimate and complete consummation. I feel badly for the people of Venezuela, yet they bear some responsibility for their circumstance insomuch as they had a choice, and of their own free will chose this system, unlike those in Russia. It was to be a good thing, it was progressive and modern. It was to be Utopia for the people.They were duped and had they imagined this outcome, it's fair to say they may have chosen otherwise. Now their choices are relegated to the system, who views the individual disposable and the "community" priority. The veil has been lifted in Venezuela, and the true face of Socialism revealed. Man cannot be trusted with this evil ideology, as exampled by Maduro's callous quip of the "Venezuelan weigh loss program" describing the starvation of his people.

Having recently discovered this forum, I do enjoy the discussions and sharing of views....I am thankful for it, and that I have the liberty and freedom to express myself without fear of retribution. I don't feel we as Americans fully comprehend the significance of that singular act....as though it will always be granted us. Yet, I have expounded far more than typical for me and especially on this subject. At this time, I must step back from this topic specifically...it's simply too mentally exhausting.

They don't need forgiveness, they made their own bed. Kind of like liberals who are screwing America and think they got virtue.

FP says

FortWayne says

Socialists ran out of other people's money

Love and Forgiveness "I only read one book" ran out of things to say

Dan8267 says

Again, take my challenge. Name one thing good about capitalism, and I'll show you why capitalism doesn't cause that.

Innovation. Capitalism has the ability to innovate and bring new products to the masses.Products that improve the lives of billions.
e.g. Smart phones, electricity, airplanes, computers, and virtually everything you use.

FortWayne says

They don't need forgiveness, they made their own bed. Kind of like liberals who are screwing America and think they got virtue.

FP says

FortWayne says

Socialists ran out of other people's money

Love and Forgiveness "I only read one book" ran out of things to say

I see my nickname for you is spot on.

Strategist says

Innovation. Capitalism has the ability to innovate and bring new products to the masses.Products that improve the lives of billions.

e.g. Smart phones, electricity, airplanes, computers, and virtually everything you use.

Glad you pointed out that all these things are made in America

Socialism is really great for creating poor people, lots of em.

Not sure if you've looked out your window lately, but capitalism does a pretty good job of creating poor people too.

That's created by socialist policies and stupid liberal behavior. And even that is nothing compared to the rest of the world where their struggle is far worse.

joeyjojojunior says

Not sure if you've looked out your window lately, but capitalism does a pretty good job of creating poor people too.

joeyjojojunior says

Not sure if you've looked out your window lately, but capitalism does a pretty good job of creating poor people too.

In socialism, everyone is poor. Except for the politicians, and their military.

Actually capitalism absolutely creates poverty--socialistic policies are what governments create to reduce the poverty that is naturally created under capitalism. Capitalism naturally creates enormous wealth disparity and extreme poverty.

joeyjojojunior says

Actually capitalism absolutely creates poverty--socialistic policies are what governments create to reduce the poverty that is naturally created under capitalism. Capitalism naturally creates enormous wealth disparity and extreme poverty.

In Venezuela the peasants are starving. "Let them eat cake" in America.
And that is exactly what the people of Venezuela pray to do. Go to America, the land where peasants eat cake.

Clearly Venezuela is crappy. I wouldn't draw any overreaching conclusions based on it though.

Strategist says

Innovation. Capitalism has the ability to innovate and bring new products to the masses.Products that improve the lives of billions.

e.g. Smart phones, electricity, airplanes, computers, and virtually everything you use.

Once again, you are completely wrong. Capitalism discourages innovation because the inventor does not own his invention, but rather his boss does. There are millions of Americans who don't invent because the company they work for would own their inventions.

Now, if you are saying that the inventor should work in his own business and invent things, that's not capitalism. That's self-ownership of the work you create, which is the exact opposite of capitalism. Capitalism is people with money, called owners, paying others to do work like inventing and then the owners get to control the invention and the revenue stream the invention creates. The inventor gets the short end of the stick. This does not encourage invention or innovations. It greatly discourages it.

However, in all societies there are many forces at play. Although capitalism discourages innovation, commerce and self-ownership of one's work greatly encourages innovation. Having free markets with no barriers to entry also encourages innovation, but capitalism fights against free markets and erects barriers. Why do you think the big telecoms are fighting right now to destroy net neutrality by moving ISP rules from title two to title one? They want to end the free market of bit delivery.

