patrick.net

FortWayne says

It's about America and American values.

Secularism is the primary American value. Our history demonstrates that freedom of religion has never been a value of America. There has NEVER been freedom of all religions, just freedom and privilege for a few state-sponsored religions. That is not freedom of religion by a long spot.

Furthermore, why should anyone consider the freedom to be delusional and to act on delusions to be a right? If some nutcase thinks that the Christian god told him he is now the president of the United States, do we let that nutcase into the White House? If someone has a vision from the Archangel Michael telling him that god says no never again pay taxes, do we allow that? If someone's religious beliefs prevents him from at all contributing to a war, including as a consciousness objector, do we allow for that? If someone's religious beliefs involves taking drugs like marijuana, do we allow for that? If someone believes that we should remain naked as god intended, do we allow for that? None of these things are even remotely allowed. We have NEVER had anything remotely resembling freedom of religion in this country. To say otherwise is a lie.

So why should I be in favor of letting your particular religion be privileged above all others?

P N Dr Lo R says

And this widely held but naive attitude is why the West is under repeated attack today.

you are a genius

zzyzzx says

but how do we solve the Islamic problem?

I hate to break this to you, but you cannot bomb bad ideas out of existence. You have to destroy the ideas themselves, not the people holding them.

This is exactly why we need to fight all religion, not just one or two. The idea that Christianity can tame Islam is as delusional as the idea that moderate Muslims can tame radical Muslims. You can only fight irrationality with rationality, not with alternative irrationality. That's like throwing gasoline onto a wood burning fire. Different fuel, same effect.

Dan8267 says

you cannot bomb bad ideas out of existence

It worked with the Japs.

Salman Abedi was born to Refugee Parents. Yet another 2nd Generation fanatic, like Omar Mateen.

Michael Savage is banned from the UK and has been for years

Meanwhile, UK Gov has let thousands of ISIS volunteers back into the country, including Jihadi Wives.

Let that sink in for a minute.

(H/T Cernovich)

Strategist says

Every failed culture also had religion.

Not good with logic ?

Dan8267 says

zzyzzx says

but how do we solve the Islamic problem?

I hate to break this to you, but you cannot bomb bad ideas out of existence. You have to destroy the ideas themselves, not the people holding them.

I agree with Dan about ideas.

IMHO, the best we can do is to use freedom of speech while we still have it. Tell the truth about Islam. Print this and put it up on kiosks and on bulletin boards:

https://patrick.net/Islam

Copy the text of that and post it to every single forum, Twitter feed, and Facebook group. Print it out, format nicely, and physically mail it out to people who need to know it.

It's sympathetic, apparently written by a former Muslim, and entirely factually correct. Distributing it is cheap, it's something everyone can do.

rando says

I'm guessing at least tens of thousands more random innocent Westerners will die before they begin to elect leaders who will tell the truth about Islam and enact rational immigration policies.

More likely we will become like Isreal. Learn to put the probabilities in perspective and not react other than quietly punishing who we can. Remove the motivation for terrorism. If we react by declaring Islam the enemy, then we are reinforcing the motivation of the radicals.

Many European countries have much larger Muslim populations than us, and they need immigrant workers due to low birth rates. So it's an entirely different conversation for them.

Muslims who sincerely value humanity and peace should be deeply ashamed of Islam

The same can be said of Christianity, if you're being honest and applying the same thought process.

Christians who sincerely value humanity and peace should be deeply ashamed of Christianity

However, it's not an honest discussion, because you Christian Apologists never apply the same logic to Christianity.

errc says

Christians who sincerely value humanity and peace should be deeply ashamed of Christianity

No, you're wrong about that. Jesus didn't rob, rape, or murder anyone. Christianity is a fine religion. Maybe some Christians are not really paying attention to what Jesus said and did, and should be ashamed of not acting like Jesus.

Mohammed did rob, rape, and murder lots of people. Muslims are definitely paying attention to what Mohammed said and did, and are acting just like he did. And they should be ashamed of acting like Mohammed.

The religions are very different.

Tell me the last time a Christian in the name of Christianity rode a truck into a street festival, bombed a teenybopper concert, bombed public transportation, or shot dozens of people in a gay club.

Yet they are a majority of the US and European population, far, far, larger than the Muslim Population many times over.

The question every American should be asking themselves is "why do I always give Christians a pass? How did this come to be?"

Christian figureheads have been sexually assualting children in this country by the thousands, for decades, in the name of Christ. The church lied about it and worse still, orchestrated a yuge cover up. It continues unchecked today, with nary a peep from the MIC programmed rubes that thirst to send more people to die a world away, in the desert.

