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To be sure George W. Bush and his agreement with the Saudis to invade Iraq as "retaliation" for the Saudi attack on America on 9/11 is one factor which has helped the Islamic terrorist wave along. Bush should be in jail.
This is nonsense. I thought we discussed this before? The Saudis publicly and privately didn't want Saddam toppled because they knew the Shia majority would take over in Iraq and give Iran more influence.......as they most certainly did.
Strategist
2017 May 23, 7:25pm
There is plenty of violence and hate in this world that has nothing to do with religion.
There is plenty of violence in this world not caused by North Korea having nukes and ICBMs. That does not imply that it's OK for North Korea to have nukes and ICBMs. Is logic really that hard?
Good thinking Dan. There is hope for you after all.
Do us a favor and knock some sense into Pinky.
Shaman
2017 May 23, 7:26pm
Can you imagine what would happen if a group of Christians put together a new Crusade against ISIS, chartered a few boats, and set sail for Syria loaded down with weapons and ammo? What kind of world condemnation would result? Would the ship even be allowed to arrive or be torpedoed to the bottom by UN interests?
Yet the reverse is happening and we shake our heads and cry diversity...
Strategist
2017 May 23, 7:27pm
No violence required. No war. Just honesty and courage.
Yes, but honesty and courage in opposition to all religions, not just the worse one.
Starting with the worst one. What's the point of attacking the Buddhist Dalai Lama when all he wants to do is meditate.
Perhaps the Internet doesn't work where you are, or nobody has taught you how to use a search engine. You might consider China (61% atheist, 6% religious), and several other successful countries have wide majorities who are not religious. You don't know what "we always had" unless you are a lot older and better read than you appear to be.
THAT"s your example? China?? For real?
A country that a few decades ago killed tens of millions of their own people and have now totally fucked up their demographic balance with their forced abortion and sterilization policies resulting in huge numbers of men with no women to marry? Millions and millions of little spoiled napoleon-complex males with no sexual outlet. That will end well!
Europe is regressing in part because their atheist culture can't even be bothered to procreate to maintain their welfare state, let alone their civilization. Same deal with Russia. A hollowed out country of alcoholics. It's fucking bleak if you ask me.
History belongs to those who bother to show up.
Strategist
2017 May 23, 7:54pm
Europe is regressing in part because their atheist culture can't even be bothered to procreate to maintain their welfare state, let alone their civilization. Same deal with Russia. A hollowed out country of alcoholics. It's fucking bleak if you ask me.
My prediction is, by the end of the century the majority of the world's population will be a highly educated, productive, and almost totally atheist.
Religion is nothing but history, myths, rumors, superstitions, and a hell of a lot of nonsense. Religion causes wars, human rights abuses, and restricts scientific development and progress. If anyone wants to believe all that supernatural nonsense that religion preaches, please go ahead. There is no law against stupidity.
curious2
2017 May 23, 7:56pm
History belongs to those who bother to show up.
I have to agree with that. You have made some good points.
Marcus tried to make some of the same points, but stumbled into false and illogical absolutes and emotional ad hominem nonsense.
One question though: how have all other species aside from humans survived without religion? You don't see most bears paying a subset of bears to opine about imaginary deities. You don't even see other primates doing that. If religion is essential to our success, how did our pre-human ancestors manage to succeed without it?
Perhaps when you criticize atheism, you're really trying to criticize modern western materialism, which arrived in Russia amid the collapse of Soviet communism.
Blind beliefs, what religions are about, predispose towards tribalism, fanaticism, and enable manipulation. The degree to which they are able to influence people depend on the circumstances - education of the population, economic and political situation, etc. However, given the "right" conditions, they incite and justify horrible acts.
Right now, a large part of the muslim world lives in such conditions - lack of education, poverty, overpopulation, fail states, foreign interventions, aggressions and occupations. It is therefore not surprising that right now muslims are the perpetrators of horrific acts incited by religion. However, if we look into the not too distant past, there are plenty of instances of other religious groups conducting atrocities. So the specifics of the muslim religion alone cannot explain the terrorist acts today.
