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However, the US flag represents something else.
Same can be said about Southern statues. Most Southern soldiers did not own slaves and were just defending their States from Yankees. And while US flag may "represent something else", it does represent atrocities, and in some cases such as in California, genocide against American indians.
1. Start censoring one type of speech, and very soon your own speech will be censored. With this type of thinking, we will end un in a government-enforced echo chamber like in Soviet Union.
When you bring guns, clubs, shields, and pepper spray, you didn't take the high road. That's not free speech and expression. Those are agitators ready to fight. The police were right to disband them after they clashed and beat people.
Same can be said about Southern statues. Most Southern soldiers did not own slaves and were just defending their States from Yankees. And while US flag may "represent something else", it does represent atrocities, and in some cases such as in California, genocide against American indians.
America is voting to put the symbols that no longer have a strong contemporary value into museums/other non-prominent public spaces. We aren't running from our past. We are choosing not to embrace and value the darker elements anymore. It's time. It was long long ago. The victors in wars are always the dominant voice, as they should be.
When you bring guns, clubs, shields, and pepper spray, you didn't take the high road. That's not free speech and expression. Those are agitators ready to fight. The police were right to disband them after they clashed and beat people.
That's also true for wearing balaclavas, bearing molotov cocktails, gas masks, bats, metal chains, aerosols, etc. I take it?
Since you were there maybe you could give us info from the ground,... oh wait you weren't, just another left wing with an opinion based on nothing...
You can choose to remain ignorant on the formation of the rally, the leaders who organized it, the groups represented, general timelines of occurrences and major points of violence ... but it doesn't mean others, physically present or not, are choosing to do the same.
That's also true for wearing balaclavas, bearing molotov cocktails, gas masks, bats, metal chains, aerosols, etc. I take it?
Absolutely true. But in the contest of who was there for violence, I think you are going to find the White Supremacists were overwhelmingly those seeking conflict. It's what they were there for.
You can even be disingenuous and isolate the kid in the dodge charger as just a radicalized fringe lone wolf, not representative of the greater movement. Still won't even come close.
Removing a statue is not erasing history. It's just recognizing and celebrating different aspects of our past through public art. It doesn't have to be any more dramatic than replacing artwork in a museum, as long as the monuments are not destroyed.
Thing is, these statues are so old they are becoming historical themselves. I saw an article that some city took a balancing approach and decided to add a plaque to the old confederate monument giving it context (the plaque explains there was a strange romanticizing of the war from 1860-1900 and here we are in 2017 looking back at how f'ed those people must have been for thinking that at the time). The city has also preserved a "whites only" lunchcounter as a living history of the Jim Crow era.
In a way, its not terribly different from a cave painting depicting some atrocity from way back. The Mexicans do not run from the history of the Aztecs and human sacrifice. Instead they embrace it as a look back at how fucked up we (their descendants) were. In 500 years when (presumably) there is no discernable race, I doubt these statutes would be so controversial. If I were to take it down, I wish we would preserve it as a testament to our screwed up past.
Same can be said about Southern statues. Most Southern soldiers did not own slaves and were just defending their States from Yankees.
Not really. Most Southern soldiers were not generals and don't have statues. They are not being celebrated for their role in defending the right to have slaves.drBu says
And while US flag may "represent something else", it does represent atrocities, and in some cases such as in California, genocide against American indians.
Sure, in that the flag represents the country and all of our history, it represents the bad with the good. Statues of Jackson or Custer would represent our fight against the Indians. Those statues would be analogous to statues of Robert E. Lee et al. The US flag represents a whole lot more than that one particular chapter. Throwing the flag out would be throwing the baby out with the bath water. Robert E. Lee statues are the bath water.
Since you were there maybe you could give us info from the ground,... oh wait you weren't, just another left wing with an opinion based on nothing...
You can choose to remain ignorant on the formation of the rally, the leaders who organized it, the groups represented, general timelines of occurrences and major points of violence ... but it doesn't mean others, physically present or not, are choosing to do the same.
One guy did something stupid, everyone else was peacefully protesting removal of statue. Interesting how liberals blame the whole group here.
But when a muslim extremist goes on rampage... no group blame there.... yeah you guys have credibility... my ass.
Thing is, these statues are so old they are becoming historical themselves.
That's why they should not be destroyed.
One guy did something stupid, everyone else was peacefully protesting removal of statue. Interesting how liberals blame the whole group here.
You are so poorly informed in what happened Saturday that the statement above is almost funny.
There has never yet been a crowd armed with baseball bats and not hoping for a fight.
Exactly. I don't condone violence, but the ANTIFA/BLM crowd was begging for an altercation. These people are the real terrorist groups that should be blamed for the violence.
