patrick.net

https://data.pollstar.com/chart/2019/07/2019MidYearTop100WorldwideTours_747.pdf
richwicks says

I don't care about his bandmates, I don't think he's expressed being a "one-worlder" either.

Dude has a long history of being for whatever the Western Left is for.

Remember when the 80s Left, in a now forgotten activist moment that saw 100k's to millions of demonstrators, demanding the West unilaterally disarm nukes in the face of the USSR?

It is interesting that during an era marked by the United States' diminishing influence in the world, this country is still the most popular lens through which to examine the condition of the planet. For example, the biggest cheers of the evening came during Waters’ litany of gripes declared in huge letters onscreen, especially “(Expletive) The Supreme Court” and “(Expletive) The Patriarchy.”

https://www.guitarworld.com/magazine/roger-waters-veterans-patriotism-and-911
In 2019 he whinged about a concert to raise money for humanitarian aid to Venezuela, saying it was to embarass a Socialist Country.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/20/pink-floyd-roger-waters-condemns-richard-branson-venezuela-aid-concert
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/02/19/accusing-richard-branson-playing-regime-change-plot-roger-waters-warns-against-live

Waters mused about performing the Wall in Texas to protest Trump (whom he sees as a dangerous right wing demagogue who CREATES racial divisons like the general Left does, natch) and the Border Wall.
https://www.nme.com/news/music/roger-waters-pink-floyd-the-wall-us-mexico-border-trump-protest-1982810

Waters is all for borderless world, just one run by dogoodnik Artists and Academics instead of Big Business. Which, is an outdated view. The Artists, Academics, and Big Corps are working together for that Borderless World.

AmericanKulak says

What are you trying to convince me of? That people are generally idiots?

I know this.

Name a song from them that has any meaning.

AmericanKulak says

Dude has a long history of being for whatever the Western Left is for.

Remember when the 80s Left, in a now forgotten activist moment that saw 100k's to millions of demonstrators, demanding the West unilaterally disarm nukes in the face of the USSR?

Yes, I do. Now these leftist assholes are pushing for World War 3. I don't know what Roger Waters said at the time.

AmericanKulak says

Waters mused about performing the Wall in Texas to protest Trump (whom he sees as a dangerous right wing demagogue who CREATES racial divisons like the general Left does, natch) and the Border Wall.
https://www.nme.com/news/music/roger-waters-pink-floyd-the-wall-us-mexico-border-trump-protest-1982810

I don't dismiss people because they are just wrong on certain topics. I could fix him, in 5 hour conversation, no problem. He's simply disconnected.

But he's principled, even if he's wrong, he has principles. I have to respect that.

I also consider what is reported about him is nothing but a smear. YOU know our media lies, and I do. I can't trust that article's truthfulness at all. This is what we have for "news" after all:

https://web.archive.org/web/20230105080905/https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/09/trump-americans-who-died-at-war-are-losers-and-suckers/615997/

We are at the point you have to hear it from the horses mouth, and that is going to die because of deep fakes. You can't trust our media at all. They lie.

richwicks says

Name a song from them that has any meaning.

Why do songs have to have meaning?

If so, is playing instruments and all instrumentals trash?

richwicks says

Yes, I do. Now these leftist assholes are pushing for World War 3. I don't know what Roger Waters said at the time.

He made a few 80s albums that bombed, including Radio KAOS, which was about some Welsh Kid living in LA that was in a wheelchair but could manipulate computers into launching a fake nuclear war, whole album is about dismantling nukes with of course the West leading the way. The nuclear disarmament bullshit is also referenced in The Wall movie.

He's exactly the kind of Socialist Pacifist Orwell warned about in "On Nationalism". Big Criticism for the West, what little criticism for non-Western actors very muted, rare soft polite whispers.

richwicks says

I also consider what is reported about him is nothing but a smear. YOU know our media lies, and I do. I can't trust that article's truthfulness at all. This is what we have for "news" after all:

Funny, David Gilmour can tell you all about him, and his hypocrisy, his tax dodging, etc but he generally doesn't like to air dirty laundry. Waters thinks he's the bomb for his writing, and that the atmospheric sound - mostly Gilmour's work - ain't shit compared to his lyrics. Which honestly are okay, even good, but not earth shatteringly great.

richwicks says

What are you trying to convince me of? That people are generally idiots?