If people adhering to other religions are put into similar circumstances (including educational lever, religiousness, etc), I expect that they will also turn to violence. Maybe the degree of savagery or the methods of killing will be different, but these are details. The mere existence/influence of religion and the other factors mentioned above are primary and more important than the exact flavor or religion. You cannot change the religion and reduce its influence before educating people and improving their way of life.
Strategist
2017 May 23, 8:09pm
If religion is essential to our success, how did our pre-human ancestors manage to succeed without it?
They don't believe we had pre-human ancestors. They think we did not evolve, and the earth is only 6,000 years old.
I once read....."God was a primitive means of explaining the unknown" Yes, we humans started to think then, but we could only come up with primitive theories called God and religion due to our limited knowledge. We know that is nonsense today, but clearly we have not advanced enough to know where everything came from.
They don't believe we had pre-human ancestors. They think we did not evolve, and the earth is only 6,000 years old.
Catholics believe in evolution. Jews believe in evolution. Do you not know this?
One question though: how have all other species aside from humans survived without religion? You don't see most bears paying a subset of bears to opine about imaginary deities. You don't even see other primates doing that. If religion is essential to our success, how did our pre-human ancestors manage to succeed without it?
Our pre-human ancestors didn't succeed. They are all extinct.
Bears (and many other nuisance species like great white sharks) would be extinct if humans didn't purposefully choose to conserve them at the expense of risking our own lives.
Humans are at the absolute top of all species. Nothing else comes close. What other species create art, music..........and organized religion?
Patrick
2017 May 23, 8:28pm
This is nonsense. I thought we discussed this before? The Saudis publicly and privately didn't want Saddam toppled because they knew the Shia majority would take over in Iraq and give Iran more influence.......as they most certainly did.
OK, I've read about it and you're right. The Saudis feared an Iraqi invasion, but they also feared the breakup of Iraq and a resulting Shia-dominated part, which has in fact happened. And so they did not support the US invasion of Iraq.
The US ignored Saudi involvement in 9/11 and attacked Iraq simply because the excuse of 9/11 gave them the opportunity. Couldn't have Saddam threatening to price oil in Euros, because that would put the dollar under threat.
It does look like Bandar was involved in planning 9/11, though I still don't understand why exactly.
curious2
2017 May 23, 8:31pm
You cannot change the religion and reduce its influence before educating people and improving their way of life.
That's a false absolute, and it doesn't explain the radical disparities between Muslim countries and other countries that have similar poverty. Muslims are vastly more likely to commit terrorism than similarly poor people of any other religion. And, again, among Muslims, education and wealth increase the risk of terrorism; I don't know how many times I have to keep repeating that before it gets through. Think of OBL with his $10 million and university degree: that's a lot of education and improvement to deliver, only to see it diverted to jihad.
Our pre-human ancestors didn't succeed. They are all extinct.
Bears (and many other nuisance species like great white sharks) would be extinct if humans didn't purposefully choose to conserve them....
Neanderthals lived more than twice as long as humans have lived. Other species have been around much longer, and continue into the present, and may yet outlive us. The fact humans have exterminated many other species is not exactly an endorsement of religion. Human scientists deserve credit for exterminating smallpox, but most scientists are atheists or agnostic; exterminating many other species was a self-defeating blunder.
What other species create art, music..........and organized religion?
I'm delighted to learn that you appreciate Lady Gaga, but are you saying there were no successful civilizations before she arrived? I'm a fan, but even I survived for years before first hearing her name, and back then I did not even realize that she was essential. Today, yes, of course. And that's the issue with calling something essential: without it, what would have arisen instead?
FortWayne
2017 May 23, 8:44pm
Right now, a large part of the muslim world lives in such conditions - lack of education, poverty, overpopulation, fail states, foreign interventions, aggressions and occupations. It is therefore not surprising that right now muslims are the perpetrators of horrific acts incited by religion. However, if we look into the not too distant past, there are plenty of instances of other religious groups conducting atrocities. So the specifics of the muslim religion alone cannot explain the terrorist acts today.
