patrick.net

bob2356 says

You don't have to be partisan to say trump's presidency is in chaos. You have to be very partisan to say it isn't.

He is surrounded by fake news chaos everywhere, and has handled it brilliantly. This is the establishment thrashing around like a trapped alligator.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Goran_K says

That's TRUMP's fault?

Yes. The failure to correct the innate problems with Obamacare as drafted and passed was the Republicans fault

Do you deny that Obamacare is Republican legislation, drafted by Republicans, and opposed by nothing but meaningless lip service?

errc says

Do you deny that Obamacare is Republican legislation, drafted by Republicans,

Yes. However it is nothing but the Heritage foundation plan-which was already enacted in MA. It was a repub plan- but the dems made it reality.

lostand confused says

errc says

Do you deny that Obamacare is Republican legislation, drafted by Republicans,

Yes. However it is nothing but the Heritage foundation plan-which was already enacted in MA. It was a repub plan- but the dems made it reality.

Yes, you deny this fact? That you also seem to agree with??

errc says

es, you deny this fact? That you also seem to agree with??

Nope what I am saying is it is a Heritage foundation bill. However it was not the repubs that enacted it-it was Obama and the dems-I don't think they got more than 1 repub congress man and zero senators to sign the bill-so calling it a repub bill is not true. Obama owns it-if he didn't get any repub support he should have pushed for something of his own.

But judging by the TPP and globalisation, free trade, NSA, Patriot act-methinks Obama is a Bush republican on steroids.

errc says

You don't have to be partisan to say trump's presidency is in chaos. You have to be very partisan to say it isn't.

Well said.

The nothingburger is thick, juicy, a slice of American cheese, lettuce, tomato, onion, with secrete sauce (noted ingredient: Russian dressing). ;)

Rew says

errc says

You don't have to be partisan to say trump's presidency is in chaos. You have to be very partisan to say it isn't.

Well said.

The nothingburger is thick, juicy, a slice of American cheese, lettuce, tomato, onion, with secrete sauce (noted ingredient: Russian dressing). ;)

Well Rew, let's not pretend that you rise above the partisanship. Or that you put the citizenry first before your love and unquestioning loyalty to the democrat party.

Anyone demanding a return to Representative Democracy would be looking to fix their own house before exerting so much energy on someone else's. the sheer inefficiency of such actions is UnAmerican in itself.

Being a regular working class American myself, who spends my time living and working amongst Working Class Americans, I understand why we feel misrepresented, and our liberties and freedoms under constant attack. It seems lost on you as well as most other diehards

CBOEtrader says

bob2356 says

You don't have to be partisan to say trump's presidency is in chaos. You have to be very partisan to say it isn't.

He is surrounded by fake news chaos everywhere, and has handled it brilliantly. This is the establishment thrashing around like a trapped alligator.

Perfect, I rest my case.

CBOEtrader says

I have (and do) run multiple businesses. This is total horseshit. ACA was suffocating small businesses as well as middle and upper-middle class american families. It will be repealed. This is a fact which is helping to add optimism to the markets.

Feel fee to document exactly how the ACA is suffocating your small business.

Why will repealing the ACA that is suffocating small business help add optimism to the stock market which by definition big business. Any company big enough to be public has health care already that had small affects from the ACA of 1-2% increase in premiums mostly from adding dependants to 26 and elimination of lifetime caps. Getting that 1-2% of premium costs back isn't going to make much of a difference to any public companies bottom line.

errc says

Well Rew, let's not pretend that you rise above the partisanship. Or that you put the citizenry first before your love and unquestioning loyalty to the democrat party.

Fare criticism on partisanship, but to think I am 'unquestionably loyal' and ONLY partisan by nature is false.

Like all Americans, no one fits perfectly neatly into the D or R boxes.

Edit: I think I believe in the establishment more than you. I have probably benefited from it more than you too. True. But I am also crying out for policy which would benefit the public interest, instead of burning it all to the ground in fit of rage and fear. (I'm not saying that's what you are doing, but that appears to be the anti-establishment mob of today.)

There is nothing more burdensome to business than having to waste time involving itself with its employees health insurance. Pre or post ppACA.

The first goal of any real American, concerned with fixing our country's healthcare crisis, is to decouple health insurance from employment, and end the political privileges and preferential tax treatment. MAGA by any definition

errc says

I understand why we feel misrepresented, and our liberties and freedoms under constant attack. It seems lost on you as well as most other diehards

You think I don't also feel how little my vote matters? You think I haven't also watched that no matter who we put in office, our foreign policy has stayed exactly the same, or gotten worse?

