patrick.net

@Patrick

I believe comment 99 is against your rules

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Here's what would have happened if they had one gatehouse at the entrance to the campus.

Kid drives up in an Uber. Guard gets the Kid's name, looks him up, he's on a list because the school already put out a warning he was not to enter and was expelled.

You've just prevented a mass shooting.

lol--so every parent who comes to pick up their child has to be cleared by a security guard? Do you have any idea how long that would take and how impractical it is?

CajunSteve says

I believe comment 99 is against your rules

I believe 90 was also against "Your Rules" @Patrick.

I'm an Armchair Quarterback for noticing there was not a single ONE (1) dedicated guard for an immense campus of 3100+ Kids.

Imagine if Lockheed-Martin, or the Department of Energy, or for that matter General Mills or the Florida Department of Agriculture or a UPS distribution center did not have a single dedicated security guard for a campus of over 3100 employees, nor a controlled gateway for vehicles.

If some crazed shooter, or random individual, entered that facility and killed somebody or stole documents, the lack of even rudimentary security would be a scandal.

Here we have a kid already on a list and known to the school authorities as well as the Sheriff's Office, who could penetrate a 3100+ campus without the least interaction with a human being, because there wasn't a single dedicated security person for a facility of that size.

And people are saying "What could we have done?"

PS The last TWO hospitals I went into, both in Florida and one in a rural unincorporated part of the county that only had a handful of beds, I had to give up my Driver's License and take a picture to get past the security guard, who gave me a badge with my photo on it. This hospital had maybe a few hundred patients and staff at most and definitely less than 3000 people at any given time.

Like I said, the school had no security to speak of.

CajunSteve says

@Patrick

I believe comment 99 is against your rules

Since when is requoting a poster a problem?

CajunSteve says

lol--so every parent who comes to pick up their child has to be cleared by a security guard?

Do many parents carry AR-15's with them when they pick up their kids?

"We have a security person. Our only choice is to ban all firearms."
"Where was the security officer at the time of the shooting?"
"Oh, he was 20 miles away interviewing the potential hire for the new Assistant Food and Beverage Director."

Malcolm says

CajunSteve says

I agree with you except for the community officer part. He would have been the 1st casualty.

Why do you take it as a certainty that the gunman would win against an armed community officer?

Exactly, he wouldn't

A trained LEO or ex military SRO would NOT be taken by surprise by a punk ass kid?

That's Hollywood movie fiction.

Malcolm says

CajunSteve says

I agree with you except for the community officer part. He would have been the 1st casualty.

Why do you take it as a certainty that the gunman would win against an armed community officer?

Exactly, he wouldn't

A trained LEO or ex military SRO would NOT be taken by surprise by a punk ass kid?

That's Hollywood movie fiction.

Malcolm says

CajunSteve says

I agree with you except for the community officer part. He would have been the 1st casualty.

Why do you take it as a certainty that the gunman would win against an armed community officer?

Exactly, he wouldn't .

A trained LEO or ex military SRO would NOT be taken by surprise by a punk ass kid?

That's Hollywood movie fiction.

Sniper says

What if an armed and trained security guard was in the hallway and he knew they were there? Any chance the outcome might have changed when the guard heard him shooting his way in?

For starters, the cops would have had a heads-up real fast. And give the kids time to escape or lock the classroom doors.

But the AR-15 was almost certainly in his backpack, and at least on it's hinges. If he decided to shoot his way through the gatehouse/front door, he'd have to take off the backpack, pull out the rifle, and put it together. 30 seconds if he was stone-cold SSRI overdose. Longer if he was the least nervous.

Every delay and obstacle increases the chance of survival. Too bad there weren't any at the school.

"But Muh Cameras"

That nobody was watching.

Malcolm says

First, I am not anti gun or liberal, but facts is facts. Australia is averaging 1 out of 100,000 deaths from homicide. The USA, depending on what numbers you can find are between 3 and 5 per hundred thousand.

Sure. Idaho has 1.9 murders per 100k, with the 3rd highest rate of gun ownership. Washington DC has 26 murders per 100k. Ask yourself what the difference is between those places.

Then do the same comparison between the US and Australia. (Hint: it's not guns, it's culture.)

Last time I went to a hospital in rural Florida. A few hundred patients, faculty and staff, tops. Obviously, mostly adults.

No getting past reception without having your picture taken, your Driver's License copied, and your name, DL# and photo on a visitor badge.

This school was a facility with a population several times larger.