Note that the Mayor and Governor did everything possible to antagonize, and had the police standing back with minimal presence and they weren't keeping the sides away from each other.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/13/us/charlottesville-protests-white-nationalists.html
Remember, violence and chaos is usually sought by the Party not in power.
There has never yet been a crowd armed with baseball bats and not hoping for a fight.
Exactly. I don't condone violence, but the ANTIFA/BLM crowd was begging for an altercation. These people are the real terrorist groups that should be blamed for the violence.
Left does condone AntiFa violence.
America is voting to put the symbols that no longer have a strong contemporary value into museums/other non-prominent public spaces. We aren't running from our past. We are choosing not to embrace and value the darker elements anymore.
If they would not have contemporary value, they would not elicit so much emotions. And US flag is a very dark element to Native Americans. Why is it treated differently from Confederate statues?
The police were right to disband them after they clashed and beat people.
That is absolutely true. When they start violence, they should be arrested, no matter what political ideas they have.
Left does condone AntiFa violence.
That's the problem. The leftist media does not call out ANTIFA or BLM as the terrorist groups they are which IMO only emboldens them to keep acting this way.
The funny part is that these groups actually think they could win a war against the conservative right using violence. The truth is they can't. They would lose badly and it would be quickly apparent.
If they would not have contemporary value, they would not elicit so much emotions. And US flag is a very dark element to Native Americans. Why is it treated differently from Confederate statues?
Emotion doesn't equate to value.
Native Americans are a country within a country and typically do not fly the stars and stripes on their reservations.
Absolutely true. But in the contest of who was there for violence, I think you are going to find the White Supremacists were overwhelmingly those seeking conflict. It's what they were there for.
It was a college campus, so naturally they were going to be lots of kids there. However, there were plenty of armed Hard Lefties with their own shields and metal "flagpoles".
One has been arrested for assaulting a Hill reporter. Apparently she looked too "Whitebread" not to be a White Supremacist.
When they start violence, they should be arrested, no matter what political ideas they have.
Absolutely in agreement here.
The right to protest is given up by using violence or even threats of violence, no matter what side.
If they would not have contemporary value, they would not elicit so much emotions. And US flag is a very dark element to Native Americans. Why is it treated differently from Confederate statues?
The removal of statues, what ISIS does, is what started the whole thing.
http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2017/08/14/charlottesville-baltimore-confederate-monuments/
Would be more productive to demand removal of street signs/statues commemorating Margret Sanger, who literally was a Eugenicist and said outrageous shit about Blacks.
It was a college campus, so naturally they were going to be lots of kids there. However, there were plenty of armed Hard Lefties with their own shields and metal "flagpoles".
One has been arrested for assaulting a Hill reporter. Apparently she looked too "Whitebread" not to be a White Supremacist.
There were some. But the violence was brought to the community itself by the White Supremacists. They planned for it and encouraged all members to come with arms. They came in force and were backed by unidentified militia carrying assault rifles. After Heather Heyer was killed, by vehicular murder, they called her a fat slut on their website.
They can claim this group, or that, wasn't really behind the wheel ... but ...
Are we going to bitch at GoDaddy for not protecting free speech? It has limits. Maybe if they added a picture of Pepe it would make it better?
The removal of statues, what ISIS does
"removal" or "destruction"? Robert E Lee's statue being sold, by the town, to a buyer who would put it in a museum or someplace more relevant for today, isn't exactly what ISIS is doing. Is it?
Not really. Most Southern soldiers were not generals and don't have statues. They are not being celebrated for their role in defending the right to have slaves
Dowling has a statue for him in Houston and memorial plaque in his native Ireland (Tuam) was commissioned in 1998. He was not a general, and as far as I can tell did not own slaves, and was protecting his adopted TX from Yankees. Should his memorials be "relocated"/destroyed?
Furthermore, all of this still begs question as to why Stars and Stripes are treated differently from Confederate monuments. Indians were driven off the land, cheated (as signing treaties with them and then breaking them), starved to death, killed in death marches under Stars and Stripes and somehow this is different from anything confederate. Cheating Indians out of their resources still goes on, just read up on "Navajo coal case" where tribe was screwed over by USGov as late as 2009. Slavery does not exist and we will now fight Confederacy statues, while cheating Indians still goes on under US flag. They are not as important as other minorities, I guess.
Is there a good video link of the "alt-right" protesters too?
We need more people walking around taking video so the public can get lots of unfiltered views and come to their own conclusions. The media is really terrible at being objective lately.
"removal" or "destruction"? Robert E Lee's statue being sold, by the town, to a buyer who would put it in a museum or someplace more relevant for today, isn't exactly what ISIS is doing. Is it?
I said removal.
ISIS actually does sell shit they confiscate, source of their funding, just like the Sunni Militia members who switched their allegience did after March 2003.
Have you looked up the Vice Mayor Of Charlottesville, Wes Bellamy, yet?
Any city that elects such a vile, open racist has a racism problem.