You'd be wrong.

errc says

There is nothing more burdensome to business than having to waste time involving itself with its employees health insurance. Pre or post ppACA.

The first goal of any real American, concerned with fixing our country's healthcare crisis, is to decouple health insurance from employment, and end the political privileges and preferential tax treatment. MAGA by any definition

Totally for it. Would also give workers exceedingly more freedom in mobility and finding work.

Single payer was supported by establishment politics by coming up short by about 50 votes. Unsurprisingly, Bernie championed that cause, and lost.

Rew says

errc says

I understand why we feel misrepresented, and our liberties and freedoms under constant attack. It seems lost on you as well as most other diehards

You think I don't also feel how little my vote matters? You think I haven't also watched that no matter who we put in office, our foreign policy has stayed exactly the same, or gotten worse?

You'd be wrong.

Your words are telling.

The majority of people in this country will never have a chance of the luxury of fretting over foreign policy.

If the people of this country are who you are fighting for, than you must know that the only issues we're afforded the luxury to concern over, are domestic issues. And there's more than enough of those to keep us busy for awhile.

Fix our own house before we go about worrying about anyone else's

errc says

The first goal of any real American, concerned with fixing our country's healthcare crisis, is to decouple health insurance from employment, and end the political privileges and preferential tax treatment. MAGA by any definition

What do you mean? What would be a "fixed" health care system in your opinion?

"Government sucks at everything."

Except building a wall, right?

Goran_K says

errc says

The first goal of any real American, concerned with fixing our country's healthcare crisis, is to decouple health insurance from employment, and end the political privileges and preferential tax treatment. MAGA by any definition

What do you mean? What would be a "fixed" health care system in your opinion?

Not certain, but I'd be open to modeling it after what we had when I was a kid.

What do you not understand about the text you quoted?

joeyjojojunior says

"Government sucks at everything."

Except building a wall, right?

Ours kind of sucks at a lot, but it exceeds at blowing shit up. (spit)

I both love and hate that. #confession

joeyjojojunior says

Except building a wall, right?

Preservation of borders and national defense is one of the FEW things libertarians give to the government. We're not anarchist.

Goran_K says

joeyjojojunior says

Except building a wall, right?

Preservation of borders and national defense is one of the FEW things libertarians give to the government. We're not anarchist.

Lololol lmao holy shit

"American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009: Increased federal spending by over a trillion dollars annually. It remains the MOST expensive legislation in U.S history."

More BS from Goran.

"The approximate cost of the economic stimulus package was estimated to be $787 billion at the time of passage, later revised to $831 billion between 2009 and 2019.[1] The ARRA's rationale was based on the Keynesian economic theory that, during recessions, the government should offset the decrease in private spending with an increase in public spending in order to save jobs and stop further economic deterioration."

Not a trillion, and definitely not annually. It was a one-time cost. Majority of economists agree that the benefits outweighed the costs.

joeyjojojunior says

More BS from Goran.

Not a trillion, and definitely not annually. It was a one-time cost.

Quoting so Tatupu can't go back and edit his response.

Are you seriously trying to claim that the ARRA programs were only funded for ONE year?

You're also only quoting a number from the fiscal cost of ARRA, not the administrative cost (which are nearly double the actual fiscal cost). So tell me, how did the extensions to unemployment, expansions of medicaid, and SNAP (which are still in effect) get funded until now? How much did those extensions/expansions costs?

Please prove me wrong by showing the actual numbers tatupu instead of googling some random cost quote without context. Show me the line item cost including FISCAL and ADMINISTRATIVE cost for ARRA.

www.youtube.com/embed/QDwbzpse5Rs

Listen to Spicer on that.

"there is nothing that would conclude me that anything would have changed with respect to that time period."

And that was when Darth Bannon said: "Jr.'s weakness will not be tolerated! DESTROY HIM! Yesss, good good my alt-rightlings, let the hate flow through you." :)

Goran_K says

Are you seriously trying to claim that the ARRA programs were only funded for ONE year?

I'm glad you are quoting it. You're quoting your own idiocy. I said one time cost. Whether it took 2 years, 5 years, or 10 years, the total cost was ~$800 billion. Not $800 billion annually like you said. You know the difference between one-time and annual, right?

Goran_K says

You're also only quoting a number from the fiscal cost of ARRA, not the administrative cost (which are nearly double the actual fiscal cost). So tell me, how did the extensions to unemployment, expansions of medicaid, and SNAP (which are still in effect) get funded until now? How much did those extensions/expansions costs?

