patrick.net

The statues whitewash history. If you want to preserve history, show statues of slaves being whipped and chunks of their flesh being removed. Now that would teach people history.

Dan8267 says

The statues whitewash history. If you want to preserve history, show statues of slaves being whipped and chunks of their flesh being removed. Now that would teach people history.

Why not both? Also, a memorial to the slaughtered POWs that Nathan Bedford Forrest executed in Cold Blood.

Why not take the chance to really evaluate people? For example, Confederate General Longstreet later raised, trained, and armed a Black Militia during Reconstruction.

owning slaves back in the days was legal and so these monkeys need to suck it up.

Irish were slaves too but i don't see them being angry about this.

these monkeys will always find something to complain because they low intelligence prevents them from adapting to a civilized first world country.

they are still used to the hunting & gathering lifestyle in the sub-Saharan.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Why not both?

Statues should not be used for propaganda. Unfortunately, most are.

Ideally, we would not have statues of individuals, but only statues of ideas. However, if we do have statues of individuals, there should be a standard. And that standard should be applied equally to all. There are plenty of people who have done great evil and also some good. Such persons do not warrant adoration.

In any case, the entire purpose of Confederate statues is to persuade people to romanticize the American South despite the horrors it engaged in. That's not teaching history. That's rewriting history. The behavior of the American South was even worse than the behavior of Nazi Germany. The absolute terror required to prevent slave revolts for 400 years is virtually unimaginable. The only proper behavior for the south is to apologize, stop glorifying its vile history, and to treat all Americans equally from now on. That is the only path to forgiveness, and the only way to regain respect.

Germany has done exactly this, and so no one looks at Germany with disgust anymore. The modern German is as removed from Nazism as you or I are. The American South could have easily ended its shame back in the 19th century simply by giving up its bigotry. Instead if spent the next 100 years doing everything it could to make blacks second class citizens, and in doing so created the inter-generational poverty and crime culture that plagues us today. The south still votes as a block and continues to be on the wrong side of history in everything from marriage equality to climate change.

Quite frankly, taking down those statues would reduce the south's shame, and perhaps bring it into the 21st century. Those statues just act like chains keeping the south in the 19th century, and making the rest of the world perceive it as a backwaters land populated by ignorant fools. And that's not good for business anymore than it's good for respectability. The south would be far better off letting go of the Civil War and joining the rest of the country in the 21st century.

Quite frankly the rest of us are sick of all the identity politics that these statues, the left, and the right bring. Time to bury the dead and let them stay dead. There was nothing good about the Civil War, and quite frankly it's embarrassing that America is the only nation that had to fight a civil war to end slavery. Let's stop embarrassing ourselves.

Dan8267 says

The behavior of the American South was even worse than the behavior of Nazi Germany.

Such fucking bullshit.

Dude you need to move out to Silicone Valley if you hate southerners so much. Seriously.

marcus says

Such fucking bullshit.

400 years of enslaving, torturing, raping, and murdering men, women, and children is indeed even a greater evil than the Holocaust, as horrific as that was.

Sorry, but you are simply not acknowledging just how cruel and disgusting slavery really was. It wasn't minor coercion into unpaid labor. It was whipping people with cattails that literally defleshed them. It was raping girls from 10 to 20. It was killing the babies of slaves. It was executing men to serve as an example. It was keeping people in utter terror generation after generation so that they dare not revolt. You really need to comprehend just how much cruelty and pain is required to maintain a slave-based society for 400 years.

I stand by my statement.

marcus says

Dude you need to move out to Silicone Valley if you hate southerners so much.

I don't hate modern southerners. I hate the whitewashing of history. It holds our society back.

Dan8267 says

There was nothing good about the Civil War, and quite frankly it's embarrassing that America is the only nation that had to fight a civil war to end slavery.

It's like everything, follow the money. The South's economy was totally dependent on slavery at the time so it's not that surprising that they fought against ending it immediately. Not defending it at all - just saying it's understandable given capitalism. Hell, if not for the technology that the industrial revolution brought us, we would all be more or less slaves - that is if we even existed. By the way, many black Americans exist today because of their ancestors lives as slaves. Not that that makes it okay. But it is more complicated than you want to make it.