I know this.

The point of contention was:
richwicks says

Possibly, but the band wasn't just superficial tripe, and KISS was. KISS was entirely superficial, and entirely forgettable.

Almost everybody knows Detroit Rock City, Beth, and I Love It Loud including people under 30. It might be forgettable for you, but not for the far larger ticket sales to see KISS despite not having a big hit in almost 40 years, about the same time as Floyd.

Oh, Floyd did have "Learning to Fly" WITHOUT Waters, which was a top 20 hit in several countries in the late 80s.

It's okay to have some songs about getting laid, driving fast, listening to Rock. Not everything has to be about how Bleeding Heart Artfags will save the World

The Art Rock Atmospheric shit is Gilmour.

AmericanKulak says

Almost everybody knows Detroit Rock City, Beth, and I Love It Loud including people under 30.

It's okay to have some songs about getting laid, driving fast, listening to Rock. Not everything has to be about how Bleeding Heart Artfags will save the World

It's not OK to have a "band" that just glorifies lust, drugs, and senselessness.

That's all KISS was. It's a children's band.

KISS were the original Dylan Mulaney. No substance at all. Here, do you want to hear some innocent, meaningless music?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QySSV19St0

It's a beautiful song. If you want to hear something meaningless, it should at least be positive and joyful. How did we get a society to hate this sort of artform?

richwicks says

It's not OK to have a "band" that just glorifies lust, drugs, and senselessness.

That's all KISS was. It's a children's band.

It's fine to have Rock and Dance songs that don't have an overarching big deal Philosophical-Political meaning.

It's only Rock and Roll and I like it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGaBlygm0UY

Music is about everything and nothing.

Here's one written about a band thoroughly annoyed when critics were trying to find deeper meaning in a band's songs than there was. Hundreds of millions can recognize this song in less than 10 seconds.

I AM THE WALRUS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1Jm5epJr10

GOO GOO GAJOOB!

I too want to sing when a hot chick has just licked my LOVE GUN. Uh-uh-uhhhhh unnnnnn. 8 Million viewers of this one video that is a screenshot of the album cover agree.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhO_jnKl4pk

In contrast, nobody wanted the Final Cut, which was Roger Waters bitching about Maggie Thatcher defending the Falklands and somehow a "Betrayal" of his Father's WW2 service, if you can figure that out.

AmericanKulak says

Music is about everything and nothing.

That seems nihilistic.

AmericanKulak says

Here's one written about people trying to find deeper meaning in a band's songs than there was. Hundreds of millions can recognize this song in less than 10 seconds.

I AM THE WALRUS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1Jm5epJr10

GOO GOO GAJOOB!

Because the Beatles made it, only for that reason, that song is known. It couldn't stand on its own. If an unknown band produced the same thing, none of us would be aware it was ever created.

The only reason we know about this is celebrity worship.

richwicks says

That seems nihilistic.

It's the opposite, it's all encompassing of a range of human experiences. As an Art Rock fanboy myself, but not every song needs to be about:

The Ruins of Pompeii - "Cities in Dust" - Siouxsie and the Banshees (mid 80s)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsOHvP1XnRg&t=176s

OR The Trans Europe Express - Kraftwerk (1977)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3R-D44ak7g
This band's riffs having been sampled off by other artists from Afrikka Bambatta and the Soulsonic Force in the 80s to Coldplay in the 2000s. Probably only Parliament-Funkadelic was sampled more.

Most people have never heard of them, or realized it was the German Band being parodied in "The Big Lebowski" and countless Easter Eggs/References. There are even Latin Dance versions of their music by Senor Coconut.

richwicks says

Because the Beatles made it, only for that reason, that song is known. It couldn't stand on its own. If an unknown band produced the same thing, none of us would be aware it was ever created.

Who knows? Other surprising songs became famous.

