patrick.net

marcus says

How can JP NOT be talking about exactly you at 12:30 in this video ?

JP is talking about using IQ stats to rationalize their racial superiority complex. You are simply brainwashed into thinking that anyone who rejects SJW idiocy is a racist.

Your comment is an indictment of your own propagandized mind. Frankly I feel sorry for you. You are lost in a biased partisan mindfuck, wherein you reject logical thinking as racist.

Sad

marcus says

I get it that you've been looking desperately through JP videos looking for something you believe he said that he never did, about ethnic group differences in IQ. You're wrong.

You are literally making up your own reality. JP has said over and over again that IQ is directly correlated to racial groups. Do you deny this?

marcus says

Of course we live in a meritocracy and at the level of the individual, IQ is an important factor in success. This is nothing new or particularly profound.

Then what is your beef, and why are you calling people racist for saying the same thing as JP?

CBOEtrader says

You are simply brainwashed into thinking that anyone who rejects SJW idiocy is a racist.

Brilliant. I'm nothing like an SJW. I hate identity politics. What I hate about SJWs is variation on what I hate about so much of what you're saying.

Why the talk about identity groups ? I'm sick of people like you that are so hung up on identity politics.

marcus says

making bad inferences

Your inferences about the inferences of others is a direct result of the lies you buy into. Neither I nor JP are arguing for racial superiority.

Both of us, AKA the rational people, are simply identifying facts and using those facts to discredit the SJW tyranny. If I had my way noone would ever care to discuss IQ levels of cultural groups, since all decisions should be made on the individual level

Unfortunately when the left is using stratification of society as proof of an oppressive patriarchy, we are forced to bring up uncomfortable IQ stats to prove them (and you) wrong.

marcus says

I'm sick of people like you that are so hung up on identity politics.

This is a blatant mischaracterization of everything I believe in. You, sir, are lost in your own brainwashed mind.

This is exact what the SJW tyrants did to James Damore. Stop acting like Nazi's already. It's getting tedious

CBOEtrader says

Then what is your beef, and why are you calling people racist for saying the same thing as JP?

Because you're interpretation is massively racist, and you are unwilling to comprehend why it is. You can look back to previous comments(in other thread) , where I broke it down quote by quote.

Even most conservatives, not even most hard right wing morons believe that it is differences in intelligence due to race that is the reason for under representations of blacks or latinos in the corporate world. Jordan Peterson certainly would not argue this. Get a grip man.

It's funny, but listening to the outright craziness I'm hearing, makes me thingk that the SJWs have a point about "white supremacy culture." (a phrase that I've heard recently and find racist and offensive). But after listening to you, I'm thinking maybe I need to rethink my position.

marcus says

Because you're interpretation is massively racist,

JP's interpretation is racist? You are proving that even #moderateleftists are bigots.

marcus says

You can look back to previous videos, where I broke it down quote by quote.

Lol, you mean where you claim JP doesnt talk about IQ, but instead is talking about competence? Ok, well I posted 1 oh dozens of videos wherein JP discusses racial IQ differences. You are literally making shit up as you go.

marcus says

Jordan Peterson certainly would not argue this. Get a grip man.

JP has been very clear. The most easily identifiable factor in stratification is IQ, and he often mentions conscientiousness. There most certainly will be many other factors that deserve attention. Prejudice deserves to be watched, but using it as a blind model for society is blatantly wrong and always leads to tyranny.

What in this is racist to you? Be very specific

CBOEtrader says

you mean where you claim JP doesnt talk about IQ,

Now you're following Trumps favorite substitute for reasoning, lying. Look back. If you wanted to, I believe you could comprehend what I said. I certainly never said he doesn't talk about IQ, in fact I acknowledged that he does.

marcus says

I'm sick of people like you that are so hung up on identity politics.

This gets back to our original point that there are certain facts you cant tweet, lest the extremists like Marcus censor you.

Take a look in the mirror Marcus. Your ilk is diving our country into factions unnecessarily. It cant end well. Please stop

CBOEtrader says

What in this is racist to you?

