patrick.net

I'm hoping we get more than trolls and snowflakes responding.

We want logical, anti-trump arguments. Not word salad trump = deplorable idiocy.

I think part of the cause for the insane levels of hate for Trump is that by all objective evidence, he's actually doing a great job.

The way he talks about himself he has to be the most pompous president we have ever had. He sometimes sounds so retarded as if he was a child but then says something that is so on the mark, he is like the Rain Man of public speaking.

This is easy.

The tax cut was a complete disaster that will cause a HUGE increase in the budget deficit and national debt. Very little of the corporate tax cut savings went to employees, instead it spurred a huge increase in corporate buybacks and executive bonuses.

His lying is unprecedented. Here's his most recent rally:

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1048725765980872704

Lies:
1. Underreports number of protesters
2. Lies about what Dems want. (very similar to what I see on pat.net ad nauseum)
3. Lies that wages are rising for the first time in 19 years. (how ridiculous is that statement. and how ridiculous is it that his supporters believe it)
4. Lies about size of trade deficit with China
5. Lies about the Medicare for all plan
6. Complete makes up a fictional bill that he says all Dems have signed onto, written by Diane Feinstein.
7. Lies about wanting to protect pre-existing conditions.
8. Lies calling US the fastest developing country in the world.
9. Lies and makes up story that he claims Blumenthal told
10. Lies and claims US is respected "again". World leaders literally laughed at him during his last speech.
11. Lies that the last military budget was a record.
12. Lies that Obama was about to go to war with N. Korea.
13. Lies that the new embassy in Jerusalem was built for $400K. (the cost will be greater than $21MM)

There's more, but that's enough for now. And remember, that's from 1 night. 1 rally.

This is the best case for Nationalism,

RC2006 says

The way he talks about himself he has to be the most pompous president we have ever had. He sometimes sounds so retarded as if he was a child but then says something that is so on the mark, he is like the Rain Man of public speaking.

Lol, this is true. It's like half of his brain is an idiot and the other half is a genius.

LeonDurham says

Lies:
1. Underreports number of protesters
2. Lies about what Dems want. (very similar to what I see on pat.net ad nauseum)
3. Lies that wages are rising for the first time in 19 years. (how ridiculous is that statement. and how ridiculous is it that his supporters believe it)
4. Lies about size of trade deficit with China
5. Lies about the Medicare for all plan
6. Complete makes up a fictional bill that he says all Dems have signed onto, written by Diane Feinstein.
7. Lies about wanting to protect pre-existing conditions.
8. Lies calling US the fastest developing country in the world.
9. Lies and makes up story that he claims Blumenthal told
10. Lies and claims US is respected "again". World leaders literally laughed at him during his last speech.
11. Lies that the last military budget was a record.
12. Lies that Obama was about to go to war with N. Korea.
13. Lies that the new embassy in Jerusalem was built for $400K. (the cost...

Are we better off now, compared to 2 years ago?
Yes. Extremely better off:
Lowest unemployment in 50 years
Highest net worth ever.
Stock market at record highs.
North Korea bending over.
Iran cornered.
Islam getting slapped around.
---
And you are concerned over unimportant things he says.

Strategist says

Are we better off now, compared to 2 years ago?
Yes. Extremely better off:
Lowest unemployment in 50 years
Highest net worth ever.
Stock market at record highs.
North Korea bending over.
Iran cornered.
Islam getting slapped around.
---
And you are concerned over unimportant things he says.

I'm concerned about the budget deficit and national debt. I know Republicans only care about those things when a Dem is President, but I consider them important.

The unemployment and stock market have continued the same trend since 2012. Real wages are still stagnant.

North Korea is on record saying they are NOT dismantling any nuclear facilities. They are playing Trump, same as Mexico and Canada did with the new NAFTA. Trump caved, like he always does. The world knows his game now--he talks big and carries a tiny stick. All any country has to do is ignore his talk and stand firm because it's well known he'll fold.

Strategist says

Are we better off now, compared to 2 years ago?
Yes. Extremely better off:
Lowest unemployment in 50 years
Highest net worth ever.
Stock market at record highs.
North Korea bending over.
Iran cornered.
Islam getting slapped around.

