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2nd Amendment Discussion


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2018 Feb 17, 11:51am   227,819 views  1,230 comments

by CajunSteve   ➕follow (1)   💰tip   ignore  

With all the talk about the school shootings, let's take a look at what the 2nd Amendment actually says:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Couple things to note in there:

1. The specific mention of a militia being the reason for the need to bear arms.
2. The 2nd Amendment never mentions the word gun at all.

So, what exactly is the definition of "arms"?

In 1755 Dr. Johnson’s Dictionary of the English Language was first published. It defined “arms” as “weapons of offence, or armour of defence.”

Weapons of offence would seem to include pretty much anything and everything, from knives to nuclear weapons. The US has already seen fit to ban some weapons of offence so the 2nd Amendment clearly has not been interpreted strictly as meaning that the US cannot ban all "arms". Therefore, the 2nd Amendment does not guarantee citizens the right to own whatever weapons they choose.

So it then becomes a question of which weapons should be banned, which should be strictly regulated, and which should be lightly regulated or not at all. Like anything else, we should weigh an individual's right with society's right. When looked at in that manner, it becomes very difficult to justify why fully automatic or semi automatic rifles should be allowed. What purpose do they serve an individual? And why would that purpose outweigh the extreme damage those weapons have cased society??

Patrick thinks the Chamber of Commerce is the worst organization, and he may be correct, but the NRA is not far behind.



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1188   RWSGFY   2023 Dec 31, 9:27pm  

HeadSet says

Patrick says






Because that rifle was so badly made it could not hit anything that far away.


Really? I never heard anyone badmouthing Carcano M91 rifle in this fashion and "that far" was never more than 90 yards. It's not a hard shot from a standing position with iron sights, let alone from supported position and with a scope. Especially for a US Marine - they do get better marksmanship training than Army guys.
1189   HeadSet   2024 Jan 1, 8:23am  

RWSGFY says

Really? I never heard anyone badmouthing Carcano M91 rifle i

You may be right. I had read an article (I think from a Patnet poster link) that wrote about how that particular rifle could not have been that accurate. As I looked for that article, I can across many more that support your point of view.
1191   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 1, 12:38pm  

Starting today there will
be an additional 11% tax on all guns and ammo sold in Kalifornistan.
1192   FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden   2024 Jan 1, 1:19pm  

RWSGFY says


Starting today there will
be an additional 11% tax on all guns and ammo sold in Kalifornistan.


too many migrants there who put up with government fucking them as long as they can have a job, and too many republicans who “i’m not interested in social issues”. and too many foolish liberals who think guns cause crimes.
1195   NuttBoxer   2024 Jan 5, 7:02am  

Patrick says

but in our world today, break-in and active shooter training should be part of our families' arsenal.


To add some context, that world only exists if you move your family into cities. In the foothills east of San Diego that stuff doesn't happen, and a lot more people have guns. In Arizona we live about 10 miles from the outdoor range, and here just about everything is legal to own. Not against this guys list, but he should really emphasize leaving as the best defense to the nonsense going on in cities today.

Oh yeah, and about half the population of Yuma are active duty Marines. Good luck bad guys...
1198   Reality   2024 Jan 7, 11:42am  

RWSGFY says


Really? I never heard anyone badmouthing Carcano M91 rifle in this fashion and "that far" was never more than 90 yards. It's not a hard shot from a standing position with iron sights, let alone from supported position and with a scope. Especially for a US Marine - they do get better marksmanship training than Army guys.


