patrick.net

Why do you hate capitalism?

Private Equity didn't kill hostess.

zzyzzx says

Private Equity didn't kill hostess.

Private equity probably wasn't as egregiously bad in Hostess as in Toys R Us or a multitude of other cases, but it was a significant cause of Hostess.

https://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/11/19/private-equity-and-hostess-stumbling-together/
"Perhaps the most egregious sin of Ripplewood’s oversight of Hostess was the increase in management’s compensation at the same time it was seeking to cut employee compensation. The Confectionery, Tobacco Workers & Grain Millers International Union pointed out that the company’s new chief executive was paid $2,550,000, up from $750,000. Another “executive received a pay increase from $500,000 to $900,000 and another received one taking his salary from $375,000 to $656,256,” the union said. Mr. Collins declined to comment."

zzyzzx says

And looking at your chart:

How did unions stop Hostess from innovating new, heathier products?

How did unions stop Hostess from shutting down plants and consolidating production?

How did unions stop Hostess from ditching thrift stores and moving to convenience stores?

How did unions stop Hostess from innovating new, heathier products? - Easy. Harder to invest into R&D when union pensions and automatic step increases are bleeding a company dry. Management also holds some fault for bad leadership, but that bad leadership is often supported by unions if they make "deals" that help the union. This is the problem with unions, corruption usually increases.

How did unions stop Hostess from shutting down plants and consolidating production? - Threats of strikes. These can cost employers millions of dollars a day.

How did unions stop Hostess from ditching thrift stores and moving to convenience stores? - Probably unions saying if you close those branded thrift stores, that's tens of thousands of jobs, and we'll strike.

I will admit KKR is the destroyer of companies. I use to invest in FDC until KKR got involved took it over loaded it with debt and recently it went public again at half the value and doesn't have the same growth it use to have.

Goran_K says

How did unions stop Hostess from innovating new, heathier products? - Easy. Harder to invest into R&D when union pensions and automatic step increases are bleeding a company dry. Management also holds some fault for bad leadership, but that bad leadership is often supported by unions if they make "deals" that help the union. This is the problem with unions, corruption usually increases.

Proof. Or just opinion?

Goran_K says

How did unions stop Hostess from shutting down plants and consolidating production? - Threats of strikes. These can cost employers millions of dollars a day.

Wow really? Wouldn't it be extremely easy to shut down a plant if the workers were on strike. Really not understand your logic here?

Pretty sure the mere threat of a strick wouldn't cost millions, thousands or even tens or ones. Be more like zeros.

I'd say raising an executives salary by millions does cost the company millions and is a slap in the face to others working there.

Goran_K says

Easy. Harder to invest into R&D when union pensions and automatic step increases are bleeding a company dry. Management also holds some fault for bad leadership, but that bad leadership is often supported by unions if they make "deals" that help the union. This is the problem with unions, corruption usually increases.

Wrong.

1. Management agreed to union contracts. Of course workers asked for as much as they could get. That's called capitalism.
2. Unions actually agreed to reduced benefits when the company was in trouble. Management increased their own pay rather than increase investment in R&D.

Goran_K says

Threats of strikes. These can cost employers millions of dollars a day.

I assume you can show some evidence that Hostess wanted to shut down plants but unions at other plants threatened to strike? Please share.

Goran_K says

Probably unions saying if you close those branded thrift stores, that's tens of thousands of jobs, and we'll strike.

Great--Same question as above. You've got evidence of this?

anon_8f378 says

Great--Same question as above. You've got evidence of this?

There is no evidence, only ideology.

anon_8f378 says

Wrong.

1. Management agreed to union contracts. Of course workers asked for as much as they could get. That's called capitalism.
2. Unions actually agreed to reduced benefits when the company was in trouble. Management increased their own pay rather than increase investment in R&D.

Uh, that was exactly my point.

Unions and the leaders who support the unions are part of the corruption. This happens all the time. Look at how the Public Sector Unions in Illinois sucked the state dry in EXCHANGE for Democrat votes? The losers are the share holders, or in Illinois case, the taxpayers.

How is this not corruption?

anon_8f378 says

Wrong.

1. Management agreed to union contracts. Of course workers asked for as much as they could get. That's called capitalism.

That's called blackmail.

Goran_K says

Unions and the leaders who support the unions are part of the corruption. This happens all the time. Look at how the Public Sector Unions in Illinois sucked the state dry in EXCHANGE for Democrat votes? The losers are the share holders, or in Illinois case, the taxpayers.

How is this not corruption?

More blackmail.

