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Why aren't black athletes protesting inner city murder rates?


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2017 Sep 24, 5:55am   18,580 views  103 comments

by Blurtman   ➕follow (2)   💰tip   ignore  

While Chicago’s population is about one third black, in 2016, 80 percent of shooting victims were black, as were a large majority of shooting offenders.

Simply stated, black on black crime is the driver for disproportionate police engagement in the community, the driver for disproportionate friction with the community, and the driver for disproportionate black arrest and incarceration rates.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/07/14/illinois-politicians-wake-up-to-chicagos-murder-plague.html
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79   Strategist   2017 Sep 26, 11:15pm  

Dan8267 says
Strategist says
Dan8267 says
Strategist says
Shooting criminals is the best way of protecting the innocent.


Does that include criminal cops?

Yes.


If you are willing to shoot criminal cops dead without trial, then what the hell objection do you have to me wanting them to stand before a jury in an honest court?


I don't. I disagree with your notion that most cops are bad cops.
80   FuckTheMainstreamMedia   2017 Sep 26, 11:22pm  

Strategist says
Dan8267 says
Strategist says
Dan8267 says
Strategist says
Shooting criminals is the best way of protecting the innocent.


Does that include criminal cops?

Yes.


If you are willing to shoot criminal cops dead without trial, then what the hell objection do you have to me wanting them to stand before a jury in an honest court?


I don't. I disagree with your notion that most cops are bad cops.


You are arguing with a guy that believes police brutality and abuse is worse than it was 20 years ago despite massively increased federal, judicial, and civilian oversight compared to 20 years ago including the past 8 under a federal justice department headed by a black man appointed by a black president.

Btw, not sure why a reporter out there can't ask for Colin Kaeperpicks response to that statement.
81   Dan8267   2017 Sep 27, 8:25am  

Strategist says
I don't. I disagree with your notion that most cops are bad cops.


That is because you ignore the crime of conspiracy. Just about all cops obstruct justice and harbor the criminal cops. It's called the blue wall of silence. It's no different than obstructing the CIA's efforts to thwart a terrorist attack.

The fact is that if even 10% of cops were honest, the other 90% would not get away with their crimes. Even a tiny minority of honest cops would make it impossible for the systemic corruption we see in American police departments.

And again, America is the only western nation that has this problem. Our cops are more like North Korean cops than like European cops.

Fucking White Male says
You are arguing with a guy that believes police brutality and abuse is worse than it was 20 years ago despite massively increased federal, judicial, and civilian oversight compared to 20 years ago including the past 8 under a federal justice department headed by a black man appointed by a black president.


Are you seriously trying to make the dumb argument that racist is over because a black president was elected? That would be a damn stupid argument especially considering the fact that the black president in question drastically increased the war on drugs and domestic spying.

As for me, I base my beliefs on evidence, of which I have cited plenty. In contrast you have provide no evidence to support your assertions. So which of us is being irrational?
82   Strategist   2017 Sep 27, 9:12am  

Dan8267 says
Strategist says
I don't. I disagree with your notion that most cops are bad cops.


That is because you ignore the crime of conspiracy. Just about all cops obstruct justice and harbor the criminal cops. It's called the blue wall of silence. It's no different than obstructing the CIA's efforts to thwart a terrorist attack.

The fact is that if even 10% of cops were honest, the other 90% would not get away with their crimes. Even a tiny minority of honest cops would make it impossible for the systemic corruption we see in American police departments.

And again, America is the only western nation that has this problem. Our cops are more like North Korean cops than like European cops.

Just about all cops obstruct justice? Prove it. Don't give me your bizarre logic, just prove it with facts.


Dan8267 says

As for me, I base my beliefs on evidence, of which I have cited plenty. In contrast you have provide no evidence to support your assertions. So which of us is being irrational?

You base your beliefs on myths and bias. That is not evidence.
83   Dan8267   2017 Sep 27, 12:59pm  

Strategist says
Just about all cops obstruct justice? Prove it.


What would constitute satisfactory proof to you?

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

As for me, I base my beliefs on evidence, of which I have cited plenty. In contrast you have provide no evidence to support your assertions. So which of us is being irrational?

You base your beliefs on myths and bias. That is not evidence.


