patrick.net

I was talking with my wife about this last night and she brought up a good point about a humans right to not be detained. This goes to a bigger issue than illegals, but it's relevant to this topic.

I don't think governments should be able to detain or prevent people from entering a country(this includes passport requirements). It infringes on our God given right to travel freely. Now if the person has been accused of a crime, that's a valid reason to deny entry, or deport someone. But that's the only valid reason.

As to the issue of illegals specifically, as I've mentioned many times, if you don't want illegals in your country, prosecute and jail employers who hire them, don't give them any government aid, medical care, or schooling, unless it's paid for by private organizations who's members agree to help illegals.

They probably bought the children for 50c apiece at an outlet close to the border as immigration tickets. "Buy children, fool Yanks, use them for welfare money then release!"

Feux Follets says

Nary a peep about doing anything to the management, company involved or the like.

And those employees will be on the next coyte transport back unless things have dramatically changed in their home countries. You can't blame someone for trying to better their life.

NuttBoxer says

You can't blame someone for trying to better their life.

Where does it stop? I mean what laws it's OK to violate if one is simply "trying to better his life"? If someone robs a bank and gets a million bucks, this kind of dough will instantly make his life much better. Can we blame this person for trying to better his life?

Feux Follets says

Nary a peep about doing anything to the management, company involved or the like.

Because Democrats refuse to pass E-Verify.

Why do you support a party that is against E-Verify?

NuttBoxer says

And those employees will be on the next coyte transport back unless things have dramatically changed in their home countries. You can't blame someone for trying to better their life.

And these home countries will never get better if everyone flees to the US.

Hassan_Rouhani says

Where does it stop? I mean what laws it's OK to violate if one is simply "trying to better his life"?

If you're a Libertarian, you already know the answer. Traveling to a different country for work is not a crime, it doesn't infringe on anyone else's right to live their lives.

And if the law ever replaces personal morality, then you're screwed no matter what since government is a soul-less machine, not a barometer for judging what is right and wrong.

socal2 says

And these home countries will never get better if everyone flees to the US.

Agreed. But many of these people come from countries the CIA, or our war on drugs, has had a direct had in de-stabilizing. Governments don't give a fuck about the people they hurt, just the power they can grab.

NuttBoxer says

If you're a Libertarian, you already know the answer. Traveling to a different country for work is not a crime, it doesn't infringe on anyone else's right to live their lives.

In truly libertarian world? Maybe. But we don't live in such world. The cost of illegal aliens to every California taxpaying household is well-established and is far from trivial.

NuttBoxer says

Agreed. But many of these people come from countries the CIA, or our war on drugs, has had a direct had in de-stabilizing.

Bah!

It was Marxism that fucked up South and Central America (and Africa, the Middle East and much of the 3rd World) - not America trying to stop it.

Tenpoundbass says

Another Fucked Up Narrative by the Liberal Media.... Do they EVER stop stepping on their own dicks?

DAD: GIRL ON 'TIME' COVER WAS NEVER SEPARATED FROM MOTHER...

The father of the Honduran girl who became the face of the family separation crisis has revealed that he still has not been in touch with his wife or daughter but was happy to learn they are safe.

Denis Javier Varela Hernandez, 32, said that he had not heard from his wife Sandra, 32, who was with his two-year-old daughter Yanela Denise, for nearly three weeks until he saw the image of them being apprehended in Texas.

In an exclusive interview with DailyMail.com, Hernandez, who lives in Puerto Cortes, Honduras, says that he was told yesterday that his wife and child are being detained at a family residential center in Texas but are together and are doing 'fine.'

'You can imagine how I felt when I saw that photo of my daughter. It broke my heart. It's difficult as a father to see that, but I know now that they are not in danger. They are safer now than when they were making that journey to the border,' he said.

Denis said his wife and daughter were never separated by border control agents and remain together.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5869829/Father-two-year-old-face-child-separation-crisis-speaks-out.html

socal2 says

It was Marxism that fucked up South and Central America (and Africa, the Middle East and much of the 3rd World) - not America trying to stop it.

Im perplexed as to why so many people continue to believe in Marxism/socialism/communism in spite of overwhelming evidence that it has never ever succeeded, but always failed miserably.

Hassan_Rouhani says

The cost of illegal aliens to every California taxpaying household is well-established and is far from trivial.