I';ve been as clear as I can be. If you want to understand my position you do not you only need to go back, and in a focused and sober state, reread this conversation (in other thread).

I repeat (and I'm done):


marcus says

Even most conservatives, not even most hard right wing morons believe that it is differences in intelligence due to race that is the reason for under representations of blacks or latinos in the corporate world. Jordan Peterson certainly would not argue this and never has.

IF you don't think that is more or less what you are arguing that JP has implied, then I can't help you.

If you still think it is what he implies, I also can't help you, but I guarantee you can't find a video where he implies that.

marcus says

CBOEtrader says

when in fact differences of success are largely explained by IQ differences. He has been very clear about this many, many times. Please explain what you feel is missing in this perspective

Actually he uses the word competence, which is not the same as IQ.

Do you read what you write or no?

marcus says

CBOEtrader says

you mean where you claim JP doesnt talk about IQ,

Now you're following Trumps favorite substitute for reasoning, lying. Look back.

This is where you admit you either misstated your opinion, or just forgot what you wrote. JP mentions IQ as "the best predictor of success by a factor of 10" over and over and over again.

Do you even JP, bro?

CBOEtrader says

What in this is racist to you?

I';ve been as clear as I can be. If you want to understand my position (you do not) you only need to go back, and in a focused and sober state, reread this conversation.

I repeat (and I'm done):


marcus says

Even most conservatives, not even most hard right wing morons believe that it is differences in intelligence due to race that is the reason for under representations of blacks or latinos in the corporate world. Jordan Peterson certainly would not argue this and never has.

IF you don't think that is more or less what you are arguing that JP has implied, then I can't help you.

If you still think it is what he implies, I also can't help you, but I guarantee you can't find a video where he implies that.

marcus says

I repeat (and I'm done):


marcus says

Even most conservatives, not even most hard right wing morons believe that it is differences in intelligence due to race that is the reason for under representations of blacks or latinos in the corporate world. Jordan Peterson certainly would not argue this. Get a grip man.

This is blatantly wrong about both myself and JP as it was the first time.

Go watch the video again, or look up any number of other videos. JP is very clear in his position. 1) IQ is heritable and undeniably different amongst cultural groups. (Note: I am using the word "cultural" over "race" because as JP points out, race is almost impossible to define.) 2) IQ is the best predictor of economic success we have. 3) SJW's who blame stratification variations amongst cultural groups to racism, are simply displaying uneducated childlike ideology. 4) SJW ideology of forced equality of outcomes will naturally lead to death and the worst humankind has to offer.

Please tell us where you disagree.

Marcus, thanks for proving that #moderateleftists are also extremists who cant handle free speech.

As disheartening as this may be, at least those of us who value individual freedom know what we're up against.

OH, okay, you win. You're right, I really embarrassed myself here.

marcus says

OH, okay, you win. You're right, I really embarrassed myself here.

Agreed.

Calling facts racist is embarrassing.

I was being sarcastic. I get it though. Being called out on racism is likely to lead to a lot of back pedaling and lying.

To be clear though, the video above is you're best evidence of your point of view, right ?

I've watched a lot of Jordan Peterson videos, and yes, he has a fairly smal number of times talked about IQ, but I don't believe it was ever with the intent of implying racial differences in IQ. The other guy brought it up in the video you found. I know it couldn't have been easy to find.

And I see you've substantially changed you thesis:


CBOEtrader says

1) IQ is heritable and undeniably different amongst cultural groups. (Note: I am using the word "cultural" over "race" because as JP points out, race is almost impossible to define.) 2) IQ is the best predictor of economic success we have. 3) SJW's who blame stratophication variations amongst cultural groups to racism, are simply displaying uneducated childlike ideology. 4) SJW ideology of forced equality of outcomes will naturally lead to death and the worst humankind has to offer.

YOu're getting closer to being reasonable.

1) is wrong. ALmost always when he talks about IQ it is not tied to any implication about ethnic groups.

2) yes he has said that IQ is one of the best predictors of success. I can't help but wonder whether you understand that this says nothing about how good a predictor it is. Only that it's one of the best. Also, he's talking about at the level of the individual.