The distance was significantly more than 90 yards. Even if the street distance is 90 yards, a bullet travelling from 6 stories up (20 yards in height) would travel more than 90 yards. More importantly: bullets do not travel in straight lines but in curves as gravity acts on the bullets. A 22LR bullet leaving the muzzle perfectly level would drop 5-6" at 100 yards distance, 20" or more at 150 yards. That's why iron sights on rifles are adjustable and supposed to set to distance (which is only set up according to level shooting). That's why anyone with any sniper training would try to shoot at near-level to target, so the distance can be optically measured and the sight slider set according to the optical range finder reading (before today's microprocessor and gravity sensor embedded range and deflection calculators mounted directly on the gun, so the barrel to level angle can be calculated instantly and the image shifted for the sniper viewing a LCD display). It was essentially impossible for anyone to shoot from high up in the building down at that distance without firing ranging shots (and tracers in order to see where the bullets land then adjust, "walking" subsequent bullets to target), because the pre-cut range marks on the iron sight would be useless when shooting downwards like that. That's why multiple teams had to be deployed (supposedly nearly half a dozen sniper teams, each consisting of sniper and spotter) and almost all missed. The one finally got JFK was shooting from the flood drain opening under the sidewalk curb immediately next to the stopped limo, i.e. from a distance only a few yards, comparable to the length of the limo itself. That's why decades later the assassination attempt on Reagan was carried out at extremely close distance using a pistol.
1200   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 7, 3:16pm  

Patrick says






Yeah, perfect size to
prevent rape on a date...
1201   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 7, 3:33pm  

Yeah, if the distance between the bulding and the target is 90 yards and the shooter is on 6th floor, this will SIGNIFICANLY INCREASE THE DISTANCE to the target! I mean, the 6th floor is UP THERE IN THE AIR!!!! Like 20 yards high! Which means that the bullet has to travel not 90 yards, but ... gasp! .... 92 yards!!! THIS IS SIGNIFICANT, FOLKS!!!

And and since no Marine could ever be expected to engage enemy at such a significant distance and with such enormous elevation difference, they simply don't train for that! Ever! Now, if bullets traveled in the straight line, there would be hope to hit a human-sized target at such great distance, but they don't!!! Bullets travel in an arch trajectory, which, BTW, makes it posible to shoot around a corner: all you need to do is lay you rifle on its side. 🤡

I'm sorry, but there is nothing hard about that shot. It's actually very trivial for any average shooter, let alone a US Marine with a scoped rifle.

PS. Since we into advanced ballistics now 🤡 that 6.5 Carcano round is known for being rather flat-shooting (not that it mattered anyway).

PPS. When shooting at a vertical angle (no matter up or down) the gun would hit higher. It's not hard to "Kentucky hold" for that. It also might explain the headshot if the shooter was aiming at center-of-mass.
1202   Reality   2024 Jan 7, 4:06pm  

RWSGFY says


And and since no Marine could ever be expected to engage enemy at such a significant distance and with such enormous elevation difference, they simply don't train for that! Ever! Now, if bullets traveled in the straight line, there would be hope to hit a human-sized target at such great distance, but they don't!!! Bullets travel in an arch trajectory, wilhich, BTW, makes it posible to shoot around a corner: all you need to do is lay you rifle on its side. 🤡

I'm sorry, but there is nothing hard about that shot. It's actually very trivial for any average shooter, let alone a US Marine with a scoped rifle.


Typical content-free distraction. Apparently, either your reading comprehension didn't understand the more important point in my previous post, or being either a paid or self-motivated propagandist bent on the cover-up, you'd rather make up nonsense to distract from the inconvenient facts raised. Here, restated for your benefit:

Bullets do not travel in straight lines but in ballistic curves as gravity acts on the bullets. A 22LR bullet leaving the muzzle perfectly level would drop 5-6" at 100 yards distance, 20" or more at 150 yards. That's why iron sights on rifles are adjustable and supposed to set to correct distance marker (which is only marked according to level shooting) before firing. That's why anyone with any sniper training would try to shoot at near-level to target, so the distance can be optically measured and the sight slider set according to the optical range finder reading (before today's microprocessor and gravity sensor embedded range and deflection calculators mounted directly on the gun, so the barrel to level angle can be calculated instantly and the image shifted for the sniper viewing a LCD display). It was essentially impossible for anyone to shoot from high up in the building down at that distance without firing ranging shots (and tracers in order to see where the bullets land then adjust, "walking" subsequent bullets to target), because the pre-cut range marks on the iron sight would be useless when shooting downwards like that. That's why multiple teams had to be deployed (supposedly nearly half a dozen sniper teams, each consisting of sniper and spotter) and almost all missed. The one finally got JFK was shooting from the flood drain opening under the sidewalk curb immediately next to the stopped limo, i.e. from a distance only a few yards, comparable to the length of the limo itself. That's why decades later the assassination attempt on Reagan was carried out at extremely close distance using a pistol.

