patrick.net

marcus says

On an individual level yes, but as an entire culture ? What successful cultures do you want to cite that didn't have religion ?

curious2 already answered your question partially, but let me add:

1. How do you define a successful culture?
2. There were and are countries where religion did not play a significant role. People there had and have values.
3. The number of atheists and agnostics is under-represented. For example, if you ask my father, he'll tell you that he is a christian. But nothing in his actions reflects reflects this. He goes to churches only as a tourists and he has not read neither the old nor the new testament.
4. If individuals can have values without a religion, why can't whole societies?
5. Considering the variety of religions, what exactly is the common among all them that attributes to the believers values?

I can see that some common set of beliefs/ideology is beneficial (perhaps essential) for uniting a society. But it does not have to be belief in supernatural powers (magic).

Dan8267 says

Like I said, you don't believe in freedom of religion any more than I do. The difference is that I'm honest about it.

I also believe in preventing terrorists from blowing Americans up.

FortWayne says

I also believe in preventing terrorists from blowing Americans up.

What does this even mean?

I believe in pissing after drinking beer.

FP says

But it does not have to be belief in supernatural powers (magic).

I agree, but two things

1) There are modern religions that aren't like that. Even with many old well established protestant religions this is supernatural stuff is mostly believed by the children only.

2) I didn't say it was a requirement, but only that the society and values that most of us want do not come independent from religion. R at least we have no proof that it does. Watch the last minute of the Jordan Peterson video I posted. Or maybe the whole thing if you can spare a few minutes.

epitaph says

Confirmed suicide bombing. 99.9% chance it was Islam at this point.

Now the question is how many more people have to die before European countries collectively do something about their Muslim problem?

I'm guessing at least tens of thousands more random innocent Westerners will die before they begin to elect leaders who will tell the truth about Islam and enact rational immigration policies.

Obligatory:

rando says

epitaph says

Confirmed suicide bombing. 99.9% chance it was Islam at this point.

Now the question is how many more people have to die before European countries collectively do something about their Muslim problem?

I'm guessing at least tens of thousands more random innocent Westerners will die before they begin to elect leaders who will tell the truth about Islam and enact rational immigration policies.

I think Americans are done and it's a part of why Trump got elected. Euros are apparently different and have minimal will to fight.

CBOEtrader says

The most murderous group in recent history are the communists, who were united in their atheism.

Like clockwork, the pro-delusion side repeats this debunked lie. Tom Selleck and Charlie Chaplin are the most dangerous despots ever.

And all these things, from the ancient to today, are intrinsic to religion. The hatred of gays, the torturing of religious opponents, the destruction of knowledge, the suppression of women are all done specifically because the religion demands it. In contrast, Stalin's and Mao's evil was solely due to imperialistic greed, not atheism, and is not supported by atheists or even acknowledged as atheist philosophy.

So the fact that Stalin was an atheist is as relevant as the fact that he had a mustache. But when the pope persuades millions of Africans not to wear condoms or Charles Worley incites men to murder gays and lesbians, religion is at the very center of those actions.

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

Like I said, you don't believe in freedom of religion any more than I do. The difference is that I'm honest about it.

I also believe in preventing terrorists from blowing Americans up.

The belief in preventing terrorists from blowing Americans up directly contradicts the belief in freedom of religion. Their religion, their god, demands blowing up infidels.

I believe that morality is a natural instinct tied to empathy, and we evolved with this ability because groups that had this empathy for their peers survived better than groups that did not have it. Watching a 2 year old with no awareness of religion is enough to teach us that this empathy is innate.

Religions usually codify it, but people and groups vary a lot, so the version that gets codified is different. Also, religions are also means to control people, so the rules in a religion do not reflect the underlying empathy morality one for one. They more or less include a morality that resonates and controls in a way that is convenient to the authors.

So, I don't think that religion is needed in any way for morality. In fact, the way that religions are written and used, they get in the way of what morality should be. On the other hand, some of the arguments against Marcus don't make sense. How atheists behave in a society like the US doesn't prove that a society without religion would be moral. Religion was professed and understood by most of founding fathers. It has been around and permeated the beliefs of legislators and judges who have written and interpreted our laws. So, even though I'm an atheist, I didn't grow up in the absence of religion.