3) doesn't make sense.

4) not too far off.

SJW's aren't even now making strong arguments for equality of outcome. There's affirmative action which is not on the increase, over all. And I don't know how much of that is generated from grass roots SJWs. It's more the emphasis on identity groups that is the problems JP argues against, and that the post modernist emphasis on everything being about group power is a precursor to further and more dangerous movement towards government pressures toward equality of outcome which would be disastrous. That's what he's worried about.

I said I was done before, and I need to be. YOu've done a lot of lying to me and to yourself in this discussion, but it's understandable. You were called out on your racism.

Just one random observation of something disturbing (there were so many), can you tell me where this comes from ? I find it very hard to believe that the part in quotes is connected to him saying what you preceded it with. Can you tel me where it comes from. Can you ackknowledge that it is as dishonest as I think it is ?


CBOEtrader says

IQ does, however, predict stratification of society, and IQ is very correlated to racial groups. "I dont have a solution to that, but at least I can point out the problem." -JP Pointing out the problem is the first step towards helping people.

marcus says

I was being sarcastic.

Lol, yes I was playing along.marcus says

Being called out on racism is likely to lead to a lot of back pedaling and lying.

You are displaying your bigotry here. Very weak.

marcus says

To be clear though, the video above is you're best evidence of your point of view, right ?

It's not my point of view in question. The video I posted is one of dozens of examples of JP discussing race and IQ.

marcus says

I've watched a lot of Jordan Peterson videos, and yes, he has a fairly smal number of times talked about IQ, but I don't believe it was ever with the intent of implying racial differences in IQ.

Wrong. This is proof you haven't watched JP videos in full. Find me a single clip of JP discussing IQ in regards to success wherein he doesnt bring up his Jewish example. Im not doubting its there, but he usually brings up the Jewish question. He is very careful not to point out the less than average IQ minority groups himself, choosing instead to discuss Jews so that he can have a positive example AND because of the historical significance. "The Jewish Question" is also identical to the thought process of todays SJW's. The success = oppression meme should have died w Hitler. Apparently people like yourself are keeping this tyrannical concept alive and well. Congrats.

marcus says

YOu're getting closer to being reasonable.

My interpretation of JP has been consistent. Yours is the slippery reality. "JP doesnt discuss IQ" LOLZ. "OK maybe he does discuss IQ but only on an individual level." LOLZ. Cant wait to see how your reality unfolds next. When you want to embrace facts, I'll be here waiting.

marcus says

1) is wrong. ALmost always when he talks about IQ it is not tied to any implication about ethnic groups

Heres where you start to play w weasel wording and conflate issues. JP almost always brings up the Jewish example along w IQ. Lets clarify, are you saying there is no difference amongst races in IQ, or simply that JP doesnt discuss IQ and race? Both are easily and provably wrong, I'm just asking you which error should I address?

marcus says

I can't help but wonder whether you understand that this says nothing about how good a predictor it is. Only that it's one of the best.

Heres where your bigotry is showing again. You literally haven't even listened to JP talk, then assume that I am making up figures. Amazing. If you take the time to listen to him speak, he tells you matter of factly how good of a predictor it is. He gives specific numbers suggesting 15% of success is determined by IQ, which is more than enough to tip the scales amongst large groups of higher IQ individuals.

marcus says

Also, he's talking about at the level of the individual.

Again, you prove you haven't listened to him speak at all. Go back and listen to him before pretending that you understand what hes saying. Listen carefully to him explain that Jews have a one st dev higher IQ, which naturally results in enormously higher representation in positions of power and intellectual competence. He also often points out that a 60:40 difference in average aggression in males vs females (a small difference at the average) results in 95% of prison inmates being men. The same representation within highly competent positions would be expected from small differences in average IQ amongst groups.

marcus says

3) doesn't make sense.

You've already shown your bigotry of others and unwillingness to even hear statements made by JP that contradict your bigotry, so this reaction makes perfect sense. FYI: try listening to JP before discussing him.