This is how unions destroy progress, innovation, and companies.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/24/labor-teamsters-want-to-ban-ups-from-using-drones-driverless-vehicles.html Union heavyweight wants to ban UPS from using drones or driverless vehicles
-----

Strategist says

This is how unions destroy progress, innovation, and companies.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/24/labor-teamsters-want-to-ban-ups-from-using-drones-driverless-vehicles.html Union heavyweight wants to ban UPS from using drones or driverless vehicles

Fucking Blackmail. Union thugs belong in prison.

Strategist says

That's called blackmail.

lol--is it blackmail when you ask your boss for a raise?

Strategist says

This is how unions destroy progress, innovation, and companies.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/24/labor-teamsters-want-to-ban-ups-from-using-drones-driverless-vehicles.html Union heavyweight wants to ban UPS from using drones or driverless vehicles

You have bought so far into propaganda that you can't even see truth anymore. Of course unions are fighting to save jobs. That's their charter.

Strategist says

Fucking Blackmail. Union thugs belong in prison.

hilarious. Private equity thugs are the ones that really belong in jail. They caused 22,000 people to lose their jobs.

I like twinkies but then I am white.

HappyGilmore says

Strategist says

That's called blackmail.

lol--is it blackmail when you ask your boss for a raise?

Please go try that and report back what he says.

HappyGilmore says

Of course unions are fighting to save jobs COLLECT DUES. That's their charter.

There, more accurate.

HappyGilmore says

Strategist says

That's called blackmail.

lol--is it blackmail when you ask your boss for a raise?

If you can shut down the company if your demands are not met, yes, it's blackmail.

HappyGilmore says

Strategist says

This is how unions destroy progress, innovation, and companies.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/24/labor-teamsters-want-to-ban-ups-from-using-drones-driverless-vehicles.html Union heavyweight wants to ban UPS from using drones or driverless vehicles

You have bought so far into propaganda that you can't even see truth anymore. Of course unions are fighting to save jobs. That's their charter.

By destroying a company? Like Hostess did? Sounds like they only jobs unions are trying to save are the jobs of the $1000,000.00K union bosses.

Strategist says

Strategist says

Fucking Blackmail. Union thugs belong in prison.

hilarious. Private equity thugs are the ones that really belong in jail. They caused 22,000 people to lose their jobs.

They create jobs and a high standard of living. why do you think we are better off than Venezuela?

HappyGilmore says

Strategist says

If you can shut down the company if your demands are not met, yes, it's blackmail.

Strikes almost never shut a company down so then the answer is no. Good management plans ahead with contingency plans as they know it's a part of doing business.

Because management gives in to union blackmail. Giving in to them is a better alternative to a complete shut down. Unions know this, which is why their blackmail strategy works in the short run. In the long run the company suffers, along with jobs that could have been created, had the company been more successful.

HappyGilmore says

Strategist says

By destroying a company? Like Hostess did? Sounds like they only jobs unions are trying to save are the jobs of the $1000,000.00K union bosses.

See--that's where you're wrong. Despite all the evidence I've shown, you continue to believe your fantasy that the union destroyed the company. Open your eyes man! Open your mind! Read what has been posted here. Turn off the propaganda.

And we have shown you evidence that it's the union that screwed the company. Why do you think the company is more successful without the unions and their silly rules?

HappyGilmore says

There are many reasons why we're better than Venezuela

All those reasons boil down to one good reason. Socialism does not work.

Strategist says

ecause management gives in to union blackmail. Giving in to them is a better alternative to a complete shut down. Unions know this, which is why their blackmail strategy works in the short run. In the long run the company suffers, along with jobs that could have been created, had the company been more successful.

Nope--typically managers do union jobs or they bring in temps to do them. Or production is shifted to a different plant temporarily. Going on strike rarely pays off so unions are very reticent to actually do it. Companies often find that they didn't need so many workers once management has to do the jobs..

Strategist says

And we have shown you evidence that it's the union that screwed the company. Why do you think the company is more successful without the unions and their silly rules?

You've shown me ZERO evidence.

Strategist says

All those reasons boil down to one good reason. Socialism does not work.

And nobody is arguing that socialism is better. What's your point? (fyi--unions are not socialism)

Hutch says

Strategist says

HappyGilmore says

There are many reasons why we're better than Venezuela

All those reasons boil down to one good reason. Socialism does not work.

Hey, did you know the socialist government under Chavez and Maduro view unions as a threat to their power. Is not favoring unions a path to socialism? Sure looks that way to me.

Even Socialists don't like unions. Wow.
Communists and socialists don't like unions because they are seen as selfish, only looking out for themselves at the expense of others.

Hutch says

And we have shown you evidence that it's the union that screwed the company. Why do you think the company is more successful without the unions and their silly rules?

Not seeing this evidence you refer to. Only seeing your opinion's. Opinion is not evidence.