Please prove me wrong by showing the actual numbers tatupu instead of googling some random cost quote without context. Show me the line item cost including FISCAL and ADMINISTRATIVE cost for ARRA.

Of course. Here you go:

Spending (Senate – $552 billion, House – $545 billion)

Aid to low income workers and the unemployed
Senate – $47 billion to provide extended unemployment benefits through December 31, increased by $25 a week, and provide job training; $16.5 billion to increase food stamp benefits by 12 percent through fiscal 2011 and issue a one-time bonus payment; $3 billion in temporary welfare payments.
House – Comparable extension of unemployment insurance; $20 billion to increase food stamp benefits by 14 percent; $2.5 billion in temporary welfare payments; $1 billion for home heating subsidies and $1 billion for community action agencies.

Direct cash payments

Senate – $17 billion to give one-time $300 payments to recipients of Supplemental Security Income and Social Security, and veterans receiving disability and pensions.
House – $4 billion to provide a one-time additional Supplemental Security Income and Social Security Disability Insurance payment to the elderly, of $450 for individuals and $630 for married couples.
Conference – $250 one-time payment to each recipient of Supplemental Security Income, Social Security (Regular & Disability) Insurance, Veterans pension, Railroad Retirement, or State retirement system.[19]

Infrastructure

Senate – $46 billion for transportation projects, including $27 billion for highway and bridge construction and repair and $11.5 billion for mass transit and rail projects; $4.6 billion for the Army Corps of Engineers; $5 billion for public housing improvements; $6.4 billion for clean and drinking water projects.
House – $47 billion for transportation projects, including $27 billion for highway and bridge construction and repair and $12 billion for mass transit, including $7.5 billion to buy transit equipment such as buses; and $31 billion to build and repair federal buildings and other public infrastructures.

Health care

Senate – $21 billion to subsidize the cost of continuing health care insurance for the involuntarily unemployed under the COBRA program; $87 billion to help states with Medicaid; $22 billion to modernize health information technology systems; and $10 billion for health research and construction of National Institutes of Health facilities.
House – $40 billion to subsidize the cost of continuing health care insurance for the involuntarily unemployed under the COBRA program or provide health care through Medicaid; $87 billion to help states with Medicaid; $20 billion to modernize health information technology systems; $4 billion for preventative care; $1.5 billion for community health centers; $420 million to combat avian flu; $335 million for programs that combat AIDS, sexually transmitted diseases and tuberculosis.
Conference – A 65% COBRA subsidy for 9 months will apply to workers laid off between Sep 1, 2008 and Dec 31, 2009. Those already laid off have 60 days to apply for COBRA.

Education
Senate – $55 billion in state fiscal relief to prevent cuts in education aid and provide block grants; $25 billion to school districts to fund special education and the No Child Left Behind K–12 law; $14 billion to boost the maximum Pell Grant by $400 to $5,250; $2 billion for Head Start.
House – Similar aid to states and school districts; $21 billion for school modernization; $16 billion to boost the maximum Pell Grant by $500 to $5,350; $2 billion for Head Start.
Conference – The Conference Report merged most education aid with the State Fiscal Stabilization fund (administered by the Department of Education)and gave power over the funds to each governor under voluminous restrictions. The Governor is "Required" to spend $45 billion of the money on education to restore funding to 2008 levels but the mechanisms to enforce state maintenance of effort at 2005–06 levels are complex and potentially impossible to implement.[21] Hard hit states such as Nevada cannot possibly find enough funds to get to the 2005–06 state funding levels for education.[22] Some states with no current budget cuts for education, such as Arkansas and North Carolina, may get nothing.[23] This will result in a monumental 50 state legal and political fight over how to re-budget to best take advantage of the federal legislation. Many states will further reduce state funds for education to the 2005–06 minimum so these state resources can be used for other state priorities and the net gain for education will be far less than the total federal appropriation.

Energy

Senate – $40 billion for energy efficiency and renewable energy programs, including $2.9 billion to weatherize modest-income homes; $4.6 billion for fossil fuel research and development; $6.4 billion to clean up nuclear weapons production sites; $11 billion toward a so-called smart electricity grid to reduce waste; $8.5 billion to subsidize loans for renewable energy projects; and $2 billion for advanced battery systems.
House – $28.4 billion for energy efficiency and renewable energy programs, including $6.2 billion to weatherize homes; $11 billion to fund a smart electricity grid.
Homeland security
Senate – $4.7 billion for homeland security programs, including $1 billion for airport screening equipment and $800 million for port security.
House – $1.1 billion, including $500 million for airport screening equipment.