Malcolm says

Snopes classifies the claim that banning guns in Australia led to higher crime rates as false.

https://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

Snopes is lying to you in the same way that most gun control proponents lie to you. They are measuring either "gun murder rates" or more disingenuous "gun death rates". From the article "firearm homicides (both suicides and intentional killings) in Australia had dropped significantly".

It's a lie. Go look at the stats yourself.

I believe the anon cf6c6 comment is against the rules as well.

CBOEtrader says

Sure. Idaho has 1.9 murders per 100k, with the 3rd highest rate of gun ownership. Washington DC has 26 murders per 100k. Ask yourself what the difference is between those places.

Then do the same comparison between the US and Australia. (Hint: it's not guns, it's culture.)

Even if you're right-so what? That's not an argument against banning weapons whose sole purpose is mass killing. Or better background checks.

Sniper says

Sandy Hook had the doors locked and Adam Lanza shot his way in.

What if an armed and trained security guard was in the hallway and he knew they were there? Any chance the outcome might have changed when the guard heard him shooting his way in?

There's always a chance, but Adam probably would have chosen to go in a different door then.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Last time I went to a hospital in rural Florida. A few hundred patients, faculty and staff, tops. Obviously, mostly adults.

No getting past reception without having your picture taken, your Driver's License copied, and your name, DL# and photo on a visitor badge.

This school was a facility with a population several times larger.

Does every patient in the hospital enter and exit at the same time every day?

LeonDurham says

Whoa Nelly. Let's back up. Is your position that citizens should have the right to any weapon?

Killing intruders, deer, and target shooting as well.

It's like saying cars should be banned because their only purpose is to run over people.

Yes, deleted a comment that was definitely just dissing other users.

CajunSteve says

Yes, we can spend a zillion dollars and put armed guards at every entrance and exit 24 hours a day, or we can simply make it impossible for mentally deranged kids to get assault weapons.

Yeah, the state can afford tens of thousands of $50k-250k janitors, nurses, admins and Teachers, but the cost of a 3-4 FTE $30k/year security guards at a 3100+ student campus would cost "ZILLIONS!!!"

Yet almost every hospital requires visitors to show ID and wear a photo ID badge these days, any schmuck can drive right onto a K-12 campus and walk in the door without the least interaction with a security obstacle.

"It's UNTHINKABLE to have rudimentary security at a huge school campus. The cost would be ZILLIONS! But we need to hire thousands more $60k/yr teachers! And more $100k consulting programs for our staff for diversity training! And millions on language teachers because dreamers need ENGLISH INSTRUCTION. No cost except Security Guards are TOO EXPENSIVE for our children!!! Ban all guns instead!!!"

What's your plan to restrict firearms from mentally deranged kids, when 39 encounters with LEOs, plus expulsion from public school, said he heard demons in his head, posted promises of violence online, and notification to the FBI of specific threats days prior to the incident, where the kid expressed a specific desire to shoot up a school did not result in any preventative act, such as forcible hospitalization.

"Don't worry, he's on an SSRI! No Mass Murderer has ever been on SSRIs! An SSRI and transfer to an at-risk school was all the intervention needed, Now we must BAN ALL FIREARMS!"

Forget about school shootings, any pervert, or non-custodial parent, etc. could have walked right in the door and nobody would know they were there unless serendipity intervened.

CajunSteve says

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Dumbassery on so many levels.

This is dumbassery Monday Morning Quarterbacking.

Yes, we can spend a zillion dollars and put armed guards at every entrance and exit 24 hours a day, or we can simply make it impossible for mentally deranged kids to get assault weapons.

Mentally ill can't get guns already in many states. The bigger problem is the ban of Christianity in schools, you ban god, you leave it up to the children to figure out their own morality, and they don't all turn into angels like liberal media movies thinks they do.

I 100% blame all of this on liberals, they've banned moral way of life, and this is consequences.

FortWayne says

I 100% blame all of this on liberals, they've banned moral way of life, and this is consequences.

I blame Liberals because they think Nurse Ratched runs every Mental Hospital and nobody should be forcibly hospitalized by the State, until they kill enough people.

FortWayne says

CajunSteve says

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Dumbassery on so many levels.

This is dumbassery Monday Morning Quarterbacking.

Yes, we can spend a zillion dollars and put armed guards at every entrance and exit 24 hours a day, or we can simply make it impossible for mentally deranged kids to get assault weapons.

