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Perfect description of how public debate should be

By Patrick follow Patrick   2019 Aug 23, 4:55pm 563 views   33 comments   watch   nsfw   quote   share    


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/i-made-amends-with-pete-davidson-on-snl-but-thats-only-the-beginning/2018/11/13/e7314fb0-e77e-11e8-b8dc-66cca409c180_story.html

By Dan Crenshaw November 13, 2018
Dan Crenshaw, a former Navy SEAL, is a Republican representative-elect from Texas.

The past couple of weeks have been unusual for me, to say the least. After a year of hard campaigning for Congress in Texas and gradually entering the public sphere, I was hit by a sudden, blinding spotlight. But I have no complaints — it wasn’t as bad as some other challenges I’ve faced, like a sudden, blinding IED explosion. (See what I did there? “Saturday Night Live” has created a comedic monster.)

On the Nov. 3 show, SNL’s Pete Davidson mocked my appearance — “he lost his eye in war . . . or whatever,” Davidson said, referring to the eye patch I wear. His line about my looking like a “hit man in a porno movie” was significantly less infuriating, albeit a little strange. I woke up on the Sunday morning after the show to hundreds of texts about what Davidson had said. A lot of America wasn’t happy. People thought some lines still shouldn’t be crossed.

I agreed. But I also could not help but note that this was another chapter in a phenomenon that has taken complete control of the national discourse: outrage culture. It seems like every not-so-carefully-worded public misstep must be punished to the fullest extent, replete with soapbox lectures and demands for apologies. Anyone who doesn’t show the expected level of outrage will be labeled a coward or an apologist for bad behavior. I get the feeling that regular, hard-working, generally unoffended Americans sigh with exhaustion — daily.

Was I really outraged by SNL? Really offended? Or did I just think the comment about losing my eye was offensive? There is a difference, after all. I have been literally shot at before, and I wasn’t outraged. Why start now?

So I didn’t demand an apology and I didn’t call for anyone to be fired. That doesn’t mean the “war . . . or whatever” line was acceptable, but I didn’t have to fan the flames of outrage, either. When SNL reached out with an apology and an offer to be on the show, I wasn’t fully sold on the idea. It was going to be Veterans Day weekend, after all, and I had events with veterans planned. I asked if another weekend might work. No, they said, precisely because it was Veterans Day, it would be the right time to send the right message. They assured me that we could use the opportunity to send a message of unity, forgiveness and appreciation for veterans. And to make fun of Pete Davidson, of course.

"Saturday Night Live” doesn’t usually apologize when its satire offends. Here are unique moments when the crew offered an apology. (Taylor Turner/The Washington Post)
And that’s what we did. I was happy with how it worked out. But now what? Does it suddenly mean that the left and right will get along and live in utopian harmony? Maybe Saturday’s show made a tiny step in that direction, but I’m not naive. As a country, we still have a lot of work to do. We need to agree on some basic rules for civil discourse.

There are many ideas that we will never agree on. The left and the right have different ways of approaching governance, based on contrasting philosophies. But many of the ultimate goals — economic prosperity, better health care and education, etc. — are the same. We just don’t share the same vision of how to achieve them.

How, then, do we live together in this world of differing ideas? For starters, let’s agree that the ideas are fair game. If you think my idea is awful, you should say as much. But there is a difference between attacking an idea and attacking the person behind that idea. Labeling someone as an “-ist” who believes in an “-ism” because of the person’s policy preference is just a shortcut to playground-style name-calling, cloaked in political terminology. It’s also generally a good indication that the attacker doesn’t have a solid argument and needs a way to end debate before it has even begun.

Similarly, people too often attack not just an idea but also the supposed intent behind an idea. That raises the emotional level of the debate and might seem like it strengthens the attacker’s side, but it’s a terrible way to make a point. Assuming the worst about your opponents’ intentions has the effect of demonizing their ideas, removing the need for sound counter-reasoning and fact-based argument. That’s not a good environment for the exchange of ideas.