I'm not sure how more wrong you can be about this. If your response is "that's racist" forgive rational people for assuming all leftists have gone insane.

marcus says

there are differences in averages IQ for ethnic groups which btw would be very hard to show (how do you sample to account for differences in socioeconomic, cultural, school background, etc? People get widely varying

No they are easy to show and you don't account for anything for the raw measurement. That's the typical leftoids bs. Many of the believed (not proven) circumstancial causes are the responsibility of the individual group you're looking at and comparing. It's a feedback and chicken and hen problem. But even if you think you discovered an outside factor that may not be their fault you start working towards changing it after you acknowledge the significant raw difference measured in IQ. Take off the PC glasses.

Nature is racist.

CBOEtrader says

marcus says

I can't help but wonder whether you understand that this says nothing about how good a predictor it is. Only that it's one of the best.

Heres where your bigotry is showing again. You literally haven't even listened to JP talk, then assume that I am making up figures. Amazing. If you take the time to listen to him speak, he tells you matter of factly how good of a predictor it is. He gives specific numbers suggesting 15% of success is determined by IQ, which is more than enough to tip the scales amongst large groups of higher IQ individuals.

Actually I only questioned whether you understand that being the best predictor doesn't mean it's that good of a predictor. You're proving me right (15%) while lecturing me on how I suppoedy haven't listened that much to Jordan Peterson.

Look I get it, in the past day or so you have listened to everything that comes up on searches on google or youtube related to Jordan Peterson and IQ. Because you're obviously triggered. The truth is that even with these several recent hours you've put in to listening to him, is a small fraction of what I have - but that's totally irrelevant and beside the point.

Even the title of this thread is dishonest, becasue differences in IQ by ethnic group was never a major point Jordan Peterson stresses. . Why would it be ? He's a really smart guy.

To argue with SJWs that claim that difficulties minority individuals have competing in the job market, are not about too much power in the hands of "white supremacy culture" or "the patriarchy," one would need only to argue the benefits of a meritocracy where success in "competence hierarchies" are based simply on competence. This leads to success in getting things done. It does not require accepting that the real difficulty for minority individuals is that said minority groups have lower average IQ. In fact that would be dishonest and counter productive

SJWs need to accept It's not about too much power being in the hands of white males (the patriarchy). But they don't need to accept and should not be accepting that historical difficulties of minority individuals competing are related to small differences in average IQ ( differences Peterson acknowledges may not even exist).

I noticed you didn't address the dishonesty in the line (quoted below) of the OP which I asked about at the end of my last comment. Please point me to where Jordan Peterson says this second sentence in connection to the first as implied by you. Or for that matter where he ever says the first sentence.

marcus says

CBOEtrader says

IQ does, however, predict stratification of society, and IQ is very correlated to racial groups. "I dont have a solution to that, but at least I can point out the problem." -JP Pointing out the problem is the first step towards helping people.

A conversation like this could only happen in today's racist, ignorant climate. There are differences when it comes to ethnicity, most notably average dick size, how quickly you sunburn, and certain athletic capabilities. But that's pretty much where it ends. I'm guessing that if Jordan had correlated economic status with his IQ findings, his primary driver would no longer be ethnicity.

When the fuck will people start focusing on anything OTHER THAN race?

NuttBoxer says

I'm guessing that if Jordan had correlated economic status with his IQ findings, his primary driver would no longer be ethnicity.

It never was.

NuttBoxer says

When the fuck will people start focusing on anything OTHER THAN race?

Agreed. IT exists mostly at the political extremes.

I wouldn't have engaged to this extent but for the dishonest representation of Jordan Peterson.

NuttBoxer says

A conversation like this could only happen in today's racist, ignorant climate. There are differences when it comes to ethnicity, most notably average dick size, how quickly you sunburn, and certain athletic capabilities. But that's pretty much where it ends. I'm guessing that if Jordan had correlated economic status with his IQ findings, his primary driver would no longer be ethnicity.

When the fuck will people start focusing on anything OTHER THAN race?

marcus says

NuttBoxer says

I'm guessing that if Jordan had correlated economic status with his IQ findings, his primary driver would no longer be ethnicity.

It never was.