Here's an instrumental from the 70s most can recognize from a film or a sample. It was a dance hit from London to Paris to New York and launched probably hundreds of careers in electronic driven music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ab7tIZNplM

Or just Smack My Bitch Up. 24M views. Other than smack my bitch up and "Hey" there are no lyrics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZPECFQ4NhE

Or back to 70s Art/Space Rock... Neu! "Hallogallo", no lyrics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zndpi8tNZyQ

Waters’ new version of Dark Side of the Moon is being prepared for release in May, with no date yet confirmed. According to Tristram Fane Saunders in the Telegraph, who listened to the new recording: “Waters seems to have decided that what was wrong with the original album’s beautiful instrumental tracks was that they didn’t have Waters talking all over them. Now they do.”

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/mar/03/roger-waters-reveals-first-music-from-re-recorded-solo-dark-side-of-the-moon

Can't say I ever listened to a single KISS song in my life, unless it was background music somewhere and I didn't know it. Not for any particular reason, it just looked like teeny bopper foolishness all around.

AmericanKulak says

richwicks says

Because the Beatles made it, only for that reason, that song is known. It couldn't stand on its own. If an unknown band produced the same thing, none of us would be aware it was ever created.

Who knows? Other surprising songs became famous.

Can you name a song like "I am the Walrus" from an UNKNOWN band, a one hit wonder?

The Beatles were just making fun of their fan base with that song.

I don't want to particularly argue about this, I'm simply saying KISS I always considered meaningless and their particular fame was how "outrageous" they were. If they didn't wear a shitload of makeup and a bunch of leather, they wouldn't have gone anywhere.

They were the forerunner of attentions whores we see today, like Sam Smith. They were failed bands as well like Quiet Riot and Frankie Goes to Hollywood. It's just the entire "be controversial" in some way.

Remember Insane Clown Posse? Same thing, just another era.

AmericanKulak says

Afrikka Bambatta

Pretty good act. I consider the Beatles, though being great musicians individually, overrated as a band. The best riff of that time hands down goes to gimme shelter by the Stones, def a contender for best riff evah.

I don't mind some KISS tunes now and then. Yeah, it's meaningless, repetitive, and formulaic, but trying to find meaning in everything all of the time is tiring. Sometimes you just need something mindless to relax to and enjoy. Same reason I like watching a mindless action flick now and then, skipping a rock across a calm lake, or playing some fast-paced shoot'em-up video game.

All depends on the mood.

richwicks says

They were failed bands as well like Quiet Riot and Frankie Goes to Hollywood. It's just the entire "be controversial" in some way.

I wouldn't consider either of these bands to be failures. I've heard songs from both of them within the past week. If music I wrote was still being played and listened to 30+ years later, I'd be pretty happy.

Karloff says

I don't mind some KISS tunes now and then. Yeah, it's meaningless, repetitive, and formulaic, but trying to find meaning in everything all of the time is tiring. Sometimes you just need something mindless to relax to and enjoy. Same reason I like watching a mindless action flick now and then, skipping a rock across a calm lake, or playing some fast-paced shoot'em-up video game.

All depends on the mood.

EXACTLY.

Otherwise, where would Weird Al be? Or "Orbital" or "The Orb" or other chill electronic music. Same reason I fall asleep to "Space Documentary Background Music" on the Drone Zone at https://somafm.com/dronezone/songhistory.html

When I drive I sometimes listen to synthwave (think Knight Rider Theme or the old game "Outrun" soundtrack):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDBbaGCCIhk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLPoZGX0qZk

richwicks says

I don't want to particularly argue about this, I'm simply saying KISS I always considered meaningless and their particular fame was how "outrageous" they were. If they didn't wear a shitload of makeup and a bunch of leather, they wouldn't have gone anywhere.

I hear you, but I don't think Kiss was no more outrageous in style than any other glam bands; if anything they were less androgynous than most. The whole outrageous costume/makeup thing was going on simultaneously or a bit before Kiss in the early 70s.

Sweet ("Ballroom Blitz"), Peter Gabriel-fronted Genesis, etc. all used makeup and wild costumes.