Do you think that the chinese slave labor has it on average better than the AMerican slaves had it ? I've got news for you they don't. And I wonder how many products assembled by slave labor you boycott?

marcus says

It's like everything, follow the money.

What the hell does any of that have to do with the question of whether or not the statues should be removed?

My position is clear. Glorifying the Confederacy and slavers is not a service to history. The purpose of history is to acknowledge the things that went terribly wrong in the past so that you don't repeat them. These statues whitewash that past and attempt to get us to forget the horrors. This is a great disservice to history and to future generations. The only good that can come from the dark parts of America's past is a consciousness that prevents us from repeating those dark times.

Dan8267 says

I hate the whitewashing of history.

I don't see those statues as whitewashing history. If anything they remind us of the history. Everyone knows about slavery, that we had it, and nobody now thinks slavery is okay.

Dan8267 says

These statues whitewash that past and attempt to get us to forget the horrors.

How do they ? By reminding southerners of the war they lost ? That would only be true if they held on to the idea that the reason for the war was a noble or that they shouldn't have lost or if they somehow thought slavery was just and good.

Hundreds of thousands died in that war. By far the worst war losses in our history. Most confederates were doing what they thought was their duty not because of what they thought about slavery.

Consider the vietnam war. If that war was wrong, does it negate the heroism of some of the American soldiers that fought in it ?

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Statues: A Loser Political Proposition

I'm glad to see those poll results. Interesting that even more than half of African Americans say leave them be.

The reason I'm glad, is maybe democracy will prevail and there won't be too many more removals, that is locals will vote and they will be left alone. If it goes the other way, it empowers the alt right. Many otherwise relatively moderate or even left of center white southerners might climb on board the Trump wagon, if confederate statues started to be indiscriminately pulled down by SJWs.

Of course that might be what Bannon or whomever the instigators are, were going for.

marcus says

if confederate statues started to be indiscriminately pulled down by SJWs.

Already being defaced.

The Piedmont Park statue spray-painted by protesters Sunday was dedicated in 1911 as a statue to promote peace between north and south after the Civil War.

The Peace Monument was erected by the Old Guard of the Gate City Guard in 1911, according to research by the AJC for an article about the history of the park.

The sculpture by Allen G. Newman, who was born in New York, depicts an angel staying the hand of a Confederate soldier as he holds a rifle. In her other hand, the angel holds an olive branch.

marcus says

I don't see those statues as whitewashing history. If anything they remind us of the history.

Apply that to a statue of Hitler in a glorified pose.

marcus says

Consider the vietnam war. If that war was wrong, does it negate the heroism of some of the American soldiers that fought in it ?

The Vietnam Memorial does not glorify the war. It expresses sorrow for the wasting of lives. It is a sad memorial for a war that should not have happened. If you want statues that express the shame and regret of slavery, that would be a perfect tribute to the Confederacy.

Also bravery in defending evil is not virtue. Suicide bombers are very brave. ISIS soldiers are brave. It takes courage to fly a plane into a building knowing you will die and every bit of your instinct for self-preservation is fighting you. Bravery in the service of evil is not heroic.

Dan8267 says

It was whipping people with cattails that literally defleshed them. It was raping girls from 10 to 20. It was killing the babies of slaves. It was executing men to serve as an example.

And it was also often treating slaves well so as to get the best work out of them. Many owners saw themselves as good Christians that loved their slaves (even while seeing them as inferior beings thus justifying their status), and thought they deserved to treated relatively well in return for their work, also understanding that it was in their best long term interest to have good rapport with their workers. I would think it would be smart to run the kind of plantation that slaves would want to be working and living at. That would be how you get slaves that won't think about revolting. The cruelty method probably was employed sometimes too - but probably not at the most profitable plantations.

Do you reckon slaves were allowed (or encouraged) to be Christian ? Or did that and gospel music etc only happen after slavery was over?

marcus says

Many owners saw themselves as good Christians that loved their slaves

Clearly not enough to free them.

Read this regarding your "good Christians".