In order for a marine, or in this case a bunch of Special Ops snipers, to hit a target at significantly downward direction on first shot, the target zone would have to be pre-registered (just like typical beach defense machineguns and direct-fire artillery facing the water downwards). Did Lee Harvey Oswald go to the building day/weeks before the shooting to pre-register his gun and gun-siting? dividing the street and intersection into multiple zones of fire, with corresponding gun positions locked in? The lack of pre-registration (i.e. having already fired into those zones and recorded each correct gun position corresponding to where the bullets/shells would land) was the reason why all those Special Ops snipers failed to hit JFK from various balconies and roof tops 80-200 yards away. It was only the guy in the flood drain opening below the sidewalk curb near the front bumper of the limo, firing within a few yards of JFK that was able to hit him and sent half his brain flying backwards (and why Jackie climbed onto the rear deck of the limo to retrieve her husband's scalp).
1203   Ceffer   2024 Jan 7, 4:17pm  

Reality says


It was only the guy in the flood drain opening below the sidewalk curb near the front bumper of the limo, firing within a few yards of JFK that was able to hit him and set half his brain flying backwards (and why Jackie climbed onto the rear deck of the limo to retrieve her husband's scalp).

That was the scenario they showed in the X Files, when the cigarette smoking man was the assassin in the storm drain.

There is that mafia assassin (James Files) who claims to have delivered the shot from the grassy knoll with a fireball rifle. The only problem with that, he is alive to brag about it. His story about logistics is interesting if one can surmise the truth from the fiction. But, he would have been cancelled a long time ago if he had been the shooter.

However, I suppose they let him live as long as he keeps huffing the disinformation. They are still protecting the identity of the storm drain shooter.
1204   🎂 Bd6r   2024 Jan 7, 4:20pm  

I can hit a chest-sized target pretty well at 100 yards with iron sights in any wind/weather with my k31 and Swedish Mauser, and I am no sharpshooter.
1205   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 7, 4:22pm  

Dude, do you even shoot? You wall of text hinges on "bullets don't travel straight" which somehow in your mind makes a shot at a very mild down angle from a very modest distance "impossible". In fact, it's very easy to compensate for elevation change. Moreover, at the distance we're talking about it might not be even necessary when shooting at a human-sized target. Even if a round aimed at COM hits slightly higher it will still hit the target (in the head - exactly where it hit).

Borrow any surplus rifle, go out and shoot at someting human-sized 100 yards away - it's stoopid easy to hit.
1206   Ceffer   2024 Jan 7, 4:27pm  

" either a paid or self-motivated propagandist bent on the cover-up". It is a besmirch to suggest doing it for free.
1207   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 7, 4:35pm  

Ceffer says


" either a paid or self-motivated propagandist bent on the cover-up". It is a besmirch to suggest doing it for free.


Yeah, somebody trying to gaslight a small board into believing that a 20-degree downhill shot at 90 yards with s scoped battle rifle in the hands of US Marine is somehow "impossible" might be a paid shill, but I doubt anybody would actually pay for that. I mean he could probably persuade the subsection of loonies who believe that ".22LR is the ULTIMATE STOPPER", but the people who actually own and shoot military surplus rifles... LOL
1208   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 7, 5:38pm  

6.5 Carcano sighted at 100yd shooting parallel to the ground:



6.5 Carcano sighted at 100yd shooting 20 degrees down (as if 90 yards out from 20 yards high):



When shooting flat the POI will be 0.17 inch higher than POA and when shooting at 20 dg down the POI will be 0.34 inch higher than POA. Yeah, that 0.17 inch of difference in POI makes the shot on a human-sized target from 6th floor TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

Stupid is strong in this thread.
1209   Reality   2024 Jan 7, 6:25pm  

Bd6r says

I can hit a chest-sized target pretty well at 100 yards with iron sights in any wind/weather with my k31 and Swedish Mauser, and I am no sharpshooter.