Bowie circa early 70s


Much later, but Twisted Sister was far more grotesque in appearance when they came out. They purposefully tried to look like Trannies.

Karloff says

I wouldn't consider either of these bands to be failures. I've heard songs from both of them within the past week. If music I wrote was still being played and listened to 30+ years later, I'd be pretty happy.

Bang your head, for Metal Health.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_1ruZWJigo
mell says

Pretty good act. I consider the Beatles, though being great musicians individually, overrated as a band. The best riff of that time hands down goes to gimme shelter by the Stones, def a contender for best riff evah.

I hear you on that one. I have to get more into the Stones, they have some great songs, but I haven't checked out the deeper cuts.

The most overrated band from my era would have to be Nirvana.

Sadly, Rock is pretty much dead and has been for years.

Kiss is shock rock. Doesn't even matter about message. It's just not good music. I wouldn't consider it fun either. It's a gimmick. Selling out 30 arena dates is dick as well. Play 120-150 shows a year. That's what real bands do. I've played more than 30 shows a year as a drummer back in the day. And I didn't have crew doing shit for me.

I don't particularly care about the message. I listen to the instruments I know. Kiss does not have good musicians or song writing. This really isn't debatable. I'll take Floyd 10 out of 10 times. I have musicians that I know are better overall than Kiss or Floyd. I know one guitarist in the Chicago region that would eat the likes of Clapton or Jimmi when he was alive.

If you've done a tour you meet some ridiculous musicians. Most famous ones are overhyped or just got the marketing money to push albums and shows. I've opened for famous bands and met a lot of famous bands. They're mostly ass holes to be honest. They treat touring like it's an accounting job. Their sets suck. Some were awesome and down to earth though. Rusted Root was probably the best. Great group of guys. Actively watched our set when we were the opener. Were super nice.

WookieMan says

Kiss is shock rock. Doesn't even matter about message.

I wouldn't consider Kiss the equal of Pink Floyd musically.

But it's like comparing Monty Python's Holy Grail to Blade Runner, or Apocalypse Now to Drunken Master (Jackie Chan Flick)

Is Blade Runner "Better" than Python's "Grail"? "Well cinematically, and in terms of depth"... two different Genres of Film.

There's just such different modes they're not comparable.

Karloff says

eah, it's meaningless, repetitive, and formulaic, but trying to find meaning in everything all of the time is tiring.

Yes, it's tiresome because you can't find any meaning in it, because there is no meaning in it.

If I want to listen to music that just gives me emotional engagement, I'll listen to classical music. If there's words, they have to have meaning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NjssV8UuVA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmk5frp6-3Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkxXFLRmqvw

You've heard these before too. I CAN appreciate music, but notice what survives is simply remarkable. This is meaningless, emotional, beautiful music. Here is some of Handel's water music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAyiidg25uE

I don't deny there isn't remarkable music, but I hate music that has lyrics that are meaningless. If you're going to have lyrics, don't make nonsense.

Don't get me wrong as some snob twat that insists classical music if "the best". It's antiquated, but still worthy of attention. It's like an old film. From another era, and we should respect the other eras. Look at the artwork produced 2000 years ago, some of it is just amazing.

You've seen this before, this is marble:



Let's not forget our dead ancestors. That's a remarkable work, what do we produce today that is equivalent or better? This is Jeffrey Koons:



Music is the same. An embarrassment. Fraud is our life now.

Classic Spinal Tap Skit:

"In D-minor, which is the saddest of all keys... I don't know why".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7vk5keNbRc

Here, since we are talking about music, and senseless music, listen to these people:

https://www.youtube.com/@LeonidVorobyevandfriends

They are a cover band for the Chicago band, they are Russian I believe, and they have talent. They are very good in my opinion. Better than Chicago ever was.

AmericanKulak says

WookieMan says

Kiss is shock rock. Doesn't even matter about message.

I wouldn't consider Kiss the equal of Pink Floyd musically.