You guys and your fantasies are something.

The improvements in the economy are minor compared to the cost in deficit increases. Because the unemployemtn rate was already low, and the stock market was 80% of the way in to this record long bull market. As for north Korea. It was PR, and a very scary game. Trump now literally exchanges love letter with Kim. Impressed I am not. Good deal with Iran destroyed.

Environmental protection ? Investment in infrastructure ?

Health care ?

I only see losing, with the exception of an strong economy, creating more low paying service jobs than can be filled. And Trump doing everything he possibly can to cause inflation. Btw, strong economy is when a decent leader brings deficits down, not goosing the hell out of deficits to pay for more gated communities.

You have to know worker pay won't keep up.

It would be funny if it weren't such a strong signal of how fucked we are. That is, the degree to which you believe all the lies. You so desperately want to believe that Donald Trump in charge was a wise move.

LeonDurham says

There's more, but that's enough for now. And remember, that's from 1 night. 1 rally.

please post a quote and your reaction to it. a list of lies with no example of what you are talking about doesnt help.

marcus says

I only see losing

which specific example do you want to discuss?

NKA was brilliantly played by Trump, far better than any president of the past. Also, your definition of a "good deal" with Iran sounds a lot like CNN propaganda. We are in a better place with both deals.

marcus says

Health care ?

Our health insurance situation is in a far better spot and improving. FYI: this is not unnoticed by blue collar workers. I sell insurance (including Obamacare) to the daily. Overwhelming majority of working class people love the new Trump healthcare options.

CBOEtrader says

NKA was brilliantly played by Trump, far better than any president of the past. Also, your definition of a "good deal" with Iran sounds a lot like CNN propaganda. We are in a better place with both deals.

How do you figure? What did the US get from NKA?

LeonDurham says

What did the US get from NKA?

A complacent, disarmed Kim, as opposed to one who wants to bomb us.

What do you feel we lost in the deal? Do you not remember the missile scare? That was where team Obama left us and where HRC was taking us.

LeonDurham says

The tax cut was a complete disaster

Do you think we should have 100% tax rates? Do you think we should never lower taxes if we have a deficit?

I'm trying to understand why the tax cut is a complete disaster. From my perspective as a small business owner it was a godsend that should result in more jobs and wealth for the average Joe's (like myself).

CBOEtrader says

A complacent, disarmed Kim, as opposed to one who wants to bomb us.

Really?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-45695654

"Ri Yong-ho told the UN General Assembly the sanctions were deepening North Korean mistrust of the US."

"He said the US was insisting on a "denuclearisation first" policy that "increased the level of sanctions".
"The recent deadlock is because the US relies on coercive measures which are lethal to trust-building," Mr Ri told the assembly."

Does that sound like complacent or disarmed?

CBOEtrader says

LeonDurham says

What did the US get from NKA?

A complacent, disarmed Kim, as opposed to one who wants to bomb us.

What do you feel we lost in the deal? Do you not remember the missile scare? That was where team Obama left us and where HRC was taking us.

Absolutely. The facts are clear here.

CBOEtrader says

working class people love the new Trump healthcare options

Please inform us. What exactly are the new Trump healthcare options ?

I know they removed some retirements of what health insurance actually pays for. I can see how that might make insurance less costly.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-healthcare-insurance/trump-administration-puts-skimpy-health-insurance-plans-in-place-idUSKBN1JF2AQ

Out of curiosity, do you know yet how the commissions will be on the health insurance plans that screw the people over if they ever need super expensive health care ?

CBOEtrader says

Do you think we should have 100% tax rates?

No, obviously not. I think there is probably some room in between current rates and 100%, however.

CBOEtrader says

Do you think we should never lower taxes if we have a deficit?

Nope. I don't believe in absolutes.

CBOEtrader says

I'm trying to understand why the tax cut is a complete disaster. From my perspective as a small business owner it was a godsend that should result in more jobs and wealth for the average Joe's (like myself).

Sure, let me help you out. The structure of the tax cut served to increase wealth disparity while simultaneously increasing the deficit significantly. It did nothing to spur job growth. It did nothing to help the economy. It's sole purpose was to borrow money from future generations and give it to the top 1%. And, as such, it was a horrible plan.