The fact is you still don't understand the difference between commerce and capitalism, between the innovator owning his innovations versus some owner class owning things they didn't invent. The guy who cures cancer isn't going to make a dime off the cure. All the profits will go to the executives at Pfizer who don't even know that hydrogen hydroxide is water. Innovators don't get the fruits of their labor under capitalism. They only get the wealth they created if they own the product of their own labor. Such a system is not capitalism, communism, or feudalism. It would be an unnamed new system.

Get it through your thick skull that capitalism is not commerce. If it were, it'd be call commercialism. Capitalism is not trade. If it were, it'd be call tradism. Capitalism is not free markets. If it were, it'd be call market liberalism. Capitalism is not banking. If it were, it'd be call bankism. The word capitalism literally means "moneyism". It means that those who have money, get to own all production and inventions and the revenue streams those things create and thus get more money to own more of production. Such a system, by design, concentrates all wealth and all production into the hands of a very few people who do no work, produce no goods, and do no innovation. Capitalism is that one specific mechanism and nothing else.

If you want an economic system in which innovators get to keep ownership of their inventions and thus the lion's share of the wealth created by their innovation, that's not capitalism. If you want an economic system with free markets, that's not capitalism. If you want an economic system based on unrestricted commerce, that's not capitalism. If you want an economic system that rewards productivity and only productivity, that's not capitalism. If you want an economic system in which everyone's income is determined solely by their wealth creation, that's not capitalism.

You can have an economic system with all the above properties, but it wouldn't be capitalism, communism, or feudalism. It would be something new. If you want to call this new system capitalism because the very word capitalism gives you a hard-on, then fine, we can lie and call it capitalism, but we still have to understand that it's not capitalism. It breaks the mechanism of letting rich people own the creations of innovators and workers, and that's a good thing.

You seem to care so much more about labels than how the system actually works. Labels are bullshit. All that matters is the engineering of the economy. And the system we use right now has a fundamental flaw that drastically lowers wealth creation, which is something that can grow exponentially. If we had the system I described a mere 50 years ago, our current GDP would be at least ten times as great. Imagine if you real wealth were ten times greater. If you are an innovator, your real wealth would be even more than that under my system because you'd own your own work.

Stop treating economics like tribal religion. Start treating it as engineering.

FortWayne says

Socialism is really great for creating poor people, lots of em.

So, Fort Wayne, would you cut the defense budget by 90%?

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Innovation. Capitalism has the ability to innovate and bring new products to the masses.Products that improve the lives of billions.


e.g. Smart phones, electricity, airplanes, computers, and virtually everything you use.

Once again, you are completely wrong. Capitalism discourages innovation because the inventor does not own his invention, but rather his boss does. There are millions of Americans who don't invent because the company they work for would own their inventions.

Now, if you are saying that the inventor should work in his own business and invent things, that's not capitalism. That's self-ownership of the work you create, which is the exact opposite of capitalism. Capitalism is people with money, called owners, paying others to do work like inventing and then the owners get to control the invention and the revenue stream the invention crea...

ha ha ha ha. What a load of crap you just posted. Who owns the innovations in Socialist countries? that is, if they had any innovation.

Dan8267 says

Why has Venezuela failed so miserably? Multiple reasons.

1. Totalitarianism

Why do Marxist/Socialist states produce so many Totalitarians - Dan? Socialism by definition requires bequeathing more power to the State to control our economy through price controls and nationalization of industries. So it is easier for Totalitarians to rise to power and use the awesome power of the State for corruption.

Every Commie sympathizer always complains "they did Communism wrong!" or "Socialism is not Communism!"

Left-wing morons just a few years ago were proclaiming Venezuela was an economic miracle!

Hugo Chavez’s economic miracle
http://www.salon.com/2013/03/06/hugo_chavezs_economic_miracle/

joeyjojojunior says

Actually capitalism absolutely creates poverty--socialistic policies are what governments create to reduce the poverty that is naturally created under capitalism. Capitalism naturally creates enormous wealth disparity and extreme poverty.

Capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty in the last 30 years than anything on the planet.