Then watch this slideshow.
http://blackbeat.topix.com/slideshow/16995

Now tell me that the slaves didn't have it that bad.

Dan8267 says

Bravery in the service of evil is not heroic.

Of course not. But American soldiers in vietnam did not believe they were serving evil. They were serving country. Much like the hundreds of thousands of confederate soldiers that died in the civil war.

You're not going to convince me or anyone that remembering confederate soldiers is glorifying slavery. For the typical soldier in a war, it's not about whatever reasons the plutocrats are fighting the war for. It's about honor, and their buddies and about following some (I will agree) unfortunate human instincts. In a way, I'm surprised that you are critical of it because of slavery. I think a better argument could be made that it glorifies that type of honor and war itself. That is an argument I could come closer to understanding, and it is the war itself that disgusts me. But it did happen. That's history. The war itself is something to be remembered.

It's not that slavery doesn't disgust me too. But it had gone on for centuries as you say and would have ended in one of the next couple decades anyway. Probably in a better way. Why did that war even need to happen ? I have my suspicions. I'm thinking that greed of people outside the south was involved.

marcus says

I don't see those statues as whitewashing history. If anything they remind us of the history. Everyone knows about slavery, that we had it, and nobody now thinks slavery is okay.

Please don't try to use logic and reason with dan...It just confuses him.

marcus says

Dan8267 says

Bravery in the service of evil is not heroic.

Of course not. But American soldiers in vietnam did not believe they were serving evil.

I was referring to the Confederate soldiers, not Vietnam.

marcus says

You're not going to convince me or anyone that remembering confederate soldiers is glorifying slavery.

No one said they should be forgotten. The removal of statues glorifying the Confederacy doe not mean we forget the Civil War happened or that the traitorous south resulted in the deaths of countless Americans. That is a straw man argument.

marcus says

It's about honor

There is no honor in fighting for evil, even if you consider the evil good. Every statement you have made could apply just as well to an ISIS fighter today. Why should I respect such fighters?

The bottom line is that the attempt to glorify the Confederacy is failing and the statues will be removed. The longer it takes and the more resistance, the worse today's American south will look, and the more painful it will be.

Dan8267 says

Now tell me that the slaves didn't have it that bad.

I didn't say that. But if you think that in 1830 southern plantations that constant torture and rape was even usually the case, I think you're wrong. But it would be an interesting thing to research. And even if it happened sometimes I'll completely agree it's an atrocity. It's just that you say American slavery was worse than Nazi atrocities. Really?

Dan8267 says

glorifying the Confederacy

What does that even mean ? Why does a statue of a famous confederate soldier "glorify the confederacy ?" I don't see it that way. That's not why I would leave the statues alone. I don't want to glorify the confederacy. I think I know my own beliefs on this.

Dan8267 says

The longer it takes and the more resistance, the worse today's American south will look, and the more painful it will be

Fortunately, most Americans disagree. Even about half of African Americans. I believe that if left alone, say a century from now when racial tensions are much much lower, probably 90% will be in favor of leaving the statues be. It's a ridiculous stretch to see honoring confederate soldiers as glorifying them or worse glorifying slavery. I find that absurd.

Dan8267 says

Glorifying the Confederacy

The problem with this country today is that people demand that their interpretation be the only interpretation. It is called narrow mindedness.

As for the OP. The statue issue a strategic loser on the national scale. Bannon's right about that. On the local scale, they would probably still be removed from most cities, because cities are much more liberal than rural areas. Look at how Kaine is phrasing the issue. He knows how to push for some progress while staying in office in a state like VA, which has people on both sides of this issue.

The bit about 'erasing history' is a lie, and that should be obvious. I've never seen monuments to Newton, Galileo, Hitler, Tesla, Columbus, Stalin, Mao, Pocohontas, etc. But I know who those people are. You don't learn history from strolling through the park. You find out who people literally put up on a pedestal. We don't need to put up 1500 monuments to slavery in city squares around the country, and we should have never put up 1500 monuments to the confederacy. Even Lee himself didn't want monuments erected, precisely because they would be divisive.