Absolutely, but what's the root cause of that cost? It's not the illegals.

"Hector and Tran are just fumes."

- Sgt Tanner

socal2 says

It was Marxism that fucked up South and Central America (and Africa, the Middle East and much of the 3rd World) - not America trying to stop it.

Most of those countries, including Venezuela are dictatorships. The de-stabilization that put those dictators in power was often triggered by US agents.

NuttBoxer says

Most of those countries, including Venezuela are dictatorships. The de-stabilization that put those dictators in power was often triggered by US agents.

Sorry man, still think Marxism was the biggest destabilizer in South/Central America. We've seen Marxism fuck up much of the 3rd world. Marxism combined with the drug trade (like FARC in Columbia) is dysfunction on steroids.

Venezuela's main backer in Cuba. Cuba was backed by the USSR.....most Marxist countries end up with Totalitarian regimes as Marxism by definition requires a strong central government to force people to go against their common instincts.

socal2 says

Sorry man, still think Marxism was the biggest destabilizer in South/Central America.

Again, I'm asking for examination of root cause. If socialism was organically adapted in these countries, fine. But I'd argue that a large part of the countries, had they been left alone, would not have gravitated towards socialist/dictator regimes. Because of US involvement in destabilizing the region, and resentment toward our country, people were more susceptible to the communist message, and the socialist countries who offered aid, rather than interference.

https://www.geopoliticalmonitor.com/us-interventions-in-latin-american-021/

I say illegals are blow-back for being the US adopting an imperialist stance, much in the way we have manufactured the "War on Terror", by bombing and droning the shit out of the Middle East.

NuttBoxer says

But I'd argue that a large part of the countries, had they been left alone, would not have gravitated towards socialist/dictator regimes. Because of US involvement in destabilizing the region, and resentment toward our country, people were more susceptible to the communist message, and the socialist countries who offered aid, rather than interference.

You have it backwards: US involvement was in response and to counter USSR's push into Latin America.

Hassan_Rouhani says

You have it backwards: US involvement was in response and to counter USSR's push into Latin America.

I forgot to include the link, see my edit. I've never heard of this(Russia attempting to move in), but sounds a lot like the Domino Theory that led to our Vietnam involvement. And we all know how well that worked out...

NuttBoxer says

I've never heard of this(Russia attempting to move in)

LOL. "World Revolution" has been their self-proclaimed goal and they were methodicaly working on overtaking every national liberation movement and making it socialist/communist since 1920s onwards. Made a lot of progress on that road (until economics caught up with the fucks and they were unable to prop up all these regimes around the world). Dismissing something that USSR actually proclaimed as their goal and made a huge progress towards is just denying reality.

NuttBoxer says

Again, I'm asking for examination of root cause. If socialism was organically adapted in these countries, fine. But I'd argue that a large part of the countries, had they been left alone, would not have gravitated towards socialist/dictator regimes.

Left alone by whom? Spain and Portugal were the original and main colonizers of South/Central America. Spain has a long history of pushing Socialism on their former colonies in South America.

The one country where one could argue the US really "meddled" with is Chile - which is now the most free and prosperous country in all of South America.

Hassan_Rouhani says

Dismissing something that USSR actually proclaimed as their goal and made a huge progress towards is just denying reality.

You haven't provided any evidence other than your word. I've provided evidence to support my viewpoint. Unless your God, gonna need more than "Because I say so."

socal2 says

The one country where one could argue the US really "meddled" with is Chile

You obviously missed my link. And apparently also believe the CIA just sits around playing checkers all day on their front porch.

NuttBoxer says

You haven't provided any evidence other than your word. I've provided evidence to support my viewpoint. Unless your God, gonna need more than "Because I say so."

Your own link admits that the CIA was RESPONDING to various Marxist and Communist guerrilla groups and organizations. What more evidence do you need?

After seeing the massive misery and suffering Communism has inflicted all over the planet (Venezuela being the latest example), do you really think America was morally or strategically wrong to try and combat Communism's spread in South/Central America?

socal2 says

do you really think America was morally or strategically wrong to try and combat Communism's spread in South/Central America?

Same question, different location... Vietnam?

socal2 says

Your own link admits that the CIA was RESPONDING to various Marxist and Communist guerrilla groups and organizations. What more evidence do you need?

Just like we did in SE Asia, and look how well those economies are doing!