NuttBoxer says

When the fuck will people start focusing on anything OTHER THAN race?

Agreed. IT exists mostly at the political extremes.

I wouldn't have engaged to this extent but for the dishonest representation of Jordan Peterson.

You are missing the point, the differences in IQ are clearly proven. Now, any test is imperfect and so will be the end results, but if you accept current IQ standard tests the differences are there and significant enough to be noted but not necessarily for predicting outcome or behavior. Ashkenazi Jews score higher than whites, even Asians score slightly higher, and blacks score the lowest. On average. Whether these differences are enough to predict outcomes and differences in social status, money and more is absolutely questionable and that's why there is not much focus on it as a predictor or explanation as it is believed not to be significant enough at the moment to predict outcome/behavior. Also the causes appear to be many different ones, but genetics is definitely one of them.

That's what geneticists do. They focus on race. That's their fucking job. But that has nothing to do with the lefts constant race-baiting and stoking race-hate where none existed before. They are the real racists.

mell says

You are missing the point, the differences in IQ are clearly proven.

I shouldn't have to re-state this, but I will. At what point in the individuals life is the test being administered? I seriously doubt it's before they start their government or private education, and right there, without race ever being a factor, one group is given an incredible advantage. Economics are FAR more important to IQ than race.

NuttBoxer says

mell says

You are missing the point, the differences in IQ are clearly proven.

I shouldn't have to re-state this, but I will. At what point in the individuals life is the test being administered? I seriously doubt it's before they start their government or private education, and right there, without race ever being a factor, one group is given an incredible advantage. Economics are FAR more important to IQ than race.

That may be true, however there is also a possible feedback loop. If you focus on the US only you could postulate that the difference in social and economic status and thus better access to education for one group is a main driver and thus the test is not "fair". However we have tons of programs directed at helping the poorer and even laws that discriminate against those that score better (affirmative action), yet not much progress is being made and often a toxic culture (high single-motherhood, absence of fathers, crime etc.) remains. Actually the Wikipedia entry on this is pretty decent and balanced read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

I have no problems accepting that Ashkenazi Jews and many Asians score higher on average than my genetic lineage does, and I am not blaming any economic or social factors for it. It is what it is, it's not highly important to me, but I have no reason to attack it.

marcus says

You're proving me right (15%) while lecturing me on how I suppoedy haven't listened that much to Jordan Peterson.

proof that you dont understand statistics, which btw is the exact problem that JP suggests leads most people to the incorrect patriarchy conclusion.

marcus says

Look I get it, in the past day or so you have listened to everything that comes up on searches on google or youtube related to Jordan Peterson and IQ.

Wrong again...and you dont get it. I've proven your statements wrong time and again. Or do you still believe JP doesnt discuss IQ just competence? Or how about your backtracked claim that JP only discusses IQ as it pertains to individuals? Both probably false, but I guess listening to a 6 minute video would be too much research for you.

If you cant admit when you are blatantly wrong then why even have a discussion?

marcus says

becasue differences in IQ by ethnic group was never a major point Jordan Peterson stresses. . Why would it be ? He's a really smart guy.

Fighting back against SJW/progressive tyranny is hone of his major points. He uses the "Jewish Question" IQ discussion to point out that differences of outcome, even if they are extreme at the tails DOES NOT equal a white racist patriarchy.

CBOEtrader says

Or do you still believe JP doesnt discuss IQ just competence?

I never believed this. You're lying. Here I'll try to go back to the very beginning of this. Sheesh.

Okay, here it is, what I believe is my very my first comment on this "discussion," #99 in another thread.

http://patrick.net/post/1317991?80#comment-1525222

Maybe if I hadn't included the last sentence, you could have just agreed with me (not that I don't stand by it as true).

marcus says

You totally misunderstand what JP has said. HE never said anything close to that. He has talked about IQ differences, which are different on average but at the level of selected individuals it's irrelevant. Further more there are other factors I won't go in to that make it difficult to get representative scores for entire races, while controlling for educational differences.