Wrong again. I cited specific victims and court cases as well as statistics in many threads.
84   Dan8267   2017 Sep 27, 1:00pm  

me123 says
Cherry picking singular events aren't valid for your blanket statements.


Cite one statement I made that was false, piggy. You can't do that.
85   Strategist   2017 Sep 27, 3:35pm  

Dan8267 says
Strategist says
Just about all cops obstruct justice? Prove it.


What would constitute satisfactory proof to you?

That's your problem. Try research and surveys that are generally acceptable.
By the way lets assume for a second your claims are true and almost all cops are bad cops. What do we do then?
86   Blurtman   2017 Sep 27, 3:53pm  

Dan8267 says
Police brutality has become an incredibly polarising and contentious issue in American life.


Kapper was the first to describe why he was taking a knee.

Stevie Wonder on taking a knee: "Both knees in prayer for our planet, our future, our leaders of the world and our globe. Amen ..."

Bruce Maxwell, Oakland A's: " I’m kneeling for the people who don’t have a voice.

“This goes beyond the black and Hispanic communities because right now we have a racial divide that’s being practiced from the highest power we have in this country saying it’s basically OK to treat people differently."

So there is obviously no standardization of the rationale for taking the knee, with explanations ranging from police brutality, to the nebulous offering of a "racial divide" as a rationale, to something wrong with our planet. What is lacking is an organized approach that could clearly state the problem in detail, back it up with statistics, and suggest metrics to determine if there is an improvement or not. And so this is just emoting that will do nothing except generate controversy. How can you plan to improve that which is not clearly defined?
87   Dan8267   2017 Sep 27, 6:22pm  

Strategist says
Dan8267 says
Strategist says
Just about all cops obstruct justice? Prove it.


What would constitute satisfactory proof to you?

That's your problem. Try research and surveys that are generally acceptable.


Try answering the question. What exactly would constitute satisfactory proof to you?

The blue wall of silence is accepted as indisputable fact by the general public and by all experts who study criminology and law enforcement. It's also as obviously true as almost all teenage boys think about sex.
88   Strategist   2017 Sep 27, 6:39pm  

Dan8267 says
That's your problem. Try research and surveys that are generally acceptable.


Try answering the question. What exactly would constitute satisfactory proof to you?

The blue wall of silence is accepted as indisputable fact by the general public and by all experts who study criminology and law enforcement.


Just not to the extent you believe. If you don't have proof, it's just your own personal belief no different than those who believe in God.
89   Dan8267   2017 Sep 28, 1:22am  

You still haven't answered the question. Since you reject general public consensus, expert testimony, countless examples, and common sense, what exactly would constitute satisfactory proof to you?

The answer is obviously nothing. If it weren't, you'd have answer it already. No evidence will convince you. That is why your opinions don't matter. They are based on willful ignorance.
90   FuckTheMainstreamMedia   2017 Sep 28, 6:54am  

Dan8267 says
Strategist says
I don't. I disagree with your notion that most cops are bad cops.


That is because you ignore the crime of conspiracy. Just about all cops obstruct justice and harbor the criminal cops. It's called the blue wall of silence. It's no different than obstructing the CIA's efforts to thwart a terrorist attack.

The fact is that if even 10% of cops were honest, the other 90% would not get away with their crimes. Even a tiny minority of honest cops would make it impossible for the systemic corruption we see in American police departments.

And again, America is the only western nation that has this problem. Our cops are more like North Korean cops than like European cops.

Fucking White Male says
You are arguing with a guy that believes police brutality and abuse is worse than it was 20 years...


So which is it dude? Is police brutality worse because Obama and Eric Holder are incompetent, or has police brutality and corruption diminished as civilian and federal oversight have massively increased?
91   FuckTheMainstreamMedia   2017 Sep 28, 6:56am  

Dan8267 says
You still haven't answered the question. Since you reject general public consensus, expert testimony, countless examples, and common sense, what exactly would constitute satisfactory proof to you?

The answer is obviously nothing. If it weren't, you'd have answer it already. No evidence will convince you. That is why your opinions don't matter. They are based on willful ignorance.


LOFL general public consensus? You are utterly delusional if you think your views on law enforcement are in line with general public consensus.