As Dan said, Germany didn't put up a bunch of Nazi statues to honor those who died fighting in WWII, and you sure as shit don't find statues of Hitler or his generals put up on pedestals around town.

marcus says

It's just that you say American slavery was worse than Nazi atrocities. Really?

This is not a useful comparison. The Holocaust was quick, but 6 million people were starved and worked to death and killed. Around the world, there were 12.5 million slaves shipped from Africa. About 2 million died at sea. Only 1/2 million made it to the US directly or indirectly. The rest went to the Caribbean and South America. But, many were born into slavery in the US.

marcus says

But if you think that in 1830 southern plantations that constant torture and rape was even usually the case

As far as how slaves were treated, they were treated better than the Jews and gays in the holocaust, who where going to be killed anyway, and whose bodies were literally used for calories and labor until they withered and failed. However, saying you didn't torture a slave constantly doesn't make it remotely OK. Slavery was an evil. Those who fought back were publicly tortured and/or killed to terrorize the rest. It was not uniquely American, but it was a huge evil in our past. People refused to recognize that for various reasons historically. One reason was probably psychological. It's hard to see yourself and your parents as evil. Some people to this day have problems recognizing some of this, and I think it is because they take things too personally.

You can argue that a tribal soldier just fighting with his neighbors wasn't evil, but you cannot argue at this point that the war was not fought to preserve an evil. The fight over slavery started before our country was born and lasted nearly a century. After slavery ended, which took a huge battle that killed 600K people, it was another century before blacks were treated remotely equally. Think about that. Slavery hurt everybody involved, except the wealthy plantation owners and their descendants. It especially was terrible for the direct victims and their descendants.

To this day, half of the whites say that blacks are poor because they are dumber, lazier, more violent, etc. No blame seems to be attributed to the fact that their parents and grandparents were given shit educations, had terrible job prospects, were unfairly jailed, could not own businesses that served the majority of Americans, and couldn't even drink from the same fountain or sit next to a white on a bus. People pass down money and also give all sorts of opportunities to their kids. It's going to take quite a few generations for the fingerprints of subjugation to disappear. The reason that people don't want to admit that blacks on average do not have equal opportunities today is the same psychological reason that they participated in or later whitewashed slavery. They just don't want to face a reality that makes them or their lineage seem evil. If it were not such an overused and insulting word, I'd call those people snowflakes.

YesYNot says

I've never seen monuments to Newton, Galileo, Hitler, Tesla, Columbus, Stalin, Mao, Pocohontas,

Well actually, I posted on the other thread. Lefties are now demanding the removal of Columbus statues

http://nbc4i.com/2017/08/18/group-calls-for-removal-of-christopher-columbus-statue-downtown/

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/10/13/pepperdine-students-call-removal-columbus-statue-say-celebration-genocide/

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2017/08/19/demonstration-white-supremacy-christopher-columbus/583189001/

I stand corrected. I think I have probably seen the Pepperdine Columbus statue. It is somewhat ironically located on the Pacific coast, and I had no idea what it was commemorating as I drove by.

The left should learn that you can accept Columbus's accomplishments as an explorer and sailor for what they were. There are more productive ways to draw attention to the plight and pride of the American Indians. Blaming a guy who was brave enough to sail west at the time and who thought he was finding a trade route to India for every calamity that befell American Indians is stupid. I do hope those calls for action are rare and random convulsions that will die off.

The right should learn what the fuck to be proud of and why the Confederate war was fought. Anybody who lectures you about history while making excuses for the Confederacy should be laughed at. Unfortunately, the push to whitewash it is 150 yrs old and still going strong.

marcus says

Dan8267 says

There was nothing good about the Civil War, and quite frankly it's embarrassing that America is the only nation that had to fight a civil war to end slavery.

It's like everything, follow the money. The South's economy was totally dependent on slavery at the time so it's not that surprising that they fought against ending it immediately. Not defending it at all - just saying it's understandable given capitalism. Hell, if not for the technology that the industrial revolution brought us, we would all be more or less slaves - that is if we even existed. By the way, many black Americans exist today because of their ancestors lives as slaves. Not that that makes it okay. But it is more complicated than you want to make i

I see a great parallel in modern times. The globalists are using slaves in other countries to make their goods cheaply and they have great economic incentive to continue doing so. In fact, our leaders enjoy slavery so much that they brought a legal form of it to America whereby foreign code monkeys can be virtually enslaved for a time to provide cheaper labor to their owners.