CBOEtrader says

Do you think we should have 100% tax rates?

No, obviously not. I think there is probably some room in between current rates and 100%, however.

CBOEtrader says

Do you think we should never lower taxes if we have a deficit?

Nope. I don't believe in absolutes.

CBOEtrader says

I'm trying to understand why the tax cut is a complete disaster. From my perspective as a small business owner it was a godsend that should result in more jobs and wealth for the average Joe's (like myself).

Sure, let me help you out. The structure of the tax cut served to increase wealth disparity while simultaneously increasing the deficit significantly. It did nothing to spur job growth. It did nothing to help the economy. It's sole purpose was to borrow money from future generations and give it to the top 1%. And, as such, it was a horrible plan.

CBOEtrader says

A complacent, disarmed Kim, as opposed to one who wants to bomb us.

Kim never wanted to bomb us. He wanted to play out a big drama with the tweeter and chief. He wanted to get paid by China and by us. He probably didn't insist on it, but somehow he managed to get Trump to basically kiss his ass on a global stage, implying that we think that a Kim is quite the dandy leader.

And what we get is little different than the previous 10 rounds of this game.

marcus says

I know they removed some retirements of what health insurance actually pays for.

? Please explain what you are talking about.

marcus says

Please inform us. What exactly are the new Trump healthcare options ?

Sure. Trump removed the individual mandate allowing a family or individual to choose a non-marketplace plan (in many counties there is only ONE marketplace plan) without being fined AND at the same time expanded the contract length of a product class called "short-term medical" from 3 months to 24 months. This expanded options for many millions from either choosing the one marketplace option or paying a fine, to many, many plans in each county. This is a huge difference for the consumer. This change literally allowed many, many consumers to afford coverage who could afford it in 2018.

marcus says

Out of curiosity, do you know yet how the commissions will be on the health insurance plans that screw the people over if they ever need super expensive health care ?

Price increases are spotty, large in some areas and moderate to same as 2018 in other areas. Nationwide price increases are less than previous years, but still significant. Health insurance prices are currently at insanity levels. $1500 to 2000/month for a family is normal, which is insanity for any working or middle class family. I can go find details and share in the next week or so.

LeonDurham says

The structure of the tax cut served to increase wealth disparity while simultaneously increasing the deficit significantly. It did nothing to spur job growth. It did nothing to help the economy. It's sole purpose was to borrow money from future generations and give it to the top 1%. And, as such, it was a horrible plan.

Yes. Definitely up there as possibly the single worst thing Trump has done. But environmental protection, health care, the massive increase in the swamp, the destruction of American norms of behavior, and the massively lowered international reputation of America and Americans. It's way too much to keep up with, while the media distracts us with Trumps tweets about the NFL, or perceived enemies, or about the amazing effect his tarrifs will have.

Even the Trump cucks are reluctant to brag about the awesome effects the tarrifs will have. Even they are not so sure about that. The GOP department of propaganda should get to work on that - generating better sound bites to send out to Fox, and Brietbart. Maybe telling us that if and when big inflation kicks in, it will not be the fault of the tarrifs. Nah, that doesn't make sense, why bring peoples attention to the obvious.

marcus says

the massive increase in the swamp, the destruction of American norms of behavior, and the massively lowered international reputation of America and Americans.

This is all propaganda BS. Literally the same accusations Breitbart males against obama... but this times true!!! (said every simpleton ever)

CBOEtrader says

? Please explain what you are talking about.

Okay.

The rule, which the U.S. Department of Labor will post Tuesday, allows small businesses and those who are self-employed to band together and buy lower-cost health insurance policies, similar to large employers.

But these insurance plans would not be subject to requirements under the Affordable Care Act (ACA), commonly called Obamacare, which included mandatory coverage for a set of 10 essential health benefits, such as maternity and newborn care, prescription drug costs and mental health treatment. They are expected to be far less expensive than Obamacare plans.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-healthcare-insurance/trump-administration-puts-skimpy-health-insurance-plans-in-place-idUSKBN1JF2AQ

This might not pertain to individual plans you sell. But it it did, I was thinking how classic it would be if the commissions were higher.