Mentally ill can't get guns already in many states. The bigger problem is the ban of Christianity in schools, you ban god, you leave it up to the children to figure out their own morality, and they don't all turn into angels like liberal media movies thinks they do.

I 100% blame all of this on liberals, they've banned moral way of life, and this is consequences.

Yup the Founding Fathers hated America when they banned religion from government.

The Christians have been doing Gods Work by shitting on thr Constitution in the biggest SJW hissy fit in all of history, in order to restore sanity by sending gangs of unionized armed simpletons into the homes of innocent Americans to shoot them all dead if there was any chance they might have been medicating with Cannabis.

It’s not as if the Christian Republican Failed War on Drugs hasn’t wasted important LEO time where they could be working with communities to solve actual crimes, rather than working for Big Pharma to secure their profits

Lol- all you talking about needing a security guard when you don't even want to pay for the teachers in the first place how we going to pay for security guards?

TwoScoopsPlissken says

FortWayne says

I 100% blame all of this on liberals, they've banned moral way of life, and this is consequences.

I blame Liberals because they think Nurse Ratched runs every Mental Hospital and nobody should be forcibly hospitalized by the State, until they kill enough people.

I didn't know Reagan was a liberal?

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Yeah, the state can afford tens of thousands of $50k-250k janitors, nurses, admins and Teachers, but the cost of a 3-4 FTE $30k/year security guards at a 3100+ student campus would cost "ZILLIONS!!!"

Actually most states can't really afford it. And if you want a security guard that would be competent, it's going to cost a lot more than $30K/year.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Yet almost every hospital requires visitors to show ID and wear a photo ID badge these days, any schmuck can drive right onto a K-12 campus and walk in the door without the least interaction with a security obstacle.

That's just not true. Please don't misrepresent the truth--it makes solving the problem impossible. Unless you're running for office, it does no good. Pretty much every school is locked during the day.

Hospitals don't have their entire population of patients entering and exiting at the same time, with family members for each coming to visit at exactly the same time every day. It's apples and oranges.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

What's your plan to restrict firearms from mentally deranged kids, when 39 encounters with LEOs, plus expulsion from public school, said he heard demons in his head, posted promises of violence online, and notification to the FBI of specific threats days prior to the incident, where the kid expressed a specific desire to shoot up a school did not result in any preventative act, such as forcible hospitalization.

First off--ban weapons whose sole purpose is mass killing. Second--Anyone taking any medication for mental illness cannot get a gun. Third--require a medical exam for a gun permit. Not to mention tightening up background checks and closing loopholes such as the gun show sales

If you want to have a real discussion about how to stop more of these shootings, I'm game.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Killing intruders, deer, and target shooting as well.

It's like saying cars should be banned because their only purpose is to run over people.

If someone needs an AR-15 to hunt deer, they should probably get a new hobby.

Let's get real here.

Should anti-depressant prescription disqualify you from gun ownership?

The Liberal ignorance, it's astounding!!

LeonDurham says

First off--ban weapons whose sole purpose is mass killing.

Please define "sole purpose". Every weapon made today has multiple purposes.

LeonDurham says

Second--Anyone taking any medication for mental illness cannot get a gun.

So, if someone needs to take medication for a short while trying to get over the depression of losing their wife, they shouldn't be able to own a gun.

LeonDurham says

Third--require a medical exam for a gun permit.

What medical conditions would preclude getting a permit. Who decides what's an applicable medical condition?

LeonDurham says

Not to mention tightening up background checks

What needs to be tightened up? Have you actually read a 4473 form yet?

LeonDurham says

closing loopholes such as the gun show sales

How many of these past mass killers bought their weapon at a gun show?

LeonDurham says

If someone needs an AR-15 to hunt deer, they should probably get a new hobby.

You can't use a AR-15 to hunt deer, it's not powerful enough. An AR-15 shoots a bullet approximately the same size as a 22. There are MANY more powerful rifles used for hunting. AR-15s aren't one of them.

Please educate yourself so you can stop showing such amazing ignorance on this subject matter. Parroting the NON FACTUAL Liberal MSM narrative is really pathetic.

LeonDurham says

Let's get real here.

I truly wish that would happen, these nonsensical posts are embarrasing.

errc says

50 years of unrealized labor potential

A similar calculation could be made about abortion. How about the roughly 44 million lost since 1973, not to mention their potential offspring and the intellectual potential thrown down the drain? How do we know we didn't throw away the cure for cancer somewhere along the way? Frankly, I don't think cancer will ever be cured, there are too many kinds but it is worth pondering.