Yet NPR invites him on and interviews him like a normal person, no mention of his racist tweetstorms going back years.
Emotion doesn't equate to value.
Native Americans are a country within a country and typically do not fly the stars and stripes on their reservations.
"Value" in this case is difficult or impossible to define. Also, Indians have to deal with Bureau of Native Affairs that does fly the flag.
Any city that elects such a vile, open racist has a racism problem.
Yet NPR invites him on and interviews him like a normal person, no mention of his racist tweetstorms going back years.
As we all know, saying bad shit about white people is perfectly fine. Saying bad things about others - not so much.
Dowling has a statue for him in Houston and memorial plaque in his native Ireland (Tuam) was commissioned in 1998.
Hey, that's Killelea turf! My male-line ancestors were from right near Tuam, even have some distant relatives in Tuam to this day.
Is his remarks about Women acceptable or not in an elected official? Keeping in mind the Trump tape, which was a private conversation and not made openly like this tweet.
"Value" in this case is difficult or impossible to define. Also, Indians have to deal with Bureau of Native Affairs that does fly the flag.
The point is, the local community there has the absolute right to remove or do with the statue as they see fight, provided the statue isn't protected by greater federal oversight, or is done within the balance there.
Yes, we all have to deal with symbols we do not like. Doesn't mean we cannot choose to remove one that no longer speaks to the community we are in.
Interesting how liberals blame the whole group here.
But when a muslim extremist goes on rampage... no group blame there.... yeah you guys have credibility... my ass.
True.
Is there a good video link of the "alt-right" protesters too?
We need more people walking around taking video so the public can get lots of unfiltered views and come to their own conclusions. The media is really terrible at being objective lately.
Most people have better things to do with their August weekends, like go to the beach and BBQ with their friends n family
Will Rew disavow the racist Vice Mayor of Charlottesville, and identify the population that voted him in has a problem with anti-white racism?
Interesting how liberals blame the whole group here.
But when a muslim extremist goes on rampage... no group blame there.... yeah you guys have credibility... my ass.True.
Not all Klan Members are like that. In fact, most Klan members never kill anybody. The Klan is an ideology of peace, this was just a misguided individual who didn't follow the true Klan Kode.
To think all Klan members are murderous is just plain ignorance. Get Educated!
I want Rew to disavow the Vice Mayor of Charlottesville. Is he a racist?
Also, is his remarks about Women acceptable or not in an elected official? Keeping in mind the Trump tape, which was a private conversation and not made openly like this tweet.
I'm not sure if he is "racist" but he sure uses some piss poor language and judgment. Lots of that I find disgusting, yes. Not someone I would want as a mayor. He should go. No votes from me. Surprising he is there ... but then again ... Trump ...
The Trump tape being private doesn't absolve it, but I think it is telling you think that it somehow lightens what was said.
Will Rew disavow the racist Vice Mayor of Charlottesville
Already done. Gotta give a brotha time to type.
The point is, the local community there has the absolute right to remove or do with the statue as they see fight, provided the statue isn't protected by greater federal oversight, or is done within the balance there.
Yes, we all have to deal with symbols we do not like. Doesn't mean we cannot choose to remove one that no longer speaks to the community we are in.
If the community is strongly against a monument, it would be OK to remove it to some other place. But as it is done now, it is virtue-signaling idiotic politicians who decide. If it would be done by a popular vote, then perhaps I could justify the removal. Dallas or Houston or whatever should vote if they should keep or remove the statue/rename the street etc.
I'm not sure if he is "racist" but he sure uses some piss poor language and judgment. Lots of that I find disgusting, yes. Not someone I would want as a mayor. He should go. No votes from me. Surprising he is there ... but then again ... Trump ...
This is just a sampling. He bragged about little White men having to look up to him, I can't get it to post.
Do you think a population that votes for such a man has a problem with Racism?
Also, how did this population vote for him, but likely against Trump, many on ground of his "anti-woman" remarks?
The Trump tape being private doesn't absolve it, but I think it is telling you think that it somehow lightens what was said.
One man is boldly pronouncing white women devils and discussing that eating the pussy of a sleeping girl isn't rape, openly on twitter.
The other is trying to bond with a young kid (in this case, snotty snotrag tryhard Bush) in a private conversation on a bus.
Do you think a population that votes for such a man has a problem with Racism?
If it was known, a cornerstone of the campaign, or part of the motivations of the votes, yes.
The other is trying to bond with a young kid (in this case, snotty snotrag tryhard Bush)
Can you wash Trump's other hateful rhetoric against women so easily too?
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4783914/White-nationalists-hold-torch-lit-march-UVA-campus.html
Either this driver is so stupid that he does not understand that he has immeasurably increased sympathy for anti-fa assholes, or it was a false flag operation simply intended to stir shit up. Ugh.