Brilliant right ? Lower health insurance cost by covering less. Kind of the reverse of what Obama tried to do. The people will love it.

Yes, Trump is such a genius.

marcus says

. But environmental protection, health care

I have already explained why your healthcare criticism is baseless. You want to try to explain why Trump is bad on the environment? Paris accord was a garbage agreement. Good on Trump for leaving that deal which benefited the elite power players at the detriment of the working man.

marcus says

But environmental protection

Yes its not much talked about because its not immediate and in your face. But the continued attack on environmental protections hand in hand with the promotion of fossil fuels, coal in particular serve the interests of the few; the latest being an attempt to allow exposure to higher levels of radiation, using junk science to gut regulation (mileage requirements on autos for one example) all these in general, may well turn out to be the most lasting and most harmful legacy of Trump and his minions in congress.

marcus says

This might not pertain to individual plans you sell.

No it does. This is a VERY GOOD change, which as I've already stated consumers are widely praising.

Your argument is "extra options is bad" which totally, completely baseless. The article you posted is pure propaganda. Notice it gives zero details and instead offers worthless rhetoric. It's written to make you hate trump for no reason.

Or perhaps you can explain why extra options are a bad thing for consumers? (Hint: you cant.)

Most Trump lies are white or gray, or qualify more as random, careless pufferies. They are not intended to harm, at worst to mildly persuade or brag.

The cold, malignant, black lies that the Dems have shown proficiency in recently are much more frightening.

I know you hate it when I just post someone elses research. But I'm not going to spend hours putting a report together for you.

26 Environmental Rules Being Rolled Back in the Trump Era

https://www.bna.com/26-environmental-rules-n73014477330/

I'm sure there are several from the last few months not on the list.

Trumps first EPA chief quit becasue of ethics scandals. Now we get another climate denialist who otherwise at least has experience at the EPA, in there to do Trump's bidding.

CBOEtrader says

Notice it gives zero details and instead offers worthless rhetoric. It's written to make you hate trump for no reason.

Or perhaps you can explain why extra options are a bad thing for consumers? (Hint: you cant

So you are calling not having to meet the coverage requirements of the ACA, extra options ?

I guess if you're selling it as supposedly good, then it's going to be best for you to believe the lies you tell when you sell it.

How does this work. Take away coverage, for cheaper plans, but then offer what had been required as extra ? I guess of you're upfront about what it doesn't cover (if you even know - (i.e. small print)) then you can feel good about it.

marcus says

I know you hate it when I just post someone elses research. But I'm not going to spend hours putting a report together for you.

Translation: I let others think for me.

Yeah sorry, I'm also not spending hours going through Trump hitpieces to know how they are lying to you. Choose one of your examples, get behind it and defend it. Otherwise just admit you dont think for yourself.

marcus says

26 Environmental Rules Being Rolled Back in the Trump Era

I'm not a Chemtrail conspiracy guy, but the honest facts are for the last decade or more. The South Florida sky has been a constant lattice work of Crisscrossing Jet Contrails.
The rain has been sporadic, and when it did rain they were biblical flooding all week long events. Since Trump killed the EPA it rains in South Florida on a regular schedule just like it always had before. We never got day long thunderstorms or week long Tropical depressions just sitting on top of us.
Now we're back 1, 2 or 3 quick flash showers everyday. The Summer greenery is the most lush it has ever been in over decade and not a crisscrossing pattern in the sky ever. Just lone jets flying their normal airport ascent and decent routes.

The EPA was evil they cause weather events to brainwash people with their global warming sea level rising bullshit.
When the truth is when Ice melts it adds to the weight of volume of the Ocean. Excess water is pushed into the seabed and into the earth. It creates Earth quakes.
That Indonesian village that ground liquefied under it was proof of that. The earth expands as the ice melts because the ice melt like all water seeks the lowest point on earth. The magnetic center. Even satellites claim Earths biggest mountains are getting taller every year. Not so the earth is pushing out, look at the geological fissures poping up around the world every other week the last five to ten years.

CBOEtrader says

Yeah sorry, I'm also not spending hours going through Trump hitpieces to know how they are lying to you. Choose one of your examples, get behind it and defend it. Otherwise just admit you dont think for yourself.