You're still not really looking at root cause. What was the status of the economy before CIA intervention? After? You can't destabilize a country and call it a move forward. But maybe I'm wrong, and Iraq and Syria are bastions of economic revival since we "liberated" them.

NuttBoxer says

Just like we did in SE Asia, and look how well those economies are doing!

Yes, SK does well only because NK was beaten back. Without US intervention it would be same shit but across the whole Korean Peninsula.

The attempts to re-write history are entertaining. There are still people around who were fucking alive when these things were happening IRL.

Hassan_Rouhani says

Yes, SK does well only because NK was beaten back. Without US intervention it would be same shit but across the whole Korean Peninsula.

And if the US bailed on South Korea in less than 7 years like we bailed in Iraq - the entire Korean peninsula would be a famine shit-show like North Korea. Because all Totalitarian Communist regimes end in misery.

Ditto if we abandoned Taiwan, Philippines, Japan.......

socal2 says

Hassan_Rouhani says

Yes, SK does well only because NK was beaten back. Without US intervention it would be same shit but across the whole Korean Peninsula.

And if the US bailed on South Korea in less than 7 years like we bailed in Iraq - the entire Korean peninsula would be a famine shit-show like North Korea. Because all Totalitarian Communist regimes end in misery.

Ditto if we abandoned Taiwan, Philippines, Japan.......

The attempts to re-write history from the left is amusing. I mean, they could at least wait util people who were alive during these events are all gone and the rest doesn't read anything but Twitter feeds of some "thinkers" a.k.a. comedians.... :rollseye:

NuttBoxer says

You can't destabilize a country and call it a move forward.

Again, this didn't happen in a void. It's not hard for commies to convince uneducated peasants to violently tear down their "bourgeois" neighbors and vilify Capitalists to demand their stuff. History has more than proven that Communism was one of the worst economic/ruling systems in terms of massive human rights abuses, famines, corruption and brutality. It turns brother against brother and brings misery along the way. We knew it back then and we sure as hell know about it now after seeing so many Communist regimes implode.

One of the few South American countries that didn't fall to the Leftists was Chile and it is now one of the most free and prosperous countries in South America.

I think the story of South America is that the US didn't meddle enough and was unable to save a big chunk of the continent from falling for the same dope that many Africans and Asians did in the 1960's and 1970's.

Hassan_Rouhani says

The attempts to re-write history from the left is amusing. I mean, they could at least wait util people who were alive during these events are all gone and the rest doesn't read anything but Twitter feeds of some "thinkers" a.k.a. comedians.... :rollseye:

I don't even think he is a Leftist. Dude is from San Diego so can't be all bad. Just think he is buying too much into the Latino/Leftist narrative that blames the shit-show of Mexico and Central/South America all on the eveeel Capitalist Yankees!

Trump is not deporting millions of illegals, but he's deliberately provoking leftist do-gooders and rubbing their faces in it knowing his base is way beyond caring.

How about being more efficient and actually care about basic humanity?

Heraclitusstudent says

rump is not deporting millions of illegals, but he's deliberately provoking leftist do-gooders and rubbing their faces in it knowing his base is way beyond caring.

"Deliberately provoking"?

You mean enforcing our border laws while the rest of Congress ignores them?

Heraclitusstudent says

How about being more efficient and actually care about basic humanity?

Those are just pointless slogans, "basic humanity" means absolutely nothing.

What policies are you talking about?

Goran_K says

Those are just pointless slogans, "basic humanity" means absolutely nothing.

Like separating children for their mothers. Does it really help anyone? Seriously?
How many more illegals were deported because of this?

Outrage bait: Trump specialty.

Heraclitusstudent says

Goran_K says

Those are just pointless slogans, "basic humanity" means absolutely nothing.

Like separating children for their mothers. Does it really help anyone? Seriously?
How many more illegals were deported because of this?

Outrage bait: Trump specialty.

Many times the "mothers" do not carry IDs, purposefully. One of the oldest tricks when seeking asylum is to "lose" all your identification which makes it harder to send you back. So she could be a child trafficker posing as a parent or she could have abducted the child against the will of the father (and vice versa for fathers). So there are legit reasons to separate them. Furthermore Trump already signed the order not to separate them wherever and whenever possible. I don't think he wanted to provoke in the first place, in fact it was standard policy for many years now.