So can I, at 100 yards with any good quality rifle (and good quality ammo) with correctly adjusted iron sight, while shooting level! Shooting at targets not at approximately level however changes the situation entirely.
1210   Reality   2024 Jan 7, 7:40pm  

RWSGFY says


6.5 Carcano sighted at 100yd shooting parallel to the ground:



6.5 Carcano sighted at 100yd shooting 20 degrees down (as if 90 yards out from 20 yards high):



When shooting flat the POI will be 0.17 inch higher than POA and when shooting at 20 dg down the POI will be 0.34 inch higher than POA. Yeah, that 0.17 inch of difference in POI makes the shot on a human-sized target from 6th floor TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

Stupid is strong in this thread.


The rifle LHO had was not a long-barrel 77cm (from which the muzzle velocity number you cited), but a short-barrel one; its rear sight was fixed on the gun at 200m (219 yards). Depending on which ballistic calculator you use (and assumptions about the ballistic co-efficient), at 100m the bullet would hit 4.5-7 inches above the point of aim, while shooting level! So if the 2:1 deviation ratio from the two charts you provided holds, that would be 9" to 14" above point of aim when shooting downwards at near the relevant angle. The target was not human-sized but head-sized, and a moving target. The scope on the gun was a cheap 4x18mm designed for a .22 pellet air gun for target shooting at 10-25 meters distance, side-mounted on the rifle (i.e. not even in the same 2D plane as the ballistic curve).
1214   Patrick   2024 Jan 20, 8:35am  

From a forwarded email:


There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms; this number is not disputed. The U.S. population was 324,059,091 as of June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.00925% of the population dies from gun-related actions each year. Statistically speaking, this is insignificant! What is never told, however, is a breakdown of those 30,000 deaths, to put them in perspective, as compared to other causes of death:

65% of those deaths are by suicide, which would never be prevented by gun laws.

15% are by law enforcement in the line of duty, and justified.

17% are through criminal activity, gang and drug related or mentally-ill persons – better known as “gun violence”.

3% are accidental discharge deaths.

So technically, “gun violence” is not 30,000 annually, but drops to 5,100. Still too many?

Now let’s look at how those 5,100 deaths span across the nation.

480 homicides (9.4%) were in Chicago
344 homicides (6.7%) were in Baltimore

333 homicides (6.5%) were in Detroit
119 homicides (2.3%) were in Washington D.C.

So basically, 25% of all gun crime happens in just…4 cities.

All 4 of those cities have strict gun laws, so it is not the lack of gun laws that is the root cause.

This basically leaves 3,825 for the entire rest of the nation, or about 75 deaths per state.

That is an average because some states have much higher rates than others.

For example, California had 1,169 gun-related deaths of all kinds…and Alabama had 1.

Now, who has the strictest gun laws by far? California, of course, but understand, it is not guns causing this.

It is a crime rate spawned by the number of criminal persons residing in those cities and states.

So, if all cities and states are not created equal, then there must be something else causing the gun deaths!

Are 5,100 deaths per year horrific? How about in comparison to other deaths? All death is sad and especially so when it is in the commission of a crime, but that is the nature of crime. Robbery, death, rape, assaults are all done by bad guys.

It is ludicrous to think that criminals will obey laws. That is why they are called…”criminals”.

But what about other deaths each year?

40,000+ die from drug overdoses.

36,000 people die per year from the flu.

34,000 people die per year in traffic fatalities.

More Information:

200,000+ people die each year (and growing) from preventable medical errors. You are safer walking in the worst areas of Chicago than you are when you are in a hospital!

710,000 people die per year from heart disease. So, what is the point? If the liberal loons and the anti-gun movement focused their attention on heart disease, even a 10% decrease in cardiac deaths would save twice the number of lives annually lost from all gun-related deaths.

So, you have to ask yourself, then in the grand scheme of things, why the focus on guns?