I don't even agree with strategist on this and I'll admit that his views are the ones in direct line with general public consensus.
92   Dan8267   2017 Sep 28, 9:33am  

Fucking White Male says
You are utterly delusional if you think your views on law enforcement are in line with general public consensus.


That's not what I said. Once more you make a straw man argument.

What I said was the blue code of silence is acknowledge by the general public because it's so fucking obvious. If you deny that, your are a liar. Everyone knows cops don't tell on cops.
93   WookieMan   2017 Sep 28, 10:39am  

Dan8267 says
Everyone knows cops don't tell on cops.

This is very likely true in most cases. I know you've outlined how you think it could be solved in previous comments on this post. Some of those ideas are being implemented in many departments across the country and are good ones, you won't hear me argue that. But at some point, your more extreme fixes to the problems would result in there being no police. Like cops not personally involved in a beating/shooting being held financial liable for those that committed said crimes in the same department. At some point, even the salary and pension incentive of being a cop goes away when your idea gets implemented. No one would be a cop. Or there would be too few and things ultimately get worse for society. So it's got to be a balanced approach is all I'm saying.

And the blue code of silence does exist. Unfortunately it exist in almost every profession. Back when this was a housing forum, real estate brokers were the target. They of course don't have the ability/opportunity to be judge, jury and execution like a cop. But they are involved in the largest financial decision 95% of people will make. Listing and buyer agents basically screwing both parties just to get deals done. Oh and the lenders are real straight shooters too ;) I know it's not an apples to apples comparison, but a poor choice on housing or real estate investment and literally destroy people. I'm guessing you don't like Realtors either, but just trying to think of something somewhat comparable.

Ultimately everything in our society is flawed in one way or another. Time usually fixes this. We got slavery fixed. Got civil rights fixed. And ultimately the police brutality issue is going to be in the rear view mirror (except for a few outliers). It just takes time. What's unfortunately completely reversed from the mid 20th century is black crime. For some reason time hasn't been kind to that demographic.

The OP was about black on black crime being high leading to higher police interactions. Instead of just hitting this issue from the police perspective, what suggestions do you have to improve the outlook for the black community? It's not simply the fault of the police things got this way. I'd like to think if the crime was lower in black communities these interactions would decrease and therefore so would the police brutality. I'm not directing this at anyone here personally, but it's not racist to talk about blacks and their issues. Most races have some real shitty people in them. How do we help the shitty people?
94   Dan8267   2017 Sep 28, 11:07am  

WookieMan says
your more extreme fixes


Extreme is a word thrown around to discredit ideas and people without justification. It's become the most abused word in the English language over the past 20 years.

Feel free to make any specific, clear argument why any of my ideas won't work or are unethical. I'll gladly defend them, and if I fail, recant them. However, I've thought about the problem a lot, so making a compelling argument that these ideas are bad isn't going to be easy. I've got damn good justifications for every one of them.

WookieMan says
Ultimately everything in our society is flawed in one way or another. Time usually fixes this.


No. Time by itself fixes nothing. Nor is it acceptable to tolerate a great injustice and simply wait for the injustice to end by itself. It would have been immoral to allowed the Holocaust to continue until the Germans decided it was a bad idea. Furthermore some evils can be very stable over very long periods of time.

In any case, the message of the take a knee protests is 100% correct. Cops who commit murder or rape need to be prosecuted like anyone else would be. Otherwise America is not even remotely a nation that upholds the principle of justice for all.

There is no even slightly justifiable argument against the take a knee protests. One side is simply completely wrong just like it is often so in history. Examples of this include the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, slavery, segregation, marriage equality, and every genocide ever committed. Not every issue has two valid sides.
95   Dan8267   2017 Sep 28, 11:18am  

WookieMan says

The OP was about black on black crime being high leading to higher police interactions.


The thesis of the original post is dead wrong. It proposed that the slaughter of innocent and unarmed blacks is entirely explained by more police interactions taking place in high crime areas. Both statistics and well documented cases of police verbally stating that they are hunting blacks utterly disprove that thesis. This is indisputable.

In any case, the message behind the take a knee movement is necessary to protect white lives as well because criminal cops do murder and rape white people as well.

WookieMan says
Instead of just hitting this issue from the police perspective, what suggestions do you have to improve the outlook for the black community?