FP says

Strategist says

Islam threatens our lives,

more so than the climate change deniers??

I don't know, but we need to do something for both. Solar power will take care of climate change, but how do we solve the Islamic problem?

Fucking White Male says

I think Americans are done and it's a part of why Trump got elected.

Trump has been singing a different tune since he started this trip. It's anybody's guess where he'll go from here. You are right, though, that the US voted against Islamic immigration and the UK voted that way as well.

marcus says

On an individual level yes, but as an entire culture ? What successful cultures do you want to cite that didn't have religion ?

Every failed culture also had religion.

Dan8267 says

CBOEtrader says

The most murderous group in recent history are the communists, who were united in their atheism.

Atheism does not ask for innocent people to be murdered. Only religion does that.

Strategist says

Are you implying we are pissing off the Muslims? If so, you living in a fairy tale.

Actually we are winning friends by killing innocents in stone age,third world countries,where we have no business,with flying instruments of death. It's great that Republicans stopped Obama in Libya & his other military adventure.

Strategist says

Solar power will take care of climate change,

Climate change is real?

HEY YOU says

Strategist says

Are you implying we are pissing off the Muslims? If so, you living in a fairy tale.

Actually we are winning friends by killing innocents in stone age,third world countries,where we have no business,with flying instruments of death. It's great that Republicans stopped Obama in Libya & his other military adventure.

Do you think they will stop killing us if we completely got out of the Middle East and let ISIS take over the whole Mid East?

HEY YOU says

Strategist says

Solar power will take care of climate change,

Climate change is real?

I don't know to what extent, but i do know pollution is real, getting worse, and MUST be stopped.

YesYNot says

people and groups vary a lot

But human nature is universal. The human nature of the flat earth society of 3,000 years ago is the same as the human nature of today regardless of the scientific and technological advancements.

YesYNot says

So, even though I'm an atheist, I didn't grow up in the absence of religion.

The most influential atheists today belong to the oldest contingent of the Baby Boom generation--Christopher Hitchens ('49), Bill Nye ('55), Bill Maher ('56), Jon Stewart ('62), Richard Dawkins ('41)--were more than likely reared in religious traditions, usually Protestant, Catholic or Jewish. It became a litany, a rite of passage, if I heard this one time, I it heard a million times: Oh, I was raised in a religious family, went to church, but as soon as I left for college I left all that behind, this being of course the late '60s, early '70s during the breakdown of long-standing institutions--family, education, churches as they floundered and sought "alternative lifestyles". Now these people, in their 50's, 60's and older are in the most influential positions of media, education and entertainment and can propagandize from those soap boxes.

If our society had the solidarity like that which existed between 1939 and 1945, this Islam stuff would be brought to a decisive end. The people of that generation were unapologetically religious as Christians and Jews and their faiths expressed in every form of media that existed, including the movies. Can you imagine the reaction today if a president led the nation in prayer as FDR did in 1944 (hubba hubba):

www.youtube.com/embed/VibZVn41pwk

Or Gracie Fields singing The Lord's Prayer to service men and women in 1943 was totally appropriate:

www.youtube.com/embed/Inry2Mx9qRo

Dan8267 says

Their religion, their god, demands blowing up infidels.

Only that of Islam. People don't fear Christianity, they just hate it.

CBOEtrader says

The most murderous group in recent history are the communists

the most murderous group in recent history are the capitalists who started 2 world + many other wars

They hate us for our freedom and our success.

P N Dr Lo R says

Dan8267 says

Their religion, their god, demands blowing up infidels.

Only that of Islam. People don't fear Christianity, they just hate it.

Strategist says

but how do we solve the Islamic problem?

FP says

the most murderous group in recent history are the capitalists who started 2 world

And this widely held but naive attitude is why the West is under repeated attack today.

Idiot left thinks they need to be afraid of the hordes of racist Trump supporters.