Classic. Admit it. You don't want to know. (applies to both conversations)

Trump has lowered pollution requirements for Coal burning factories and future cars. This is established fact. I trust that the facts listed in the bloomberg piece I posted are good. The list is far too expansive to get in to.

I agree with libertarians to an extent. But taken to the extreme, they are downright evil.

Tenpoundbass says

The EPA was evil they cause weather events to brainwash people with their global warming sea level rising bullshit.

Oh, there you go with Occams razor again.

marcus says

Trump has lowered pollution requirements for Coal burning factories and future cars. This is established fact.

It is established fact that Trump removed regulations, giving power back to entrepreneurs. You have yet to make a case that this is bad for the environment. Simply eliminating a regulations that "aims to help" a cause, does not mean that Trump is hurting that cause. More likely the regulation was simply more harmful than helpful. If you want to make a case against one of his decisions, please do so.

CBOEtrader says

marcus says

Trump has lowered pollution requirements for Coal burning factories and future cars. This is established fact.

It is established fact that Trump removed regulations, giving power back to entrepreneurs. You have yet to make a case that this is bad for the environment. Simply eliminating a regulations that "aims to help" a cause, does not mean that Trump is hurting that cause. More likely the regulation was simply more harmful than helpful. If you want to make a case against one of his decisions, please do so.

This is one of the points where I think discussion is warranted. I think clean coal is fine but there were a lot of regulations rolled back and it probably would take a while to go through each one. I am def more of a environmental protection (globull warming bs aside) and raw organic food guy, nothing better than fresh organic meat/produce/fruit. But it's asinine to prevent the betterment of coal and oil mining technology by decree, let them - including "renewable" energy - compete against each other and become cleaner and cheaper. Plus permitting more drilling not only caused a boom it also reduced dependency on foreign oil. When you have reserves like these it's plain stupid not to make use of them. And remember the most important thing for a man is to be a productive member of society by having a job, their dignity and feeding and taking care of their family. There's not enough meat here as well to make a case against Trump, but the specific items can certainly be discussed.

Obama is better for the environment, but much worse for the economy. I agree with the individual mandate for healthcare, but disagree with the level of socialization of health plans (i.e., making people with money subsidize the poor too much). His pompousness can be annoying, so I'll give you that. I love his transparency though and the fact that the dude works his butt off to get stuff done. Look at his trade deals. Overall, Trump is a WAY better president than Obama but certainly not perfect. You never get everything you want in a president or government.

CBOEtrader says

It is established fact that Trump removed regulations, giving power back to entrepreneurs. You have yet to make a case that this is bad for the environment. Simply eliminating a regulations that "aims to help" a cause, does not mean that Trump is hurting that cause. More likely the regulation was simply more harmful than helpful. If you want to make a case against one of his decisions, please do so.

It's easy to make the case. Here is a pretty good article detailing the rules that have been killed and the consequences.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/04/trump-emvironmental-rollback-epa-scrap-regulations

It's kind of funny that so many Trump supporters complain about California earmarking so much water for golf courses and farms when it was Trump that rolled back the regulation that kept water for people instead of golf courses.

mell says

but the specific items can certainly be discussed.

They wont bring up specifics though. The left wants to use it-piece journalism, which typically either throws so many links at you that you cant check the work, OR gives so little info that there is nothing to check. They will ignore nuance, ignore rationalization, ignore anything that doesnt equal = TRUMP IS A NAZI.

Thats the point. These are not meant to be legit criticisms. If they were, then the left would be able to defend the individual claims beyond "this journalist did my research for me, LOOK AT ALL THE LINKS".

I'm not by any means saying there isnt legit criticism of Trump. I am saying specifically that the mountains of fake news criticism make legit criticisms VERY DIFFICULT TO FIND. The left doesn't help by parroting the fake news rather than think for themselves.

Justice K is a great example. Plenty of legit criticisms about Kavanaugh. His personal life decisions are NOT on that list. By making this process about fake rape charges rather than legit criticisms, the left steals our opportunity for valiud debate. Their brainwashing is significantly lowering intellect of debate in our country. Very sad