Is my stance that criminal cops should be held to answer to the same laws the rest of us answer to invalidated if I cannot make suggestions to decrease crime in black neighborhoods? That's a non-sequitur.

It's also an entirely different subject that merits its own thread. Feel free to open one. It's irrelevant to the take a knee movement for the same reason that one woman committing a crime means that your daughter's rapists should not be prosecuted. There's no connection between the two.

As for suggestions, the only ones I have are well-known ones that many others have already suggested. Things like cameras everywhere, community policing instead of militarize policing, prosecuting criminal cops so the public can actually trust cops for once, anti-poverty programs, better education systems, and decriminalizing drugs and prostitution so that people can get help and have the protection of the law.

But I'm not going to go off on a tangent in this thread, so open another thread if you want to discuss that subject. In any case, solving that problem is not a per-requisite for stopping cops from raping and murdering. Nor does crime in poor black neighborhoods at all justify any of the fake outrage at the NFL players. That outrage is simply a cover for the shame that people feel because the public is now aware of their apathy regarding their fellow Americans. Not giving a damn about the rest of your tribe always lowers social status in the tribe. That's what the objections are really about.
96   Dan8267   2017 Sep 28, 11:23am  

WookieMan says
It's not simply the fault of the police things got this way.


The NFL players are not blaming the cops for the crimes in black neighborhoods. That said, the criminal behavior of cops and the courts protection of such criminals absolutely contributes to non-police violent crime because the victims of such crimes cannot go to the police for protection. Cops committing crimes destroys public trust and makes law enforcement far less effective. As such, the criminal cops are harming everyone, not just their direct victims.

What is entirely the fault of the police is the rampant crime committed by cops. It is cops who are committing such crimes, and it is cops behind the blue wall of silence, and it is cops preventing the victim and the public from physically stopping the other cops who are raping and murdering. All of that is the fault of cops.

It is also entirely the fault of judges and prosecutors who choosing to not prosecute cops who rape and murder. There is no excuse for that.
97   Dan8267   2017 Sep 28, 11:28am  

WookieMan says
I'd like to think if the crime was lower in black communities these interactions would decrease and therefore so would the police brutality.


That's like saying rape would stop if women just never said no. You are blaming the victims, many of whom have never committed a crime in their lives. And regardless of how much crime is in a neighborhood, a law-abiding citizen should never have to fear the police and should never be harmed in any way by the police. And if such a person is harmed by the police, then the police should be punished under the law. And if they are not, then NFL players are fully justified in taking a knee during the national anthem to bring this travesty of justice to the public's awareness.

The first step to solving a problem is acknowledging it's existence. The NFL players are taking that first and necessary step. Once the whole nation, minus a few bigots, honestly admit the problem exists and is severe, then we can move one to step two, understanding the problem, and then to step three, finding solutions.
98   WookieMan   2017 Sep 28, 12:07pm  

Dan8267 says
There is no even slightly justifiable argument against the take a knee protests. One side is simply completely wrong just like it is often so in history. Examples of this include the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, slavery, segregation, marriage equality, and every genocide ever committed. Not every issue has two valid sides.


I never made an argument against the kneeling or what not. I simply don't care what they do and have zero problem with it. I will say, being concerned about which side of history I'm on is futile. In 200 years there's no doubt that slavery could exist again and we would be on the wrong side of history. Right, wrong and morals aren't concrete and technically don't exist except for us making them up.

Dan8267 says

Feel free to make any specific, clear argument why any of my ideas won't work or are unethical.

Dan8267 says
I'm not. I'm fining police for contributing to the crimes with the blue wall. Just about all cops protect criminal cops from prosecution and prevent victims and bystanders from fighting back against criminal cops. This makes them legally and morally accountable for the crimes. It's called conspiracy. It is very appropriate to not only fine them and to seize their assets to pay for victim compensation and future crime prevention, but also to imprison those conspirators for their part in the crime. It also finally provides an incentive for cops to not tolerate criminal behavior in their ranks, something that is sorely needed.