Law enforcement

Senate – $3.5 billion in grants to state and local law enforcement to hire officers and purchase equipment.
House – Comparable provision.
Tax Changes ($275 billion)[edit]
House – About $145 billion for $500 per-worker, $1,000 per-couple tax credits in 2009 and 2010. For the last half of 2009, workers could expect to see about $20 a week less withheld from their paychecks starting around June. Millions of Americans who don't make enough money to pay federal income taxes could file returns next year and receive checks. Individuals making more than $75,000 and couples making more than $150,000 would receive reduced amounts.
Senate – The credit would phase out at incomes of $70,000 for individuals and couples making more than $140,000 and phase out more quickly, reducing the cost to $140 billion.
Conference – Tax Credit reduced to $400 per worker and $800 per couple in 2009 and 2010 and phaseout begins at $75,000 for individuals and $150,000 for joint filers. Note retirees with no wages get nothing.[24]

Alternative minimum tax

House – No provision.
Senate – About $70 billion to prevent 24 million taxpayers from paying the alternative minimum tax in 2009. The tax was designed to make sure wealthy taxpayers can't use credits and deductions to avoid paying any taxes or paying at a far lower rate than would otherwise be possible. But it was never indexed to inflation, so critics now contend it taxes people it was not intended to. Congress addresses it each year, usually in the fall.
Conference – Includes a one-year increase in AMT floor to $70,950 for joint filers for 2009.[24]
Expanded child credit
House – $18.3 billion to give greater access to the $1,000 per-child tax credit for low income workers in 2009 and 2010. Under current law, workers must make at least $12,550 to receive any portion of the credit. The change eliminates the floor, meaning more workers who pay no federal income taxes could receive checks.
Senate – Sets a new income threshold of $8,100 to receive any portion of the credit, reducing the cost to $7.5 billion.
Conference – The income floor for refunds was set at $3,000 for 2009 & 2010.[25]

Expanded earned income tax credit

House – $4.7 billion to increase the earned income tax credit – which provides money to low income workers – for families with at least three children.
Senate – Same.

Expanded college credit

House – $13.7 billion to provide a $2,500 expanded tax credit for college tuition and related expenses for 2009 and 2010. The credit is phased out for couples making more than $160,000.
Senate – Reduces the amount that can be refunded to low-income families that pay no income taxes, lowering the cost to $13 billion.

Homebuyer credit

House – $2.6 billion to repeal a requirement that a $7,500 first-time homebuyer tax credit be paid back over time for homes purchased from Jan 1 to July 1, unless the home is sold within three years. The credit is phased out for couples making more than $150,000.
Senate – Doubles the credit to $15,000 for homes purchased for a year after the bill takes effect, increasing the cost to $35.5 billion.
Conference – $8,000 credit for all homes bought between 1/1/2009 and 12/1/2009 and repayment provision repealed for homes purchased in 2009 and held more than three years.[25]

Home energy credit

House – $4.3 billion to provide an expanded credit to homeowners who make their homes more energy-efficient in 2009 and 2010. Homeowners could recoup 30 percent of the cost up to $1,500 of numerous projects, such as installing energy-efficient windows, doors, furnaces and air conditioners.
Senate – Same.
Conference – Same.

Unemployment

House – No similar provision.
Senate – $4.7 billion to exclude from taxation the first $2,400 a person receives in unemployment compensation benefits in 2009.
Conference – Same as Senate

Bonus depreciation

House – $5 billion to extend a provision allowing businesses buying equipment such as computers to speed up its depreciation through 2009.
Senate – Similar.

Money-losing companies

House – $15 billion to allow companies to use current losses to offset profits made in the previous five years, instead of two, making them eligible for tax refunds.
Senate – Allows companies to use more of their losses to offset previous profits, increasing the cost to $19.5 billion.
Conference – Limits the carry-back to small companies, revenue under $5 million[26]

Government contractors

House – Repeal a law that takes effect in 2011, requiring government agencies to withhold three percent of payments to contractors to help ensure they pay their tax bills. Repealing the law would cost $11 billion over 10 years, in part because the government could not earn interest by holding the money throughout the year.
Senate – Delays the law from taking effect until 2012, reducing the cost to $291 million.

Energy production

House – $13 billion to extend tax credits for renewable energy production.
Senate – Same.
Conference – Extension is to 2014.

Repeal bank credit

House – Repeal a Treasury provision that allowed firms that buy money-losing banks to use more of the losses as tax credits to offset the profits of the merged banks for tax purposes. The change would increase taxes on the merged banks by $7 billion over 10 years.
Senate – Same.