Former service members elected in the 2018 midterms join a body that once consisted of more than 70 percent veterans. (Patrick Martin/The Washington Post)
When all else fails, try asking for forgiveness, or granting it. On Saturday, Pete Davidson and SNL made amends. I had some fun. Everyone generally agreed that a veteran’s wounds aren’t fair game for comedy. Maybe now we should all try to work toward restoring civility to public debate.


I would definitely vote for this guy if I had the chance. I hope he keeps going for higher office. Trump has been great for US peace and prosperity, but not so great for civil debate. Make we can get an even better president than Trump.

https://crenshawforcongress.com

1   Patrick   ignore (0)   2019 Aug 23, 4:59pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Best two lines:

But there is a difference between attacking an idea and attacking the person behind that idea. Labeling someone as an “-ist” who believes in an “-ism” because of the person’s policy preference is just a shortcut to playground-style name-calling, cloaked in political terminology. It’s also generally a good indication that the attacker doesn’t have a solid argument and needs a way to end debate before it has even begun.
2   HEYYOU   ignore (34)   2019 Aug 23, 5:25pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Read it.
Do I need to handle this or would someone else like to start.
Some glaring points that could be addressed.
3   Fortwaynemobile   ignore (2)   2019 Aug 23, 5:29pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Liberals are more into shouting down and destroying society. Because they are failures, and failure is shame. They want everyone to fail with them for equality.
4   Patrick   ignore (0)   2019 Aug 23, 5:47pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

HEYYOU says
Read it.
Do I need to handle this or would someone else like to start.
Some glaring points that could be addressed.


Sure, if you can reply in a way that addresses points and isn't just name-calling and personal attacks, that would be great. The whole point of the essay is how counter-productive name-calling and personal attacks are.
5   theoakman   ignore (0)   2019 Aug 23, 6:46pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Dan just did a great interview on Joe Rogan. You get to know a lot about him from it.

6   Quigley   ignore (2)   2019 Aug 23, 9:22pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

This guy is great! I’ve been following him for a bit and he comes across as thoughtful and intelligent with a great sense of humor and a balanced view on things. I’d vote for him for any office he sought. Yes, over our current POTUS who doesn’t seem to want the job anymore.
7   APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   ignore (43)   2019 Aug 23, 9:36pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

It would be great to see this guy cut out Trump's heart and eat it before raping Ivanka and beheading Jughead.
8   mell   ignore (3)   2019 Aug 24, 5:29am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

While I agree that he is displaying great attitude and character I will say if it were me in his shoes I would have knocked the sniveling leftoid SNLer out and then skull fucked one of his eyes with a dead skunk hardened by rigor mortis. Same for the piker asshole.
9   Expat01   ignore (2)   2019 Aug 24, 5:54am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

personal
10   Expat01   ignore (2)   2019 Aug 24, 6:02am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Bur more seriously, this whole white male, republican, deplorable as victim is ludicrous. Hundreds of years of shitting on black, latinos and women is being over-turned and Trump's core is afraid. They start marching and shouting things like "Send them back" or "Jews won't replace us." They wear their swaztikas and white supremacy garb, carry their guns, and say they will kill blacks and jews.

Then Democrats and liberals stand up and say, "Hey, perhaps you should not be so hateful and racist." This is turned into the Greatest Attack on Civil Freedom in History and white victim-hood is born.

Try posting an innocuous opinion or a fact that disagrees with right-wing views and read the joyful comments from KKK members, Trumpturds, neo-nazis, white supremacists and other low-brow mullett-heads. "Die libtard!" "If you don't like America, fuck off to Africa." "Death to all Democrats.!" "We have guns and will shot you , you America-hating fascist commie scumbags."

It's funny how the right accuses the left of being hyperviolent and using slurs and insults when the right also spends an inordinate amount of time whining about how the Left is too PC (therefore would not use insults or curses) and pussies who can't fight. This cognitive dissonance is all part of the larger Trumpturd delusion about their lives and why they are fucked.