Hmmmmm.....

FortWayne says

It's about America and American values.

Secularism is the primary American value. Our history demonstrates that freedom of religion has never been a value of America. There has NEVER been freedom of all religions, just freedom and privilege for a few state-sponsored religions. That is not freedom of religion by a long spot.

Furthermore, why should anyone consider the freedom to be delusional and to act on delusions to be a right? If some nutcase thinks that the Christian god told him he is now the president of the United States, do we let that nutcase into the White House? If someone has a vision from the Archangel Michael telling him that god says no never again pay taxes, do we allow that? If someone's religious beliefs prevents him from at all contributing to a war, including as a consciousness objector, do we allow for that? If someone's religious beliefs involves taking drugs like marijuana, do we allow for that? If someone believes that we should remain naked as god intended, do we allow for that? None of these things are even remotely allowed. We have NEVER had anything remotely resembling freedom of religion in this country. To say otherwise is a lie.

So why should I be in favor of letting your particular religion be privileged above all others?

P N Dr Lo R says

And this widely held but naive attitude is why the West is under repeated attack today.

you are a genius

zzyzzx says

but how do we solve the Islamic problem?

I hate to break this to you, but you cannot bomb bad ideas out of existence. You have to destroy the ideas themselves, not the people holding them.

This is exactly why we need to fight all religion, not just one or two. The idea that Christianity can tame Islam is as delusional as the idea that moderate Muslims can tame radical Muslims. You can only fight irrationality with rationality, not with alternative irrationality. That's like throwing gasoline onto a wood burning fire. Different fuel, same effect.

Dan8267 says

you cannot bomb bad ideas out of existence

It worked with the Japs.

Salman Abedi was born to Refugee Parents. Yet another 2nd Generation fanatic, like Omar Mateen.

Michael Savage is banned from the UK and has been for years

Meanwhile, UK Gov has let thousands of ISIS volunteers back into the country, including Jihadi Wives.

Let that sink in for a minute.

(H/T Cernovich)

Strategist says

Every failed culture also had religion.

Not good with logic ?

Dan8267 says

zzyzzx says

but how do we solve the Islamic problem?

I hate to break this to you, but you cannot bomb bad ideas out of existence. You have to destroy the ideas themselves, not the people holding them.

I agree with Dan about ideas.

IMHO, the best we can do is to use freedom of speech while we still have it. Tell the truth about Islam. Print this and put it up on kiosks and on bulletin boards:

https://patrick.net/Islam

Copy the text of that and post it to every single forum, Twitter feed, and Facebook group. Print it out, format nicely, and physically mail it out to people who need to know it.

It's sympathetic, apparently written by a former Muslim, and entirely factually correct. Distributing it is cheap, it's something everyone can do.

rando says

I'm guessing at least tens of thousands more random innocent Westerners will die before they begin to elect leaders who will tell the truth about Islam and enact rational immigration policies.

More likely we will become like Isreal. Learn to put the probabilities in perspective and not react other than quietly punishing who we can. Remove the motivation for terrorism. If we react by declaring Islam the enemy, then we are reinforcing the motivation of the radicals.

Many European countries have much larger Muslim populations than us, and they need immigrant workers due to low birth rates. So it's an entirely different conversation for them.

Muslims who sincerely value humanity and peace should be deeply ashamed of Islam

The same can be said of Christianity, if you're being honest and applying the same thought process.

Christians who sincerely value humanity and peace should be deeply ashamed of Christianity

However, it's not an honest discussion, because you Christian Apologists never apply the same logic to Christianity.

errc says

Christians who sincerely value humanity and peace should be deeply ashamed of Christianity

No, you're wrong about that. Jesus didn't rob, rape, or murder anyone. Christianity is a fine religion. Maybe some Christians are not really paying attention to what Jesus said and did, and should be ashamed of not acting like Jesus.

Mohammed did rob, rape, and murder lots of people. Muslims are definitely paying attention to what Mohammed said and did, and are acting just like he did. And they should be ashamed of acting like Mohammed.

The religions are very different.