Peterson is opposed to going for equality of outcome. But he never said: "it is imperative to discuss differences in IQ levels that drive those results rather than blaming white patriarchy." He's simply opposed to blaming white patriarchy as oppressive, and argues that meritocracy works and is what people are conflating with Patriarchy. He also sometimes talks about how if someone has an IQ of 80 or lower(perhaps the border he cites is lower), it's really going to be hard for them to make a living. If anything this is an argument for safety nets, which he is not opposed to.

Yes, later I talked about competence being more relevant than IQ in one specific context, becasue if you weren't only searching for JP discussions on IQ you would know how often he talks about hierarchies and competence hierarchies specifically.

marcus says

Yes, later I talked about competence being more relavant than IQ in a specific context, becasue if you weren't only searching for discussions on IQ you would know how often he talks about hierachys and competence hierarchies specifically.

JP does somewhat use IQ and competence interchangably. He often describes competence as a combination of IQ and conscientiousness. IQ and conscientiousness can be measured, whereas competence is less statistically defined.

I believe I have found the core of our disagreement however.

marcus says

Peterson is opposed to going for equality of outcome. But he never said: "it is imperative to discuss differences in IQ levels that drive those results rather than blaming white patriarchy."

JP absolutely has said this, albeit in his own words. You quoting my patrick.net forum comment and saying "he never said this" is disingenuous. JP will ne far more careful w his words than myself. That's why JP is our champion, and I'm just some schmuck in a forum.

CBOEtrader says

I believe I have found the core of our disagreement however.

Very good !!

Good job !!!

I also made it clear with this repeated at least once.

marcus says

Even most conservatives, not even most hard right wing morons believe that it is differences in intelligence due to race that is the reason for under representations of blacks or latinos in the corporate world. Jordan Peterson certainly would not argue this.

marcus says

I also made it clear with this repeated at least once.

marcus says

Even most conservatives, not even most hard right wing morons believe that it is differences in intelligence due to race that is the reason for under representations of blacks or latinos in the corporate world. Jordan Peterson certainly would not argue this.

Your ad hums and cheap smears against me doesnt make your statement any less wrong. (Dear admins, I feel like Marcus and I are both being liberal w the rules in this convo so should we thunderdome this thread?)

Let's unpack your innacuracues. You suggest that noone "believes that it is differences in intelligence due to race that is the reason for under representations of blacks or latinos in the corporate world. "
Nothing is THE reason. IQ is the most predictive factor. You are ignoring nuance so-as to disregard these uncomfortable truths. JP said "IQ is the best factor for predicting success that we've found by a fa tor of 10". Then he brings up Ashkenazi Jews, who are overrepresented in positions of competence by many, many times their ratio of the population. JP doesnt often point out the groups with lower than average IQ, but he confirms that the academic research is undeniable (watch the video again if you dont believe me).

Let's go slow here...if groups w higher average IQ are overrepresented in highly competent positions, what conclusion can we draw about lower IQ groups?

FYI, the original conversation was about the need for a 1st amendment protections. I pointed out that facts will get you banned, which is unfortunate in that it prevents us from helping the exact people you pretend to support.

Do you think this kid should be labelled a racist? Or should you let him research his project? https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article199440204.html

Do you think it's fair that Asian students have to score 200 points higher on sats to get into the same elite college as a black?

These are important questions that need to be discussed, and require an iron clad 1st amendment.

The title of this thread:

CBOEtrader says

Jordan Peterson pointing out "irremediable and biological" ethnic IQ differences, and why Marcus is wrong

Is quoting that title a smear ?

CBOEtrader says

should we thunderdome this thread?

Even that title has got to be seriously embarrassing for you.

I asked a couple times for you to show me where in a Peterson video does he say the first sentence here. When you follow it with a quote as you do (the second sentence) , it implies that the previous sentence is not entirely your words.

CBOEtrader says

IQ does, however, predict stratification of society, and IQ is very correlated to racial groups. "I dont have a solution to that, but at least I can point out the problem." -JP Pointing out the problem is the first step towards helping people.

By the way, the statement "IQ is very correlated to racial groups" doesn't even make sense.You can only have a correlation between two numerical variables.