Towards the end of poverty
"Nearly 1 billion people have been taken out of extreme poverty in 20 years. The world should aim to do the same again"
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21578665-nearly-1-billion-people-have-been-taken-out-extreme-poverty-20-years-world-should-aim

socal2 says

Why do Marxist/Socialist states produce so many Totalitarians - Dan?

Socialist states like Finland and Denmark?

Strategist says

ha ha ha ha. What a load of crap you just posted. Who owns the innovations in Socialist countries? that is, if they had any innovation.

I wrote a detailed and clear explanation, and that piece of crap response is the most you can muster?

Honey, socialism isn't an economic system. It's a specific tactic. It's also a tactic that no society could ever do without using. Without socialism there would be no military, no police, no fire fighters, no highways, no roads, no sewers. Are you willing to give all those things up?

The U.S. military is the largest socialist program in all of human history. If we cut 90% of its funding, we'd still be spending more than anyone else. So tell me Strategist, would you slash the military budget by 90%?

If you don't answer like all the other cowards who refused to answer this question, then the answer is obviously no and you are a complete hypocrite for calling socialism unworkable while supporting the largest socialist program in all of history. And this is why I cannot take you seriously on any subject. Your entire belief system is self-contradictory.

socal2 says

Capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty in the last 30 years than anything on the planet.

Actually it is the implementation of socialist policies, safety nets, employment regulations, etc. within democratic countries that is responsible for lifting people out of poverty.

Also, if you look at the major countries that have made the transition from developing to developed countries (Japan, Korea, China), you can see the crucial role that governments have played. Unbridled capitalism without regulation and some planning just doesn't work.

socal2 says

Why do Marxist/Socialist states produce so many Totalitarians - Dan?

Same exact reason that capitalist societies like the United States do. Remember, our country has committed dozens of genocides, had multiple torture centers, has murdered children for political reasons, has conducted lethal medical experiments on our citizens without their knowledge, has the greatest number of political prisoners of any country in the world, practiced slavery and segregation, practiced cruel child labor, and used the police and national guard to silence protestors with deadly force.

The reason is the same whether your in a capitalist or a communist society. Concentration of wealth and power into the hands of the few causes those few to commit atrocities to retain and expand that concentration of wealth. The only way to prevent such atrocities is to prevent that concentration of wealth, and both capitalism and communism actively promote that concentration, as does feudalism. In fact, capitalism, communism, and feudalism are essentially the same economic system with slightly different implementation details. They are all centralized, wealth concentrating economies that inevitably lead to mass numbers of poor people where poverty is inherent as much as wealth is.

Of course, you don't like this answer, so you will say it's wrong, but you won't be able to justify that contradiction.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

ha ha ha ha. What a load of crap you just posted. Who owns the innovations in Socialist countries? that is, if they had any innovation.

I wrote a detailed and clear explanation, and that piece of crap response is the most you can muster?

I know you wrote in detail. Does not make it acceptable. When you add crap to crap, you end up with more crap.

Dan8267 says

Honey, socialism isn't an economic system. It's a specific tactic. It's also a tactic that no society could ever do without using. Without socialism there would be no military, no police, no fire fighters, no highways, no roads, no sewers. Are you willing to give all those things up?

The U.S. military is the largest socialist program in all of human history. If we cut 90% of its funding, we'd still be spending more than anyone else. So tell me Strategist, would you slash the military budget by 90%?

The answer is No, and No again. Because it would be a stupid thing to do.

Strategist says

I know you wrote in detail. Does not make it acceptable. When you add crap to crap, you end up with more crap.

Calling something crap isn't sufficient to make a case. You have to show that your opponents argument are wrong, not just call them crap. I can easily say that everything you've ever written is crap. Does that sound like a sufficient counterargument?

The fact that you cannot refute my statements is evidence that you are simply wrong.

Strategist says

The answer is No, and No again. Because it would be a stupid thing to do.

Then you clearly like a hell of a lot of socialism, and that undermines your position. Since you support the largest social program in all of history, you clearly don't actually think socialism is unworkable. If you don't believe what you are saying, why the hell should I?

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

The answer is No, and No again. Because it would be a stupid thing to do.

Then you clearly like a hell of a lot of socialism, and that undermines your position. Since you support the largest social program in all of history, you clearly don't actually think socialism is unworkable.