When this status was threatened, the globalists have gone to war, hefting the might of their international political alliances and media corporations against the President who is contrary to their slaving interests.

All that's missing is the shooting!

I find it mildly amusing that McGee is devoting an entire thread to use poll results as evidence. After how many previous posts about how polls are useless?

Once again, McGee's view is apparent--evidence is worthless is it disagrees with him, but it's immensely valuable when it agrees with him.

Dan why don't you apologize for owning Slaves in the past already so the rest of us can move on already?

marcus says

It's just that you say American slavery was worse than Nazi atrocities. Really?

Have you even read the sources I referenced? Go back and do that.

Blurtman says

Dan8267 says

Glorifying the Confederacy

The problem with this country today is that people demand that their interpretation be the only interpretation. It is called narrow mindedness.

Again, apply the exact same standard you are proposing to ISIS or Al Qaeda. Were you even OK with a Mosque being built near the site of the Twin Towers? Would you be OK with a statue of Osama bin Laden? Hypocrisy is a sign of being wrong.

Tenpoundbass says

Dan why don't you apologize for owning Slaves in the past already so the rest of us can move on already?

Your comment clearly indicates your support of slavery and white nationalism. This is hardly a surprise.

As for me, neither I nor my ancestors owned any slaves. However, if they had, I would not be glorifying them.

YesYNot says

The bit about 'erasing history' is a lie, and that should be obvious. I've never seen monuments to Newton, Galileo, Hitler, Tesla, Columbus, Stalin, Mao, Pocohontas, etc. But I know who those people are. You don't learn history from strolling through the park. You find out who people literally put up on a pedestal.

Exactly. The sole purpose of the statues is to whitewash history.

joeyjojojunior says

mildly amusing that McGee is devoting an entire thread to use poll results as evidence

Did someone say polls?

Dan8267 says

There is no honor in fighting for evil, even if you consider the evil good. Every statement you have made could apply just as well to an ISIS fighter today. Why should I respect such fighters?

Now apply that line of reasoning to anyone that's been attacked by the US military and switch the word ISIS to AMERICAN. There are 2 sides to every story.

YesYNot says

Embarrassed? To be embarrassed, doesn't there need to be another party that is not invested in the act to witness the embarrassment? It's hard for me to put in words so maybe I need a wordsmith to help out. What I'm trying to say is if Trump is our president, the president of all US citizens, the people that feel embarrased feel so because a German or Frenchman thinks that trump is an ass? Do you really think that most people give a flying fuck about what a german or a frog think?
If you have a crazy brother in your house and he does something really stupid and the only people in the house are family, do you still feel embarrassed? Or do you only feel embarrassed when there is an outsider witnessing the act?

Nobody is even considering how this damages the ecology of pigeons.

komputodo says

Now apply that line of reasoning to anyone that's been attacked by the US military and switch the word ISIS to AMERICAN. There are 2 sides to every story.

Please make the case that slavery is good. I have not heard that side of the story. Also feel free to make the pro-Holocaust argument.

Until you can do that, I'll accept that sometimes one side is just plain evil.

Ban statues!

Since we will soon be taking down any statue that offends anybody, may as well get that out of the way.

joeyjojojunior says

I find it mildly amusing that McGee is devoting an entire thread to use poll results as evidence. After how many previous posts about how polls are useless?

Once again, McGee's view is apparent--evidence is worthless is it disagrees with him, but it's immensely valuable when it agrees with him.

Yes, remember that time when all the polls said Trump was gonna get crushed, and all the 538 number crunchers at world reknowed NYT and elsewhere said so, and Hillary won the Election?

Boy, did they learn me.

The Shy Tory effect is well known. However, this poll is not asking who you are voting for, and I've never said that ALL polls on any subject are wrong.

The point of this thread is:

Politically, the statue removal issue is a loser for Democrats. People either don't give a shit or think they should remain. Including a near plurality of Blacks and Democrats.