FP, no one cares about past history. Right now there is a whole lot of muslim terrorists who wish death upon us all. ISIS was started under that premise. And the only reason those martyr occasions are rare is because they are fighting in the middle east, and can't afford to create more death in our country.
Christianity = love and forgiveness.
Islam (the popular ISIS verion) = murder everyone else.
That's no comparison today. Expecting those people to stop attempting to kill us is foolishly naive. Their business model and faith depends on murdering us.
marcus
2017 May 23, 8:51pm
They don't believe we had pre-human ancestors. They think we did not evolve, and the earth is only 6,000 years old.
You see if you need to believe this, what does it say about how secure you are in your beliefs ?
You could ask 100 Catholic priests, 200 protestant ministers (not fundies), i.e Episcopalian, Presbitarian, Lutheran, etc, 100 Rabbis and possibly not find a single one that believes this.
Kinda sad that you need to lie about what being religious means, in order to justify not believing. I don't particularly believe myself, but I believe there may be value in religion, an I admire some people who have faith. And I don't have any need to lie about what modern non fundamentalist religion is.
Strategist
2017 May 23, 9:00pm
Kinda sad that you need to lie about what being religious means, in order to justify not believing. I don't particularly believe myself, but I believe there may be value in religion, an I admire some people who have faith. And I don't have any need to lie about what modern non fundamentalist religion is.
Yes, there can be value in religion at times, but that does not negate the fact that religion is the number one cause of wars, human rights abuse, and suppression of progress.
Islam is the ultimate proof.
Neanderthals lived more than twice as long as humans have lived. Other species have been around much longer, and continue into the present, and may yet outlive us.
Of course. Cockroaches will probably outlive everything. There are millions of little microscopic organisms (and plants) that have been around forever that you and I don't even know about, but we wouldn't consider them advanced life.
None of them are writing music.
Human scientists deserve credit for exterminating smallpox, but most scientists are atheists or agnostic; exterminating many other species was a self-defeating blunder.
My great uncle was a Catholic Jesuit Priest and a published geneticist long before Vatican II. My wife's friend who is staying with us this week is an ER doctor and a devout orthodox Jew and has 3 little kids and counting. I dare say that both of them can run circles around us in terms of scientific thought and accomplishment, yet their devout beliefs in God isn't holding them back. In fact, I dare say their devout religious beliefs helped them thrive. My wife's Dr. friend staying with us faced massive adversity early in life and she attributes her religious beliefs helping her get through it and her success in adulthood. And since she is bothering to have children who will be well educated and loved, chances are the human species will continue to advance and be better off for it.
it doesn't explain the radical disparities between Muslim countries and other countries that have similar poverty
poverty is not the only factor that maters; I listed several other things
FP, no one cares about past history.
Past history was mentioned and is relevant in the context of my discussion Patrick. You obviously did not understand.
Christianity = love and forgiveness.
Good. Then as a christian person, what do you do to stop your government (made of christians as well) to stop killing thousands of people abroad?
Let me guess - you put your head in the sand and deny it's happening.
FortWayne
2017 May 23, 9:14pm
Catholics believe in evolution.
how come? - it contradicts their book of magic
You know nothing about Christianity.
FortWayne
2017 May 23, 9:17pm
Christianity = love and forgiveness.
Good. Then as a christian person, what do you do to stop your government (made of christians as well) to stop killing thousands of people abroad?
Let me guess - you put your head in the sand and deny it's happening.
We Christians aren't the problem here. You are just clueless about everything around you man. They want us dead, it's not for us to surrender our country to them and let them murder everyone they can.
FortWayne
2017 May 23, 9:17pm
You know nothing about Christianity.
What? There is a new interpretation?
No, you just don't know anything.
Strategist
2017 May 23, 9:18pm
My great uncle was a Catholic Jesuit Priest and a published geneticist long before Vatican II. My wife's friend who is staying with us this week is an ER doctor and a devout orthodox Jew and has 3 little kids and counting. I dare say that both of them can run circles around us in terms of scientific thought and accomplishment, yet their devout beliefs in God isn't holding them back. In fact, I dare say their devout religious beliefs helped them thrive. My wife's Dr. friend staying with us faced massive adversity early in life and she attributes her religious beliefs helping her get through it and her success in adulthood. And since she is bothering to have children who will be well educated and loved, chances are the human species will continue to advance and be better off for it.