I'm sure a judge would just take this so seriously. "Everyone in this group most likely does this, so we need to punish them ALL." There's zero legal basis for this having happened in the past and nothing legally that would allow it to take place in the future. Say two cops shoot a suspect illegally in North Lawndale in Chicago. What you're saying is the cops in the same department, working in North Center are somehow liable for that because, "blue wall" or whatever? This is not only a bad idea, it's not legal. That and no sane person, with all the potential dangers already baked in, is going to become a cop moving forward. You'd literally have criminals running the streets in ALL the neighborhoods, not just the bad ones.

This idea won't work and is the one I'm pointing out. Who cares about ethics, it would be shot down by the court system in two seconds. You're an intelligent guy from what I can tell, and even you have to admit this far fetched. I don't have a source as I'm 100% sure there's never been a government agency where one person did something wrong, case went to court and the entire agency was found at fault and fined or prosecuted in some manner. This idea isn't real.

Dan8267 says

It's also an entirely different subject that merits its own thread. Feel free to open one. It's irrelevant to the take a knee movement for the same reason that one woman committing a crime means that your daughter's rapists should not be prosecuted. There's no connection between the two.


I may just take you up on this.

Just a side note to all this, if there was no crime then police wouldn't be needed. The rate of interaction goes to zero. So while police do commit crimes for sure, it wouldn't matter anymore, they wouldn't even be needed. So we can focus on reducing police violence, which again, I have zero problem with. But our fastest way to getting things better is to reduce crime. No crime = no police violence. It's a utopian view, but nothing is impossible, right?
99   socal2   2017 Sep 28, 12:17pm  

Dan8267 says
Cops committing crimes destroys public trust and makes law enforcement far less effective. As such, the criminal cops are harming everyone, not just their direct victims.


Right - a few bad cops are responsible for the sky-high rate of black on black murder and crime? A few bad cops are responsible for the astronomically high out of wedlock birth rate in the black community?

Can we not call out the massive social dysfunction in these communities at the same time we criticize and prosecute bad cops?

By only focusing on the cops, we are giving the black community a pass on the bigger issues causing poverty and crime.
100   Dan8267   2017 Sep 28, 1:25pm  

socal2 says
Right - a few bad cops are responsible for the sky-high rate of black on black murder and crime? A few bad cops are responsible for the astronomically high out of wedlock birth rate in the black community?


The blue wall of silence cannot be built by a few bad cops. Nearly every cop has to be complicit for the blue wall to exist. Your are empirically wrong.

socal2 says
Can we not call out the massive social dysfunction in these communities at the same time we criticize and prosecute bad cops?


We can, and we do. That does not at all mitigate the seriousness of the crimes committed by cops, the protection of those cops by other cops and by the courts, and the importance and nobility of the take a knee protests. Therefore objections to the protests are just manifestations of bigotry.

Furthermore, if black people committing crimes pisses you off so much, then so should criminal cops and the courts tolerance of such crimes because criminal cops magnify the violent crime in black neighborhoods because victims cannot go to the police. Victims cannot trust the police. That makes crime far more pervasive. These aren't mutually exclusive problems. They are complimentary problems.
101   socal2   2017 Sep 28, 1:36pm  

Dan8267 says
We can, and we do.


Really? We do?

When was the last time there was a major march, protest or prominent African American leader speaking out about the out of control violence in the black community? Which major black celebrities or athletes are shaming black men who abandon their children?

Bill Cosby (before his rape accusations) did this a bit, but was pilloried by the African American and white liberal community for betraying his race.
102   socal2   2017 Sep 28, 1:40pm  

socal2 says
Victims cannot trust the police.


People don't trust the police because people like you are smearing them all as a bunch of racist criminals.

People like you are doing massive harm to the inner-city and minority communities.

I already showed you that crime has gone up the last 2 years after years of decline. The whole BLM movement started 2 years ago, is this really a coincidence? If I was a cop, I would not be anxious to police black communities.
103   WookieMan   2017 Sep 28, 2:54pm  

socal2 says
If I was a cop, I would not be anxious to police black communities.

I'd quit. Why do it? That's the reality at some point. You can only push people so far. When there's a shortage of cops and they have to raise the salaries then people will be all pissed with how much cops are making. Or there won't be enough cops and crime will spike. Police brutality where it exists sucks, no doubt. But it by no means is the cause of most peoples problems. It's called jobs. It's called family. It's called money. It's not cops. Can't keep blaming others and that's what this is (as I think you mentioned in a prior comment).

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