So, don't ask me to be polite. I tried. I gave up and now engage Trumpturds in the language they seem to love and the only one they seem to be able to use. And I am not even a Democrat or poor. I am a wealthy capitalist, but I am educated so perhaps that makes the difference.
11   theoakman   ignore (0)   2019 Aug 24, 6:50am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Expat01 says
Bur more seriously, this whole white male, republican, deplorable as victim is ludicrous. Hundreds of years of shitting on black, latinos and women is being over-turned and Trump's core is afraid. They start marching and shouting things like "Send them back" or "Jews won't replace us." They wear their swaztikas and white supremacy garb, carry their guns, and say they will kill blacks and jews.

Then Democrats and liberals stand up and say, "Hey, perhaps you should not be so hateful and racist." This is turned into the Greatest Attack on Civil Freedom in History and white victim-hood is born.

Try posting an innocuous opinion or a fact that disagrees with right-wing views and read the joyful comments from KKK members, Trumpturds, neo-nazis, white supremacists and other low-brow mullett-heads. "Die libtard!" "If you don't like America, fuck off to Africa." "Death to all Democrats.!" "We have guns and will shot you , you America-hating fascist commie scumbags."
<...


You know, if you'd stop playing the victim, you would take advantage of all the fellowships and programs offered to African Americans like the ones I went to grad school with. They got a $30k a year stipend to earn a PhD and employers were lining up to hire them.
12   6rdB   ignore (0)   2019 Aug 24, 7:51am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

theoakman says
You know, if you'd stop playing the victim, you would take advantage of all the fellowships and programs offered to African Americans like the ones I went to grad school with. They got a $30k a year stipend to earn a PhD and employers were lining up to hire them.

Fake News - we all know that African Americans can't get any scholarships, are not hired in preference to everyone else etc
13   Onvacation   ignore (4)   2019 Aug 24, 9:01am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Expat01 says
Then Democrats and liberals stand up and say, "Hey, perhaps you should not be so hateful and racist."


In what world are democrats not hateful and racist?
15   HEYYOU   ignore (34)   2019 Aug 24, 10:26am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says

Sure, if you can reply in a way that addresses points and isn't just name-calling and personal attacks, that would be great. The whole point of the essay is how counter-productive name-calling and personal attacks are.


No name calling for this one comment.
He's a Republican. Govt. employee 2006 -2016, presently a govt. employee,paid by tax dollars.
Republicans elected President "King of personal attacks" that lies,was able to dodge the draft 5 times,said he would sexually assault women & cheated on his wives.
Would he be willing to openly & loudly debate over Trump for his words & actions or ask other Republicans to openly & publicly debate Trump's actions,just among his Party members.
Has he condemned the military & elected Republicans for being in Afghanistan where America had no business? How many innocent Afghan men,women & children died at the hands of his military while he received awards? Did any of the unarmed innocents get to publicly debate their deaths at the hands of his military. How many times has he held huge debates on the lie of WMD & the useless deaths of his fellow American servicemen? Will he in the future?

Talking debate rules is not the same as debating & having to face counter arguments against those one's supports,especially when it comes to life & death situations.
Where can I get the book he wrote on proper public debate?

Choosing to support someone & ignoring their words & actions in FREEDOM.
16   Patrick   ignore (0)   2019 Aug 24, 10:27am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Expat01 says
So, don't ask me to be polite.


@Expat01 Please read the essay again.

Especially this line:

there is a difference between attacking an idea and attacking the person behind that idea.
17   Expat01   ignore (2)   2019 Aug 24, 10:42am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick,
Where are you when the Trumpturds are calling for lynching the niggers and kikes and other such comments?
I will ignore your call for civility and the hypocrisy of posting such an article and then trying to play the victim. Most "debates" here or on sites like ZH rarely remain sane or polite past the initial comments. Suggest that perhaps people should not hate and you are immediately called a "faggy libtard" or something.

