patrick.net

marcus says

I asked a couple times for you to show me where in a Peterson video does he say the first sentence here. When you follow it with a quote as you do (the second sentence) , it implies that the previous sentence is not entirely your words.

Did you watch the video? My first sentence is a summary of their discussion. I believe the second was a direct quote, but ill have to go listen again to be sure.

Again, your only response is HE ISNT SAYING THAT. Well...ok, what do you think he is saying when he points out the Jewish Question IQ example? What do YOU think he saying when he agrees that different groups have different IQ levels, which he describes as heritable and irremediable?

JP says "Differences in [average] gender IQ is trivial. There are differences amongst ethnicities which dont look trivial."

Then he discusses his Jewish IQ question, pointing out that a 15 point average advantage means an enormous over representation amongst geniuses.

You are correct in that he doesnt specifically discuss american blacks having a 15 point disadvantage, and the natural conclusion you can make from this in a logical world. As you point out, this should be an irrelevant fact if we simply choose individuals on their own merits.

Unfortunately the cult of diversity want to force equality of representation in groups. ^^ this is the first reason why it's important to discuss racial IQ differences.

More fundamentally though, lower IQ problems could be fixed. If studied and analyzed, I bet we could narrow that gap and help lower IQ groups immensely. We will never know if everyone who brings it up is called a racist. Congrats on oppressing blacks Marcus:)

marcus says

The title of this thread:

CBOEtrader says

Jordan Peterson pointing out "irremediable and biological" ethnic IQ differences, and why Marcus is wrong

Changed it. But the point of calling you out was to specifically discuss JP's work, as we had a disagreement about his meaning.

CBOEtrader says

I bet we could narrow that gap and help lower IQ groups immensely

One would think, yes, becasue a group is nothing more than a collection of individuals and as noted IQ is heritable.

It seems like cultures (i.e. groups) that place a super high priority on intelligence and the types of competence that lead to success in school and the the job market, in mating decisions., that is the mates that females select, and the hierarchies males in the group compete in for mates, may have a huge impact on average higher IQ in their respective populations becasue of that. If a poorer performing group (say inner city blacks) somehow had a radical change in beliefs and priorities for mate selection, how many generations do you think it would take to bring IQ averages to parity with other groups ? (In my opinion less than 5 maybe just two or three)

So how might institutional policies facilitate such change in group beliefs ? Wouldn't there first need to be enough middle class role models in the group showing the others in the group what "winners" look like ?

To truly understand all these questions is to gain insight in to the reasoning behind affirmative action (which I have mixed opinions about - it depends on the situation).

To be adamantly opposed to all forms of affirmative action, and college quotas etc., is in my opinion tantamount to wanting to make more difficult the progress toward undoing inequality which has come about for many reasons, some of the reasons being independent of biology and more about past prejudices and policies that only served to worsen inequality.

marcus says

how many generations do you think it would take to bring IQ averages to parity with other groups ?

I would guess it could happen within 3 to 5 generations.

marcus says

Wouldn't there first need to be enough middle class role models in the group showing the others in the group what "winners" look like ?

Group is too ambiguous. Will Smith's rich kids should never get favorable treatment to Stanford over an Asian immigrant's children.

I wouldnt have a problem w economic or life difficulty based preferential treatment for college admissions. For example, I saw one of those social media shorts wherein a kid self educated on khan academy and immigrated to the US w no family. Would anyone have a problem giving this kid an SAT fudge factor? Allowing Will Smith's kids a spot over a middle class, second generation Asian american kid is grossly unfair to the asian kid.

I have a huge problem w Macron hiring half women for his cabinet, when only about 20% of the candidate pool is women. IMO, gender/race/genitals should never be a part of an employment application (unless those traits are required to do the job).

CBOEtrader says

I would guess it could happen within 3 to 5 generations.

We agree - I added an opinion to the same effect before reading this. Then you should be more understanding of affirmative action and policies getting more blacks and latinos in to colleges.

CBOEtrader says

I have a huge problem w Macron hiring half women for his cabinet, when only about 20% of the candidate pool is women. IMO, gender/race/genitals should never be a part of an employment application (unless those traits are required to do the job).

Yeah it's stupid. Political. I don't want to see anti-white or anti male prejudice in the the future any more than you do

CBOEtrader says

I would guess it could happen within 3 to 5 generations.

By the way, this contradicts your title for this thread. It's cultural and economic, and not biologically racial, or ethnic, at least not to an extent that's significant.

marcus says

CBOEtrader says

I would guess it could happen within 3 to 5 generations.

By the way, this contradicts your title for this thread. It's cultural and economic, and not biologically racial, or ethnic, at least not to an extent that's significant.

I dont know if science can say how much is nurture vs nature. I'd suggest that better nurture over 3 to 5 generations should improve both the nurture and the nature aspect of the equation.

The reverse is also true. I went to Washington and Lee University in the blue ridge mountains of virginia.

After 150 years of mountain living, some hillbilly local communities all have the same problems as the inner city poor, just with more space between them. These are Scottish/irish decent hillbillies. Meanwhile their cousins who moved away are thriving. The local test scores are garbage, many struggling w proper English. If one of them moves to the bug city, they are normal within 1 generation of decent schools.

And the correlation with shit hole countries is.....?

mell says

If you focus on the US only you could postulate that the difference in social and economic status and thus better access to education for one group is a main driver and thus the test is not "fair". However we have tons of programs directed at helping the poorer and even laws that discriminate against those that score better (affirmative action), yet not much progress is being made and often a toxic culture (high single-motherhood, absence of fathers, crime etc.) remains.

True, I was definitely thinking only in the scope of Americans. As far as programs helping out, that's only true if the program is local(neighborhood). Government programs lack the compassion, accountability, and oversight to be helpful. There are a few who will use them to make their lives better, but they are designed to create dependence, not to improve anyone's status.

mell says

I have no problems accepting that Ashkenazi Jews and many Asians score higher on average than my genetic lineage does

That I think is a point worth considering, but from the perspective of cultural values, not race. You may think I'm being picky, but race and genetics cannot be changed, where cultural values can grow and shift over time. The latter allows that anyone from any race can be intelligent, while the former pigeon holes someone, unfairly, because of something they cannot change. From a cultural perspective, I think it is also important to consider size and how homogeneous the group is. Large groups that allow for more diversity, tend to lose their cultural traits as they mix with people of different backgrounds. Again, is any of this taken into consideration with these studies?