We had lots of threads and arguments on Hostess in the past. Here is the bottom line evidence that Zzyzzx already posted.
anon_8f378 says

Goran_K says

HappyGilmore says

I've never heard of any member of management of a private company working with union leaders to the detriment of the company. That simply never happens.

Okay. I think there is an obvious lack of knowledge of reality here.

Come on guys, enough with the personal attacks. That includes you Goran, remember attack the message not the messenger. It's quite simple.

True. Let's not talk about the other users specifically.

Strategist says

We had lots of threads and arguments on Hostess in the past. Here is the bottom line evidence that Zzyzzx already posted.

None of that is evidence of union killing Hostess. That is all how management killed Hostess.

Strategist says

ven Socialists don't like unions. Wow.
Communists and socialists don't like unions because they are seen as selfish, only looking out for themselves at the expense of others.

Socialism has no need for unions because government controls all mean of production and provides for citizens.

That is why claiming unions are similar to socialism is ridiculous.

Hutch says

Strategist says

Because management gives in to union blackmail. Giving in to them is a better alternative to a complete shut down. Unions know this, which is why their blackmail strategy works in the short run. In the long run the company suffers, along with jobs that could have been created, had the company been more successful.

Again, opinion.

My opinion is that private unions are what made this country great. Giving rise to a large middle class and producing tremendous wealth for all. What you call blackmail others call collective bargaining same differnce except your desire to portray it in a negative light.

Public unions such as the police unions are the unions we need to fear.

There was a time when unions did some good by demanding safety, child labor laws, equal pay etc. We now have strong laws that protect workers from exploitation, thereby making unions useless. We need to fear all unions, especially public unions because those blood suckers cannot kill the animal they infest.

Strategist says

There was a time when unions did some good by demanding safety, child labor laws, equal pay etc. We now have strong laws that protect workers from exploitation, thereby making unions useless. We need to fear all unions, especially public unions because those blood suckers cannot kill the animal they infest.

Companies will always try to exploit workers to increase profits so we always need a strong voice for workers to counteract this. As union strength has weakened, you've seen wage growth for workers lag far behind productivity growth. All the gains are going to the owner class.

This is very bad for the economy.

HappyGilmore says

Strategist says

There was a time when unions did some good by demanding safety, child labor laws, equal pay etc. We now have strong laws that protect workers from exploitation, thereby making unions useless. We need to fear all unions, especially public unions because those blood suckers cannot kill the animal they infest.

Companies will always try to exploit workers to increase profits so we always need a strong voice for workers to counteract this.

We already have a strong voice to prevent exploitation for everyone, not just a lucky few - Government

HappyGilmore says

As union strength has weakened, you've seen wage growth for workers lag far behind productivity growth. All the gains are going to the owner class.

Have you seen the ridiculous pensions government employees get? Retire at 55, full pay until they croak.
Seems to me it's the poor taxpayer who is getting exploited. Who will protect us?

Strategist says

We already have a strong voice to prevent exploitation for everyone, not just a lucky few - Government

There's nobody in the US government that's helping me get a bigger raise. Is there someone who helps you?

Strategist says

Have you seen the ridiculous pensions government employees get? Retire at 55, full pay until they croak.
Seems to me it's the poor taxpayer who is getting exploited. Who will protect us?

We're not talking about public employees. That is an entirely different topic.

https://finance.yahoo.com/m/60fd4f24-cfe0-3167-a2fc-68a0bfd98f02/hostess-brands-stock-soars-as.html

Hostess Brands Stock Soars as Smucker Buying Twinkies Maker for $5.6 Billion

zzyzzx says

https://finance.yahoo.com/m/60fd4f24-cfe0-3167-a2fc-68a0bfd98f02/hostess-brands-stock-soars-as.html

Hostess Brands Stock Soars as Smucker Buying Twinkies Maker for $5.6 Billion

Dang it! Should have bought some...oh well.

1337irr says

Dang it! Should have bought some...oh well.

Yep

Strategist says

Have you seen the ridiculous pensions government employees get? Retire at 55, full pay until they croak.
Seems to me it's the poor taxpayer who is getting exploited. Who will protect us?

Not really. If they are under the Federal Employee Retirement System, then they only get 1% for each year of civil service if they retire before 62 (and 1.1% for each year if at age 62 or later).

If they retire at minimum retirement age they get FERS and a Social Security supplement, but I think it comes out to roughly 63% of salary if they worked for 35 years. However, they also get matching 401k through the Thrift Savings Program which is a great benefit also.

Federal law enforcement officers (LEO) like FBI and US Marshal Service have a better pension than non-LEO federal retirees, as I believe they get 2.5% for each year for the first 20 years of service, and 2% for each year for years 21 and later.

.