It’s pretty simple:

Taking away guns gives control to governments. The founders of this nation knew that regardless of the form of government, those in power may become corrupt and seek to rule as the British did by trying to disarm the populace of the colonies. It is not difficult to understand that a disarmed populace is a controlled populace.

Thus, the second amendment was proudly and boldly included in the U.S. Constitution. It must be preserved at all costs. So, the next time someone tries to tell you that gun control is about saving lives, look at these facts and remember these words from Noah Webster: “Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed.”
1220   Patrick   2024 Jan 31, 8:13am  

https://notthebee.com/article/wow-actor-kurt-russell-smoked-some-woke-anti-gun-hollywood-reporter-in-this-interview




Welp, now all I want to do today is watch Tombstone and Big Trouble in Little China.

Hollywood legend Kurt Russell absolutely smoked this anti-gun, anti-white, woke Hollywood blogger in a resurfaced interview from 2015 when he started talking about guns being a "totem" for "white men."

Listen to Russell dismantle this blogger.

Russell: I don't understand the concept of the conversation of the 'gun culture.' We've lived with guns - what, since the 7th century or something?

Woke dude: We all know right now that guns is a trope ... it's a totem, it's a metaphor that disenfranchised white guys need. It makes them feel good ...

Yeah, he went immediately to anti-gun AND anti-white guys.

Because, you know, the biggest problem with guns in the US is white guys with their buddies at the range. Not the inner cities or anything like that.

Russell: You can say what you want. I don't agree with that. It's not my thing ... If you think that gun control or something like that is going to change a terrorist's point of view I think you're, like, out of your mind. I think you're - I think anybody is. I think it's absolutely insane.

I had no idea Kurt Russell was this based. I knew I liked him, but this makes me like him even more.
The Hollywoke dude then got into the no-fly list and potential terrorists being able to buy guns, and Russell just worked him over again.

Russell: They (terrorists) can also make a bomb pretty easily. They can also get knives and stab you. What are you going to do about that? They can also get car and run you over. What are you gonna do about that? What are you gonna do about that?

Wokie: They didn't kill the people in San Bernandino like that ...

Russell: But they've killed others. So what are you gonna do? Outlaw everything? That ain't the answer. Put some controls? Haha! So the people, so the people who want to defend themselves can't?

Wokie: No! Not so you can't! Just so the idiots can't get ahold of them.

Russell: Do you really believe they're not going to? Are you serious about that? What good will that - ? Oh my g--. You and I just disagree. You and I just disagree. I understand that you think you can control the behavior of people that are dead set on taking your way of life away from you. I think you think you can control that. And there is only one thing you can do with that and that is say, 'No dude, that ain't gonna happen. That's just not gonna happen.'

Then he walked out of the interview!
I'll be honest, it was so refreshing to hear some common sense in this day and age, even if this clip is almost nine years old.

Russell is an absolute boss! Man, we really need more of this in 2024 now that we've survived the era of Trump breaking the establishment's brains, the WuFlu, the Summer of Love, the ongoing border invasion, and more.
1221   Patrick   2024 Feb 5, 10:55am  

https://notthebee.com/article/south-carolina-senate-passes-permitless-carry-law-if-signed-theyll-be-the-27th-state-to-not-require-a-permit-to-carry-a-firearm-


South Carolina Senate passes permitless carry law. If signed they'll be the 28th state to not require a permit to carry a firearm
1222   AD   2024 Feb 11, 8:55pm  

Patrick says

South Carolina Senate passes permitless carry law. If signed they'll be the 28th state to not require a permit to carry a firearm


Unlike Hawaii which is a left wing authoritarian's paradise.

https://www.npr.org/2024/02/09/1230580485/hawaii-high-court-the-wire-gun-rights

.
1223   GNL   2024 Feb 11, 9:13pm  

Patrick says

https://notthebee.com/article/south-carolina-senate-passes-permitless-carry-law-if-signed-theyll-be-the-27th-state-to-not-require-a-permit-to-carry-a-firearm-



South Carolina Senate passes permitless carry law. If signed they'll be the 28th state to not require a permit to carry a firearm


Too bad the article doesn't mention if this includes conceal carry also.

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