But it's like comparing Monty Python's Holy Grail to Blade Runner, or Apocalypse Now to Drunken Master (Jackie Chan Flick)

Is Blade Runner "Better" than Python's "Grail"? "Well cinematically, and in terms of depth"... two different Genres of Film.

There's just such different modes they're not comparable.

Neither is technically talented at individual instruments. Pink Floyd just writes better music composed as a whole. A 3rd grader could play either bands music and start a cover band. Music is marketing and who you know. There are so many "unfound" amazing musicians out there. It frankly sucks who is pushed to the forefront.

WookieMan says

It frankly sucks who is pushed to the forefront.

^^^ This ^^^

The current celebrity is a fat, disgusting black woman that refuses to wear any fucking clothing.




It's BECAUSE she's grossly overweight she's "a star". Nothing else. But it's been this way forever it just used to be you had to have mediocre ability and be fit. It's all artificial and ability and creativity, they are the least important parts to stardom.

Arguing about Pink Floyd, Lol! When are we going to start arguing about who is more badass, Predator or the Alien monster?

Syd Barrett was LSD soaked insane, but a great lyricist and managed to tap the pre-conscious in his contributions. Things deteriorated with Waters in the lyrics department, though Gilmour took up some of the slack for a while. Waters stuff is kind of childish, which is not necessarily a knock for rock. Barrett's last unattributed contribution was on the soundtrack to the movie 'More', which I think is also their last decent album before they went pedestrian under the Waters' tutelage.

The rock OldFuckGomer-Sphere seem to love "The Wall" and audiophiles will pay thousands for an 15IPS tape that is close to the master.

Animals and Saucerful of Secrets are my top two. Other albums aren't bad either, but it's what I grew up on. Nostalgia. I really don't care too much for The Wall unless I'm extremely high or on shrooms. It's good, but Animals I think is their best album IMHO. That's an album you can journey to if you like to imbibe in drugs that won't kill you.

Maybe there should be a 'Patnet Shroom Meter', say, one to ten shrooms for how many you have to take before the music sounds good. I like some Grateful Dead, but i think for the most part, they are a six plus shroom experience.

I knew an audiophile shrink who had 5000 vinyl records and racks full of Grateful Dead concert tapes ( he was a DeadHead following the concerts from way back). He also went to Mexico every year to go into huts and imbibe the Shaman drugs Ayahuasca. He invited me to go with him, but I told him it wasn't my thing. I didn't need to be any crazier.

I don't need any shrooms to continue to enjoy that old Pink Floyd stuff (or anything else for that matter), it really taps into something.

How many shrooms for a typical KISS thing? I still can't recall ever having heard any.

What's so great about Jeffrey Koons art?

Ceffer says

Syd Barrett was LSD soaked insane, but a great lyricist and managed to tap the pre-conscious in his contributions.

Syd Barrett sucked. I don't know why people associate him with Pink Floyd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9VBCMhcHcg

That's him. Pink Floyd did not became famous because of him. He was terrible. I'm glad he was pushed out of the band, because he was the worst part of it. He totally sucked. It's like early Beatles, nobody actually listens to them. They were a pop band, awful. When they got famous they experimented, the Beatles got WEIRD and stupid, and Pink Floyd got creative and interesting.

Number 9, Number 9? Man, the Beatles are fine as a child, but it's all meaningless pap and then it moved onto complete nonsense. We all live in a yellow submarine don't we? The stupidity of the Beatles is enormous, but they were creative about incorporating new instruments into modern music, but they are vastly over-rated. All their lyrics were stupid, and that reflects on the band itself, it's meaningless. Nobody in that group had a thought in their head.

Look at the Wings and Paul McCartney:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P_VfLun96o

It's pleasant to listen to, but is there is anything behind it? Life is too short to study nothing. I like meaningful thoughtful things. Everybody does, but they don't realize it. You know what I think people might find 50 years from now as a thoughtful song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjSpO2B6G4s

That's the insanity of war, and we'll be in fucking war 50 years from now. Somebody will listen to that in 50 years, nobody is going to be listening to "Yellow Submarine" or "Band On the Run" at that time. You can see the gems being made in the heaping piles of manure. Nobody will know who Kiss was in 100 years. They will be "oh, the ancient bands that became famous because they wore gay makeup". Think "Lick It Up" is going to be played by anybody then? No offense to people that liked that band. I'm just pointing out that will be forgotten because they're not timeless, they are superificial.