The idea is wonderful. I agree with that. I also agree that ad hominem attacks are not part of serious debates or discussions. But the left did not start this mud-slinging and I won't let it slide either. If the right-wing wants a safe space, they can build a secret club house and wear their white hoods in peace.
18   CornPoptheOriginalGangster   ignore (5)   2019 Aug 24, 10:49am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Expat01 says
So, don't ask me to be polite. I tried. I gave up and now engage Trumpturds in the language they seem to love and the only one they seem to be able to use. And I am not even a Democrat or poor. I am a wealthy capitalist, but I am educated so perhaps that makes the difference.


I'm over 7 feet tall. And if I was in Scotland, I'd shoot fireballs from my eyes and lightening out of my ass and consume the English.
19   Expat   ignore (0)   2019 Aug 24, 10:58am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote        

personal
20   CornPoptheOriginalGangster   ignore (5)   2019 Aug 24, 11:02am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Expat01 says

Then Democrats and liberals stand up and say, "Hey, perhaps you should not be so hateful and racist."


LOL. Actually, Democrats are ginning up the pitifully tiny numbers of White Supremacists that haven't changed from their token quantity in decades.

Their current mendacious lie is that "WS groups are growing in number", distracting from the fact that their numbers of members are pitiful, and even if they tripled, are still pitiful. And that most are prison gangs formed to protect members against Black Gangs.

They're attacking "The concept of Time" and "Punctuality" as Racist!

They're pushing Drag Kid performances in Bars on network television.

They're claiming dressing up as a Sheik, an Indian Brave, 70s Ghetto Pimp, etc. on Halloween is White Supremacist Racism on par with the Holocaust and Slavery.

They fall for ludicrous and obvious trolling attempts like the "OK Sign" and "Drink Milk"

They are allowing biologically male individuals to compete as Women (and of course, the 200th ranked State Male beats the shit out of the 1st ranked female in Track or swiimming or wrestling or whatever)

They are claiming we should have wide open borders and not refuse any Guatemalan fleeing low coffee prices or their own country's crime and poverty problems - not actual oppression.

Now they are refusing to let a Funeral Parlour set dress standards for biologically male/female individuals, and right now in the courts, Translobby Socialists are trying to allow a man with lipstick, beard, in a dress to officiate at funerals, or the company will be fined by the EEOC out of existence and your loved one's funeral turned into a Rainbow Clown Show, with 32 Honks.

21   jazz_music   ignore (12)   2019 Aug 24, 12:05pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

theoakman says
You know, if you'd stop playing the victim
That's a non sequitur for the sake of sandbagging a personal attack.

So you must see truth which bothers you in expat's comment. http://patrick.net/post/1326765/?c=1611942

about "white male, republican, deplorable as victim is ludicrous"

The whole "dominant culture as victim schtick" is increasingly boring especially to fellow white men.
22   jazz_music   ignore (12)   2019 Aug 24, 12:12pm     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
phenomenon that has taken complete control of the national discourse: outrage culture.
"Outrage culture" continues to be effective to keep tribesmen from straying off the plantation.

It is necessary to keep members outraged permanently. You cannot think in such a state. You can only echo the outrage or declare yourself a member of "the hated other."

There never fails to be a fresh mythology on why some other must be hated.

But you can kick every foreigner out of America right now and your prospects for your own economy will not improve. This is childishly simple to prove.

The hated "China" will not be affected by tariffs one bit beyond their own theatrics of reposturing.

So start talking about standing up to the corruption that keeps us poor.

THAT, my friend, IS THE PUBLIC DEBATE THAT ALL THE BULLSHIT EXISTS TO KEEP US FROM HAVING.

So that is what public debate should be.

Have I been promoting this for enough years yet?
23   CornPoptheOriginalGangster   ignore (5)   2019 Aug 24, 12:19pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

jazz_music says
The whole "dominant culture as victim schtick" is increasingly boring especially to fellow white men.