I get that for most people, it's near impossible to see past the first iteration of an implications chain. If they could, they'd worry about cleaning our own house before throwing rocks at the other side of the globe.

How many people have suffered at the hands of anti-science Christians and their imposing their halfwit belief system onto our country? These people chased off life saving Stem Cell technology which has harmed an incalculable number of Americans, and for what? To satisfy the Priest or Reverend of their local congregation, whose only real concern is when can he get his hands on the next little penis of a child. Or more likely, his mouth, before inserting his penis into the childs ass. It's disgusting what they do in churches, in the nane of Christ

How about all the Americans harmed over the years by Christian politicians and Christian voters forcing their heinous belief system into our laws?

If you are suffering and dying and you would like the freedom to end the suffering, Christians are always there to deny you relief from the pain.

Do you want to consume a flower that can ease your pain? Hell no! You must suffer for Christ, or go to prison and forfeit all your possessions.

Do you want the dignity to end the suffering by assisted suicide? Hell no, not in Christian Sharia America!

Thanks a lot, Jesus

Meanwhile...

Sikhs have become Muslims. Note the nearby Sikh temple immediately opened it's doors and provided food and shelter to victims. I heard of no mosque doing so.

Cosmo needs to stick with "5 things that drive him nuts in bed" articles, and not worry their pretty little heads about these things.

errc says

The question every American should be asking themselves is "why do I always give Christians a pass? How did this come to be?"

After you relate all the Christian Terror Attacks in the US or Europe in the past few years. Did Taddeuz Unpronounciblzky drive his lorry into an outdoor Black Metal concert in the name of the Blessed Virgin Mary?

Instead of taking out ISIS and terrorists in their country, UK police are policing Twitter. Sad.

As an American, are you more likely to be harmed by a Christian Drunk Driver, or a Muslim Jihadist?

How about Christian priests fucking little boys in the asses? Priests from any other religions doing the same?

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Good lord, now that is unfair.

The guy is obviously a Sikh from a mile away, and Sikhism came into existence mostly as a reaction to repeated Islamic slaughter of Hindus in India.

Sikhs run charities for everyone, like the free food in every Sikh temple, so it makes sense that a Sikh would be charitable with his taxi.

Muslims run charities for no one but Muslims.

Do all the Christians figure heads rape young boys, in the name of Mohammed?

See, I know why you cannot answer my questions, and instead, rush to defend your Home Team, Rocky. Do you?

There's a pathetic built in response that all the brainwashed Christian apologists reflexively turn to: those are not real Christians! Lmao!!

So the logic here, is that we should condemn all Muslims and the entire religion, based on the actions of the handful of worst actors. However, when assessing the harms of Christianity and Christians, we must toss out every bad example, because those bad actors aren't representative of their religion. They are Fake Christians!

No wonder we're so fucked. Logic and Reason were long ago abandoned, seemingly, IN THE NAME OF CHRIST!

Christianity demands that the True Believers abandon independent thought and reason. It's canon

errc says

As an American, are you more likely to be harmed by a Christian Drunk Driver, or a Muslim Jihadist?

Do Christians deliberately drive cars into non-Christians in order to kill them in the name of Jesus?

No they do not. Has never happened.

Only Muslims do things like that, and they do it explicitly exactly and only because of their religion.

I hope you run into a sincere Muslim practicing his faith.

FP says

How about Christian priests fucking little boys in the asses? Priests from any other religions doing the same?

They're not Real Christians!

Now stop talking about them, everyone knows you must first clean up everyone else's house, before you can worry about getting your own homes affairs in order

errc says

we should condemn all Muslims and the entire religion, based on

We should condemn Islam based on what it teaches.

errc says

They're not Real Christians!

That's true. Jesus fucked no little boys in the ass.

Can you say the same is true about Mohammed?

rando says

errc says

As an American, are you more likely to be harmed by a Christian Drunk Driver, or a Muslim Jihadist?

Do Christians deliberately drive cars into non-Christians in order to kill them in the name of Jesus?

No they do not. Has never happened.

Only Muslims do things like that, and they do it explicitly exactly and only because of their religion.

I hope you run into a sincere Muslim practicing his faith.

I know many Muslims. They cause me far less harm than Christians do here in the States.

I hope you have a love one suffer from a disease, that could have easily been resolved via stem cell advancements. Maybe they are tired of all the suffering, and wish to pass with dignity. Then you can tell them how they must suffer for Jesus, and they cannot check out on their own terms because Jesus

Please hang around Muslims much more.