House – $36 billion to subsidize locally issued bonds for school construction, teacher training, economic development and infrastructure improvements.
Senate – $22.8 billion to subsidize locally issued bonds for school construction, industrial development and infrastructure improvements.

Auto sales

House – No similar provision.
Senate – $11 billion to make interest payments on most auto loans and sales tax on cars deductible.
Conference – $2 billion for deduction of sales tax, not interest payments phased out for incomes above $250,000.[27]
security deposit=$299.

errc says

The first goal of any real American, concerned with fixing our country's healthcare crisis, is to decouple health insurance from employment, and end the political privileges and preferential tax treatment. MAGA by any definition

@errc Yes, this!

Please run for office. You'll have my vote if you just stick to that position.

As someone trying to start my own business (over and over) I continuously am pushed back to working for our corporate overlords by the cost of health insurance, exactly as they intended. The US Chamber of Commerce is ultimately to blame, IMHO.

You also fojoeyjojojunior says

Whether it took 2 years, 5 years, or 10 years, the total cost was ~$800 billion.

Quoting again so tatupu can't go back and edit.

Here's the actual CBO report on ARRA 10 year cost projection.

From the report:

$2.527 trillion in spending
$744 billion ALONE in DEBT SERVICING

(and it's only gotten worse since the debt has actually gotten BIGGER since the CBO report in 2010).

Add another $2 trillion in administrative cost.

Not to mention the permanent expansions of medicaid, unemployment, and SNAP.

it is without doubt or argument the MOST expensive legislation ever signed by a president.

Are you going to admit that the CBO report proves your ridiculous lie wrong about ARRA costing only $800 billion or do I have to keep embarrassing you tatupu?

Goran_K says

Are you going to admit that the CBO report proves your ridiculous lie wrong about ARRA costing only $800 billion or do I have to keep embarrassing you tatupu?

Well, I can't even read your source so it's hard to know if you posted the truth or more BS.

But, even so, are you going to admit that my estimate was a hell of a LOT closer than yours? You said $1T per year.

You've only embarrassed yourself.

One can argue about whether debt is + or - & in the meantime the interest on debt will eat you up.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Borrowing money to purchase anything & paying even more in interest on the debt
is the ultimate economic genius.

bob2356 says

Feel fee to document exactly how the ACA is suffocating your small business.

Crickets chirping.

rando says

As someone trying to start my own business (over and over) I continuously am pushed back to working for our corporate overlords by the cost of health insurance, exactly as they intended. The US Chamber of Commerce is ultimately to blame, IMHO.

bob2356 says

bob2356 says

Feel fee to document exactly how the ACA is suffocating your small business.

Crickets chirping.

There ya go bob. Keep up the old man trolling if ya like. (Its not a good look on you.)

CBOEtrader says

rando says

As someone trying to start my own business (over and over) I continuously am pushed back to working for our corporate overlords by the cost of health insurance, exactly as they intended. The US Chamber of Commerce is ultimately to blame, IMHO.

bob2356 says

bob2356 says

Feel fee to document exactly how the ACA is suffocating your small business.

Crickets chirping.

There ya go bob. Keep up the old man trolling if ya like. (Its not a good look on you.)

Not sure what you think you read there. Patrick was saying that he wants to start his own business, but he goes back to work for a corporation because he needs health insurance

I'd say Goran lost this one...

"I think you're lying AGAIN and you didn't quote me"

Just like his supposed CBO estimates. All lies.

joeyjojojunior says

Just like his supposed CBO estimates.

Bill will get a new CBO score, but no actual amendments/changes will be part of the scoring, as was currently being reported yesterday. GOP continues attacks on their own CBO official as well.

Take the campaign smarts of the GOP and the policy making of the DEMs: America really would be great again.

Trump is safe.
His family will not turn on him for one single reason:
Anything the libbies turn up on the trumplings will be PRESIDENTIALLY PARDONED.

Everybody caught in this net will be pardoned. Everybody.
In other words, the libbies are like a dog chasing it's tail, when caught, there is no bite coming...

www.youtube.com/embed/zfBG0d5Oj3c

Rew says

Was it Collusion?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/us/politics/collusion-trump-russia-campaign.html

Simple, rational, well done. Go NYT! Go Deep State!

BlueSardine says

Everybody caught in this net will be pardoned. Everybody.

"I'm so certain of this I posted this in three threads to make sure everyone can see how certain I am! I must beat back this paid shill Rew! I alone must defend Trump!"