You mean, the whole "we're still leftists in rebellion, and social justice isn't the harshly enforced norm in Big Tech, Big Academia, Government Agencies on MostState AND Federal Levels, and in the PR/HR departments of most Corporations, as well as the Legacy Media."

As for fellow White Men, White Men voted for the Liberator and Patriot Donald Trump by a strong majority.

The nice, weak, bowtied gentlemen like George Will are the Wave of the Past. We're assholes now, and slap back. We're adopting Alinsky tactics.

Psst, you're the authority now. Prepare to be questioned.
24   CornPoptheOriginalGangster   ignore (5)   2019 Aug 24, 12:22pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

jazz_music says
THAT, my friend, IS THE PUBLIC DEBATE THAT ALL THE BULLSHIT EXISTS TO KEEP US FROM HAVING.


Yeah, too busy discussing Toxic Masculinity, and how landing on Mars and Heterosexuality is Patriarchy.

Not in the Womyn For Womyn Bookstore, but on NBC. CNN. NPR.
25   6rdB   ignore (0)   2019 Aug 24, 12:44pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

jazz_music says
It is necessary to keep members outraged permanently. You cannot think in such a state. You can only echo the outrage or declare yourself a member of "the hated other."

that is absolutely true. Was started by leftists, but now the Right has got tired of it and is reciprocating in kind.

jazz_music says
So start talking about standing up to the corruption that keeps us poor.

If people would find issues they agree on, then may be something would change. For example, most reasonable people on left and right are against permanent wars and excessive military spending.
26   Quigley   ignore (2)   2019 Aug 24, 12:45pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Expat01 says
I am a wealthy capitalist, but I am educated so perhaps that makes the difference.


I doubt all of that. You seem like a butthurt poor barista to me, with dreams of communist utopia where for some reason the party will put you in charge. Weak.
27   Patrick   ignore (0)   2019 Aug 24, 1:18pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I'd flag that, but I'm not sure I want Expat01 on the site. He just keeps insulting other users personally.
28   Patrick   ignore (0)   2019 Aug 24, 1:19pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

jazz_music says
"Outrage culture" continues to be effective to keep tribesmen from straying off the plantation.

It is necessary to keep members outraged permanently. You cannot think in such a state. You can only echo the outrage or declare yourself a member of "the hated other."

There never fails to be a fresh mythology on why some other must be hated.


I agree with you 1000% on that @jazz_music
29   TrumpingTits   ignore (2)   2019 Aug 24, 2:45pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Fortwaynemobile says
Because they are failures


Yes, this is why I personally refer to the Democrat Party as the Coalition of Life's Losers

But this doesn't excuse the high income libtards in Silicon Valley. In their case, they think of themselves as failures for some reason. Oddly.
30   jazz_music   ignore (12)   2019 Aug 24, 3:33pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TrumpingTits says
In their case, they think of themselves as failures for some reason.
Maybe it's because of what they hear impenetrable morons talking about who claim that they possess the "red pill."
31   Fortwaynemobile   ignore (2)   2019 Aug 24, 4:12pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Some of those guys act like unelected protectors of the pretend oppressed.

TrumpingTits says
Fortwaynemobile says
Because they are failures


Yes, this is why I personally refer to the Democrat Party as the Coalition of Life's Losers

But this doesn't excuse the high income libtards in Silicon Valley. In their case, they think of themselves as failures for some reason. Oddly.
32   APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   ignore (43)   2019 Aug 25, 4:42pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I tried asking people to be nice but that didn't improve things.

What if I asked people to be snuggy?
33   WookieMan   ignore (4)   2019 Aug 26, 4:14am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

HEYYOU says
Republicans elected President "King of personal attacks" that lies,was able to dodge the draft 5 times,said he would sexually assault women & cheated on his wives.


Lol! You just described boomers! Like 50% of them. Tough to be upset with Trump when he's just living the same life most older dudes live.

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