BTW, I'm all for stem cell research. Just saying that Muslims deliberately kill random innocent people every day somewhere in the world, because that's what Islam teaches them to do.

Given a choice between the common cold (irrational belief in Jesus) and rabies (irrational belief in Mohammed), I'll take the cold any day, and also advocate it to anyone else who has the choice. Especially if the common cold confers some immunity to rabies.

I don't know who Jesus fucked in the ass. But I'll say that Dan has hit on the main issue in this thread. To judge Christianity,
you have to judge the actions of Christians over the last 2000 years. If you believe or argue about what is inherent in the religion, it should be obvious from the actions once the book was written. I've brought this up before as well.
Over and over again, people discuss what is happening now. They don't address historical actions, so they never get at the heart of the matter.

The heart of the matter is the heart of the two religions.

What do they teach?

Christians have done bad things in spite of Christian teaching.

Muslims have done and keep doing bad things because of Islamic teaching.

What most Muslims will say:

Islam would never support the killing of innocent people. Allah of the Holy Qur'an never advocated killings. This is all the work of a few misguided individuals at the fringes of society. The real Islam is sanctified from violence. We denounce all violence. Islam means peace. Islam means tolerance.

What knowledgeable Muslims should say:

That is what most Muslims think, but is it true? Does Islam really preach peace, tolerance and non-violence? The Muslims who perpetrate these crimes think differently. They believe that what they do is Jihad (holy war). They say that killing unbelievers is mandatory for every Muslim. They do not kill because they wish to break the laws of Islam but because they think this is what true Muslims should do.

https://patrick.net/Islam

errc says

As an American, are you more likely to be harmed by a Christian Drunk Driver, or a Muslim Jihadist?

False comparison.

We're comparing Christianity and Islamic fueled terror. Drunk Driving is not an act of religion. Going on Jihad is.

P N Dr Lo R says

It worked with the Japs.

Actually, no, it did not. When Japan surrendered to the United States, our government forced the emperor to admit that he was not a god, something the Japanese people believed. So the example you are using is one in which the United States directly and irrefutably interfered with freedom of religion and explicitly ended a religion that they did not want to exist. Your example proves my point.

errc says

No wonder we're so fucked. Logic and Reason were long ago abandoned, seemingly, IN THE NAME OF CHRIST!

Where'd the steam engine, cotton gin, railroad, etc. come from then?

rando says

That's true. Jesus fucked no little boys in the ass.

They do it because of the unattural way of life their religion imposes on them. Hence it is a direct consequence of Christianity. That was my point in case you did not get it.

rando says

Please hang around Muslims much more.

Nice! Very Christian of you!

If someone points out the harm and suffering caused here at home by Christians, wish death upon them!

Lulululululu!!

rando says

errc says

They're not Real Christians!

That's true.

This is exactly the same No True Scottsman argument that the left makes about Islam. Hell, Batman famously made this argument to Bill Maher and Sam Harris. Do I need to post the video?

I'm sorry, but power based on lies is ripe for abuse, and so the lie is very much relevant to the abuse of power.

rando says

Christians have done bad things in spite of Christian teaching.

There is good and evil in the Bible, including the New Testament, as well as in the Quran. Yes, you could argue that there are more vile passages in the Quran than the New Testament, but you are still cherry picking. The New Testament is pro-slavery and was used as an argument for slavery by the South. And quite frankly, if you can't even get the issue of slavery right, you're a shit source of morality.

There is NO good moral in the New Testament that relies on the supernatural. Even in principle, at best the New Testament is worthless. Historically, it has been counter-productive.

I have a long response to one of Marcus's post. Instead of breaking it down into several pieces, I just opened a new thread for it. It probably deserves its own thread anyway as the subject matter is rich enough. So here's the link.

The useful lie is not useful

I'll gladly defend my position against any attack.

Dan8267 says

I have a long response to one of Marcus's post. Instead of breaking it down into several pieces, I just opened a new thread for it. It probably deserves its own thread anyway as the subject matter is rich enough. So here's the link.

The useful lie is not useful

I'll gladly defend my position against any attack.

You "banned" half the forum, so the only person you need to defend your points are against yourself.

I'm opposed to celibacy for priests. Nor did I say that there is no harm from certain Christian beliefs. Celibacy for priests is not even intrinsic to Christianity. It was tacked on by Rome much later.

I think you're arguing that splattering the bodies of teen girls with explosives is somehow no worse than celibacy for priests.

errc says

If someone points out the harm and suffering caused here at home by Christians, wish death upon them!

No, Islam is the religion of peace. I was just wishing you more peace by wishing you more Islam.