LeonDurham says

Actually most states can't really afford it. And if you want a security guard that would be competent, it's going to cost a lot more than $30K/year.

Actually, there have been MANY retired LEO's and military veterans who have volunteered (for free) to guard schools, but the Liberal controlled school boards won't allow that.

Also, most school costs are paid on the local level, through taxes.

LeonDurham says

Actually most states can't really afford it. And if you want a security guard that would be competent, it's going to cost a lot more than $30K/year.

Rubbish. How much do you think a Security Guard makes? Say, one at a hospital who mans a desk and issues visitor badges?

LeonDurham says

That's just not true. Please don't misrepresent the truth--it makes solving the problem impossible. Unless you're running for office, it does no good. Pretty much every school is locked during the day.

It was true in this case. What barrier did Cruz encounter that required him to identify himself before proceeding further into the building?

LeonDurham says

Hospitals don't have their entire population of patients entering and exiting at the same time, with family members for each coming to visit at exactly the same time every day. It's apples and oranges.

Not at all. Like I said, go to any private or government office of any size, and they have the bulk of people arriving at 9AM and leaving at 5PM, and yet they still have security checkpoints. Hospitals have shifts also, with a number of employees coming and going at set times, and they tend to discharge patients around the same time each day. Facilities with 3100+ people have badge checks and areas beyond which you cannot proceed, regardless of most of the employees coming or going at the same time.

LeonDurham says

First off--ban weapons whose sole purpose is mass killing. Second--Anyone taking any medication for mental illness cannot get a gun. Third--require a medical exam for a gun permit. Not to mention tightening up background checks and closing loopholes such as the gun show sales

I think we should try having rudimentary security at schools first. The more frequent problem is perverts, non-custodial parents, etc. are far more frequent issues for schools than mass shooters. Having a security checkpoint prevents a host of issues, all without restricting anybody's rights.

It's funny you say a handful of security guards are too expensive, but requiring medical exams or tightened background checks for tens of millions of gunowners wouldn't be. Who is going to look at those medical exams and do more background checks? That's right, more government clerks, who are going to make more than Security Guards would, and won't provide any other security benefits to students.

LeonDurham says

If you want to have a real discussion about how to stop more of these shootings, I'm game.

We are having one. Broward and the Gun Banners are saying a 3100+ campus with a single security guard or checkpoint = "Did everything possible" when it didn't.

There was NO Security

And let's also talk about forcible hospitalization.

39 encounters with LEOs. Expulsion from School for violent behavior. Made death threats. Authorities alerted to social media posts where he proclaimed he'd be a pro school shooter. Bragged about torturing animals.

... and yet he wasn't forcibly hospitalized with these abundant and repeated Major Red Flags.

"Here's an idea; let's not forcibly hospitalize crazy kids who make repeated violent threats and exhibit a litany of red flag behaviors, that would be an imposition on FREEDOM and HUMAN RIGHTS! instead, let's restrict Gun Rights for the entire population."

LeonDurham says

weapons whose sole purpose is mass killing

There are many personal defense scenarios wherein the AK47 is the ideal weapon of defense. That's why its popular.

Id rather have a baby shotgun in my room, but I wake up dreary eyed and don't want to aim.

anon_4480e says

There are many personal defense scenarios wherein the AK47 is the ideal weapon of defense. That's why its popular.

OK, outside of John Wick, please describe those scenarios.

Sniper says

Please define "sole purpose". Every weapon made today has multiple purposes.

OK great. Please describe what one would need an AR-15 where other firearms would not work. Nobody is talking about banning all firearms.

Sniper says

So, if someone needs to take medication for a short while trying to get over the depression of losing their wife, they shouldn't be able to own a gun.

Yes--that is what I think.

Sniper says

What medical conditions would preclude getting a permit. Who decides what's an applicable medical condition?

I don't know--let's discuss and look at the data.

Sniper says

How many of these past mass killers bought their weapon at a gun show?

Who cares? Do you or don't you think gun show sales should follow the same procedures as any other gun sale?

Sniper says

You can't use a AR-15 to hunt deer, it's not powerful enough. An AR-15 shoots a bullet approximately the same size as a 22. There are MANY more powerful rifles used for hunting. AR-15s aren't one of them.

Talk to McGee---he said it was for hunting.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Not at all. Like I said, go to any private or government office of any size, and they have the bulk of people arriving at 9AM and leaving at 5PM, and yet they still have security checkpoints.

And they have automatic badges. Everyone doesn't check in with a security guard.