The human species would be better off simply by educating every single person on the planet. It's the best way of getting the population to move away from religion, and towards science.
By the way the Bible preaches creationism, not evolution. To claim Catholics believe in evolution is rather silly. I would question the talents of any Medical Doctor who does not believe in evolution.
Research clearly demonstrates that atheists are more intelligent, more educated, invent the most, and have done more for the progress of mankind than people who believe in silly religious fairy tales.
FortWayne
2017 May 23, 9:22pm
The human species would be better off simply by educating every single person on the planet. It's the best way of getting the population to move away from religion, and towards science.
By the way the Bible preaches creationism, not evolution.
Religion and science are not opposite Strategist. They compliment each other. Wisdom of human kind is written into the bible. Science doesn't teach that, and it's the most important lesson.
As far as evolution / creationism... evolution doesn't have any proof of how everything was made. Big bang theory doesn't work, because something can't be created out of nothing, it conflicts with science.
Strategist
2017 May 23, 9:22pm
Good. Then as a christian person, what do you do to stop your government (made of christians as well) to stop killing thousands of people abroad?
Let me guess - you put your head in the sand and deny it's happening.
Shouldn't you be asking that to the violent followers of Islam? You know, those who target babies, auction off 9 year olds as sex slaves, and slaughter anyone who disagrees with them?
No, you just don't know anything.
How can I respond to such a strong argument. You win.
Dan8267
2017 May 23, 9:26pm
Religion and science are not opposite Strategist. They compliment each other.
That's a load of crap. Science is based on evidence. Religion is based on faith, the rejection of evidence. The are antithetical world views.
Strategist
2017 May 23, 9:27pm
Wisdom of human kind is written into the bible. Science doesn't teach that, and it's the most important lesson.
That i agree.
As far as evolution / creationism... evolution doesn't have any proof of how everything was made. Big bang theory doesn't work, because something can't be created out of nothing, it conflicts with science.
Science has no idea how everything was made. One day it might. Religion, however, has no idea of how everything was made either, and never will.
Dan8267
2017 May 23, 9:27pm
Just remember, every time ISIS kills somebody, you can thank George W. Bush for its rise to power. This is the consequence of his illegal war. It left a power vacuum that ISIS filled.
Shouldn't you be asking that to the violent followers of Islam?
Here everybody is asking them. I am asking the questions that nobody is asking. That what smart people do. We leave the easy stuff to the mediocre.
By the way the Bible preaches creationism, not evolution. To claim Catholics believe in evolution is rather silly.
Good grief.
"Early contributions to the development of evolutionary theory were made by Catholic scientists such as Jean-Baptiste Lamarck and the Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel. For nearly a century, the papacy offered no authoritative pronouncement on Darwin's theories. In the 1950 encyclical Humani generis, Pope Pius XII confirmed that there is no intrinsic conflict between Christianity and the theory of evolution,"
"Catholic schools in the United States and other countries teach evolution as part of their science curriculum."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Catholic_Church
Again - do you guys really have no clue about this stuff? Is your understanding of Christianity (and Judaism) really this superficial?
Wisdom of human kind is written into the bible.
Some wisdom and a lot of nonsense. I learned more wisdom about human kind from the novels of, say, Honoré de Balzac.
Strategist
2017 May 23, 9:40pm
I am asking the questions that nobody is asking. That what smart people do. We leave the easy stuff to the mediocre.
We already have the answers to the questions you keep asking. That is why nobody else is asking them. If you were really smart, you would have got that by now.
Strategist
2017 May 23, 9:42pm
Just remember, every time ISIS kills somebody, you can thank George W. Bush for its rise to power. This is the consequence of his illegal war. It left a power vacuum that ISIS filled.
Which Obama watched it rise to power, while he played golf.
FortWayne
2017 May 23, 9:43pm
Science has no idea how everything was made. One day it might. Religion, however, has no idea of how everything was made either, and never will.
I think you are putting too much faith in science on this one :)
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