You CAN see what will survive in 100 years, if you look. The rest, it's part of a dead culture or a culture that will be dead. Preserve what is worth preserving, and there's lots we've made to preserve, and awful lot that doesn't deserve it.

I don't think people understand where we are. We are in a culture that can preserve video and audio, indefinitely. You can't listen to a musician from 1850, but in 2200, people will be able to listen to a musician from 1980. This will fundamentally change our culture. We have a memory now, that spans generations. The world has been fundamentally changed, you just don't realize it. Somebody 2000 years from now will be able to see exactly what our lives were like, if we can preserve the information, and we can, it just takes a little effort - currently. Eliminate that to zero effort, and this civilization will really build.

People are just unaware of the era we are in. They just think "oh it's new technology", no - we have made a fundamental breakthrough. On an $11 SD Card, you can store more books than you can read in a lifetime, and that's just $11. Probably will be $6 in another couple years. Everything you can know, will fit on a $10 device. What is worth knowing, that's the new question.

Either humanity will flourish or fail. Everybody has infinite access to information now. What will they do with it?

I know we are just talking about music, but there's centuries of it. Look at what we've built and created. It's amazing. Are we going to build or destroy?



With all this power and information, what will we do? I hope it's the right thing. We now all have access to all the information we can ever absorb, so what will our art become? It's garbage now. I can say that.



Look at the pigs we have as celebrities. I have hope we'll turn around. We've always had pigs as celebrities. Is it any different?



Oh, how shocking. That's 40 years old, same bullshit.

I think our civilization is struggling for meaning, and I think we'll find it. But it's quite a struggle. There is so much interference. Who in popular media represents the best of us today? That's the interference. Who in popular media can we look up toward? It's messed up that you and I look down on all of them, isn't it? There's no real good role models today.

richwicks says

Syd Barrett sucked. I don't know why people associate him with Pink Floyd.

I know he drugged himself out of his mind, but Pink Floyd likely wouldn't exist in the first place is the only good thing I'll say about Syd. And Saucerful of Secrets ain't that bad. That's 5 a shroom album on Ceffer's scale. Or 50mg of edibles.

While it looks fun from the outside, you're basically family that you really didn't choose with a band. Our lead guitar and bassist were the only ones that consistently got along with me. The percussionist was a tag along and just wanted to be in a band. He's a great friend. Little talent.

There's also animosity when you don't have a crew. For me set and tear down I'm sweating my ass of as the bassist and guitarist close a pedal box, unplug and carry two cases off the stage and an amp. They then sit there and have a drink or smoke. Drumming live without a tech is a bitch. Especially when they didn't help me get my shit in the car. After all I did the hardest physical work during the show. Frustrating.

WookieMan says

richwicks says

Syd Barrett sucked. I don't know why people associate him with Pink Floyd.

I know he drugged himself out of his mind, but Pink Floyd likely wouldn't exist in the first place is the only good thing I'll say about Syd. And Saucerful of Secrets ain't that bad.

Here's something to think about, neither you nor I would exist, if it wasn't for WWII. All those men murdered and killed, created us.

You only care about the result, which is correct, and I don't think Barrett was any sort of talent, but that he was part of making a good band, fine whatever. His problems created a result. If he continued with the band, nobody would know who Pink Floyd is today, but he was part of making it.

It was Roger Water's death of his father that made the band memorable. That was the heart and soul of that band. Stupid fucking war. Water's father was a conscientious objector at the beginning, changed, and then when was killed. War is stupid. Water's father died in 1944. His father was just a child when he died in another senseless war.

This song obviously reflected his life:


original link

He's an old man now. His father's stupid death in a stupid war shaped him. I appreciate that Waters talked about his own life. War is an awful thing, but because the US has done this, we deserve it. We will experience it in time, because nobody stands up to stop it.

You better stand up.