I support a balance of socialism and capitalism. That is what works best.

Strategist says

I support a balance of socialism and capitalism. That is what works best.

Your statement is meaningless as socialism does not contradict capitalism. Once again you are confusing socialism and communism. Get a dictionary.

In any case, clearly your supposition that socialism is evil and unworkable isn't even believed by you.

If only you could ditch the tribal mindset of yours regarding economics, we could have a conversation on what should be socialized and what shouldn't be and why. However, that's impossible as long as you treat economics like a religion and a culture rather than as a mathematically driven engineering discipline. There are no tribes in engineering. There is only math and physics.

Dan8267 says

Capitalism is people with money, called owners, paying others to do work like inventing and then the owners get to control the invention and the revenue stream the invention creates. The inventor gets the short end of the stick.

At an unnamed top American drug company, team of people who developed a multi-billion $ drug were fired a few years later. Reason - since they were successful, they had higher salaries, so getting rid of them would save company much money. Besides, what is the chance they will be able to develop a second multi-billion $ drug?

drBu says

At an unnamed top American drug company, team of people who developed a multi-billion $ drug were fired a few years later. Reason - since they were successful, they had higher salaries, so getting rid of them would save company much money

This is a perfect example of how capitalism discourages innovation. The people who invent drugs do not get the rewards of that invention. The owners do. If you want smart people working hard inventing drugs, then the inventors (the workers) need to get the financial rewards rather than the owners who can't do any chemistry and don't invent anything.

If people like strategist weren't so religious of economics, they would realize that the key to encouraging innovation is to reward innovators, not owners, and that would be, by definition, abandoning capitalism. If we did get rid of capitalism and replace the reward mechanism with one that rewarded innovation and productivity, our GDP would be higher, we'd have more inventors and innovators, our per capita productivity would be higher, and less funding for social safety nets like welfare and unemployment would be necessary, and so taxes would also go down.

But because strategist looks at economics like culture, he will never accept this. Ironically, he's impoverishing himself by willfully remaining ignorant.

I've seen some comments where people are using Canada's health care system to show that somehow socialized healthcare is the best way to go.

The average wait time to see a specialist (ENT, OBGYN, etc) is nearing 20 weeks now across all provinces. Last week I had a slight ear infection and saw an ENT specialist the SAME day I noticed I had symptoms.

That's why socialized health care doesn't work. Government rationing will never be as good as the invisible hand.

You do realize that even private health insurance is socialism? You are literally socializing costs whenever you use insurance of any kind.

My colleague next office is Canadian. Had two children born there. Father had serious hart desease treatment recently. Loves the Canadian health care system, as do most Canadians.

The problems they have are minor compared to ours and can be relatively easily fixed.

FP says

My colleague next office is Canadian. Had two children born there. Father had serious hart desease treatment recently. Loves the Canadian health care system, as do most Canadians.

The problems they have are minor compared to ours and can be relatively easily fixed.

I have co-workers from Canada, Australia, UK. In the heat of Obamacare debates all professed love of their respective home country's healthcare systems. All think that problems are minor and can be relatively easily fixed. None of them going back. The guy from UK wanted transfer to US office explicitly to be able to have children, because UK system was unable to make it happen for him and his wife. Now he has two kids. Still moaning about "slavery that US healthcare system is" and how it "prevents him from doing his own thing". Still not going back. It's been 10+ years since he moved here, btw.

So reducing cost isn't the important factor? Wait times are what you're worried about?

joeyjojojunior says

So reducing cost isn't the important factor? Wait times are what you're worried about?

Sure I'd like to reduce cost, but not to the detriment of quality.

I've made a good life for myself, I'm a multi-millionaire, and I want to be able to purchase the best healthcare I can afford for me and my family, from the most motivated brilliant doctors that can see me, not some shared misery with everyone else where the doctors are all paid some state rate and the system doesn't attract the best and brightest people because their pay rates are being artificially suppressed.

20 weeks to wait for a specialist is not a good quality healthcare system. That can actually lead to many preventable deaths. If I want to see a high quality ENT specialist the same day, that should be an option for me, not some inefficient government rationing system.

The VA is a socialized, government run, health care system. How is that working out for America's veterans?

So, in other words--

Got mine, eff you.

But, in reality, universal systems can have options where you can purchase improved service.